[Vern Smith]

Last night my TM-1P umbrella tool changer forgot where it was. The changer moved to the spindle and clamped onto a tool. Unfortunately, the spindle moved up before the changer retreated to it's home position. The result was ugly as one would expect. The spindle pulled the changer up about and inch or so before the fingers spread enough to release the tool with a huge bang. The machine alarmed out at about the same moment with code 125 - shuttle fault.

I did the recovery sequence with no problem and everything works although out of alignment. I'm sure everything can be straightened out and brought into specks but my concern is the switch/sensor/gizmo that failed and will doubtlessly fail again.

I would appreciate any information on this problem, and particularly what switch/sensor/gizmo has gone intermittent and needs immediate replacement.

Thanks Vern

[Ken_Shea]

Geeesh Vern, very sorry to hear that, you still under warranty ?

[SORCHEROR]

sound like the retension fingers in the spindle didnt release the tool before lifting up
maybe a malfunction of the air selenoid,if you dont have warranty,i still suggest calling a hass service tech,as you stated the problem will repeat im sure

[SORCHEROR]

how long have you run this machine before this happen?tm-1p cant be that old

[Vern Smith]

The machine is 14 month old so no warranty coverage unless someone at Haas feels sorry for me. I'll look up the hours on the machine if someone tells me where to find the information.

I've called the local HFO and they are coming tomorrow - I hope. I'm just trying to be well informed so I can monitor their approach to the problem. I'm a pretty good mechanic and a poor machinist. I purchased the Haas manual ( $50.00 ) and could probably do it myself but I don't have any parts ( like the fingers ) and the HFO assured me they would come with all the necessary spares.

Vern

[Matt@RFR]

I'll look up the hours on the machine if someone tells me where to find the information.

Vern

Current Commands, page down twice.

[awesome83]

More than likely a shuttle in or out switch. Could possibly be a Tool clamp or unclamp switch. Either way the machine thought that it was doing the correct thing, so i doubt it was a stuck valve (if it was stuck it wouldn't have held on to the tool, and the head wouldn't move up)

Sounds to me like a shuttle out switch is bad, the head doesn't move up till the shuttle is all the way out, something triggered that switch. (short, chip, ect.)

If you would like you can remove the tools and just run tool changes and watch the DIAGNOSTICS PAGE, and monitor the switches, and see if they operate correctly.

You can also Put a tool in the spindle (manually) and watch the tool clamp and unclamp switches (in Diagnostics) to see if they are working right.

More than likely its an intermittent problem....and i would start with the shuttle switches. Hopefully your tool changer plate didn't get bent, you can try to measure it at different pockets to see if it has been.

Hope this helps

[Vern Smith]

The Haas folks arrive tomorrow. I appreciate the information Awesome83, I will be sure the Haas tech checks the switches and potential problems you are suggesting.

Matt, I'll check the hours tomorrow.

I played with it some today and it looks like whatever triggers the fingers to spread and allow the tool to be snatched up by the spindle did not function or the spindle moved up prematurely. I was only dealing with empty pockets today so naturally everything worked splendidly until I used the pocket with the bent fingers. They are bent to the point they rub the bottom of the spindle during a change. Hopefully the plate is not bent. When I get the Haas price for a new one I will probably try to straighten it.

Vern

[HuFlungDung]

The spare fingers on are pocket 15

I use 1 through 12 mostly, and once in a while I'll work backwards using 20,19,18 etc. I'll bet I've never used 15 yet

[Vern Smith]

Hu,

Those of us just learning the art of creative machining restrict ourselves to machines with less than 11 tool pockets. This way we can use our fingers without having to take off our shoes.

Your idea of reserving a pocket for spare parts has merit but a close and convenient shelf could work just as well. With full time duties on the OneCNC forum you will be a busy guy for the next few weeks. I appreciate your contribution, keeps me from becoming depressed over the situation.

Vern

[JoBwan]

I played with it some today and it looks like whatever triggers the fingers to spread and allow the tool to be snatched up by the spindle did not function or the spindle moved up prematurely.

Vern

Vern,
I had this problem on a few of our machines. Here's what I found on the gripper fingers. If you remove the turret from the machine and lay it on a bench. Remove the stripper bolt that holds each gripper in place. Be cautious, as the grippers are "slightly" under pressure from the springs. Inside the gripper fingers there is a bushing that corrodes and rusts to the gripper itself. Probably from moisture in the air?? I would use a 5/16" punch with a hammer to punch the bushing out. Polish the O.D. of the bushing and the I.D. of the gripper, lube it and the bolt with grease, and re-assemble. It should "NOT" restrict the movement of the gripper. I would also repeat this for every tool pocket, as if 1 was corroded, there are more. You may fix one today, but tomorrow another may do the same damage. I have even put this procedure in my P.M.(Pedictive Maintenance) as a task to do on a yearly basis. It saves thousands of $$$, instead of having your HFO doing it, as it takes 3-4 hours to to inspect, polish, and re-assemble. Hope this gives you a little more insight of the "gripper problem". Good luck!!:cheers:

[HAILINHAAS]

Did you do anything different when the machine crashed .. pushed feed hold, anything that would maybe contribute to it not functioning correctly. Did the tool stick in the spindle. If that tool was being used for long periods and got hot it might of got stuck in the spindle. The machine looks for the signals and does not move until the conditions are met.

