[Geof]

Not that I want to add to any sense of panic but I thought all you cheery Brits should see this if you haven't seen it already.

I think most likely a similar situation is lurking for us.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ity-years.html

[fizzissist]

So Geof, you're a regular on Milloy's too, I see....

Patrick Michaels is talking about sulfate aerosols and climate models, and publications like Nature turning into rags of doom....

"..Call us skeptics, but we have grave doubts that the corrections to the observed global temperature history will result in a lessening in the overall confidence that is proclaimed that climate change is manifesting itself even worse than we imagined. After all, there is an overwhelming, odds-busting tendency for publications in the journal Nature to report that things are tending worse (rather than better) than we ever imagined. In an unbiased world, the expectation should be 50-50 that publications in Nature would find things either better or worse than the expectations. In reality, the publication ratio is about 10 to 1 for the worse side. We have a bad feeling, that despite the initial optimism, that the outcome of the Thompson et al. findings will ultimately prove to increase the tally on the worse-than-expected side of things..."

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/in...dels/#more-330

[Kipper]

Hey Geof, I'm no cheery Brit....I'm miser...able doom gloom £10 a gallon sort of miserable......Looks over shoulder...Crap no navy...looks left...crap no army...OK lets go 3rd world...loss of Empire was never this cruel! Gasifier plans at the ready brb just off to watch "The Day After Tomorrow" pmsl

[Geof]

Hey Geof, I'm no cheery Brit....

Whadda ya mean? All Brits are cheery; stiff upper lip, what ho, pip pip and all that.

[martinw]

Not that I want to add to any sense of panic but I thought all you cheery Brits should see this if you haven't seen it already.

]

Dear Geof,

No panic here, just a cheeky sense of fatalism (brings violin from case and stares at distant flames etc..)

Well, we may be at risk if Russia turns off the UK supplies of natural gas, and maybe France will sell their nuclear electricity to another, higher, bidder.

Yes, it could get a bit inconvenient when the computers all pack up,

BUT,

the UK has a whole shed load of coal.

(Further squeakings from the fiddle, horizons burning etc..)

Best wishes,
Martin

[Geof]

...BUT,

the UK has a whole shed load of coal......

True, but as the article points out the EU will not let you burn that nasty stuff, and it will be necessary to build a whole bunch of new generating stations, and start large scale coal mining again, without a large workforce willing to tolerate the conditions in underground mines.

[handlewanker]

Like it has been said before, you've got too many people, and I mean it in the nicest possible way.

Try to reason out my thinking pattern, when the chips are down, anyone with a bit of self survival will be down on the floor picking them up, no matter if they've been walked on.
What do I mean?

When it comes to the crunch, most of you will just take the next course of action, and that will only happen when the time comes.

So take heart, all you people, life will be beautifull no matter what the doom watchers say, just tighten the old belt a notch or two, whistle a happy tune.

PS, When the ship is going down it might be a good idea to dump overboard all of the excess rubbish taking up room and absorbing resources.
Uno Hoo.

[martinw]

True, but as the article points out the EU will not let you burn that