[Vern Smith]

I was setting up tools for a new job, loading and unloading tools through MDI using atc fwd. Nothing was hot. The tool holder has scuff marks from being pulled through the forks. The changer has never been crashed and this is the first time there has been any problem with it. My concern is the intermittent nature of it. Everything works now excluding the station with the bent forks, of course.

I appreciate your interest and will give you the results of today's repair efforts, assuming the guy shows up, he's currently an hour late.

Vern

[HAILINHAAS]

Damn grimlins. Yes, please let us know what it turns out to be.

[Edster]

Sorry to hear about the toolchanger. I had a TM-1 and I liked the way the grippers in the tool carosel gripped the tool using a spring, instead of a one piece clip that wears out.

The current commands page down twice hour meter can be reset. Press param/dgnos twice then page down once, this isn't user resettable.

[Geof]

Have a look at the proximity sensors for Shuttle In and Shuttle Out to see if they have any little chips on them. I had a recurring malfunction on a SuperMini and it was due to a chip floating in a drop of coolant hanging off the sensor. When the machine vibrate the drop would jiggle and the chip would trip the sensor.

Another thing is check that the crank that moves the shuttle is tight on the output shaft of the gearmotor. The same SuperMini kept giving a shuttle fault because this arm was loose and it could move out slightly taking it a bit further away from the sensor.

[Vern Smith]

The problem with the tool changer is neither repaired nor solved. The Haas tech arrived armed with new fingers which were expected to be bent and needing replacement. The old fingers were not bent but I ask him to change them while he was there and that would give me a pair of spares. I thought this would be a good idea since from reading the service manual and talking to the tech the fingers are supposed to be the weak link and fail at $8.00 a pop rather than something expensive.

Well, there seems to have been a change in philosophy since the service manual was written. All the damage was in the plate or carousel, the replacement of which is not mentioned in the manual. This guy was bent up almost a 1/4" at the pocket that self destructed tapering down to near normal two pockets away on either side. This guy is $499.00 plus shipping from CA and of course a 5 hour round return trip.

The recommended course of action was to hand change tools until the new part arrived. I requested that the changer be adjusted to function with the 7 good pockets and used as much as I can use it. My rational is that there is a serious problem somewhere and my best hope is for it to self destruct again before I have a new plate installed for it to bend up again.

Naturally, Haas was not thrilled with my idea but the machine's a little over a month out of warranty so they don't carry much weight around here at the moment.

I've run the machine for 8 hours since the tech left and every tool change was fine. I'm patiently waiting for the next big bang.

I should also note that my title implies that there was a crash and after a thorough reading of the manual which laboriously describes each category of tool changer crash, this was not a crash. It was a simple malfunction in the middle of an automatic sequence.

I checked the run hours on the machine and they are less then 350.

Tomorrow I will go hat in hand to the fellows in Oxnard and plead my case. Today was over $600.00 and the up coming replacement will surly push the total to nearly $2,000.00.

Sympathetic responses are welcome. :violin:

Vern

[HuFlungDung]

What controls the air to the Tool Release Piston? Are there switches up there to monitor movement of the drawbar? That seems to me to be what failed to occur is actuation of the drawbar.

Were you toolchanging so fast that your compressor couldn't keep up?

[SORCHEROR]

vern, you said this happen during the manual loading of tools,correct?using the atc forward button and hand loading?to limit my own mistakes and confusing the machine also,i never load tool this way,i always use an mdi command and stick them in the spindle and let the machine put them in the carrasel,once i pushed either the wrong button or two many too fast and lightly crashed my changer,so i only load and unload using this method now,dont know if this applies to your case or not,sounds like it may
good luck
steve

[SORCHEROR]

vern, i forgot to mention another time my changer crashed,anyone with a hass with similar umbrella changer should check it out too,the arm on the changer motor which moves the changer in and out is monuted on the motor with a keyway with a setscrew,my set srew vibrated loose alowing the arm to float in and out,one day the arm rubbed on the back support and the hung up and stopped in mid cycle,maybe this is why your changer didnt retract?check the arm for front to back movement,if loose put it in the middle and tighten the set screw,its only happen to me the one time and its fine now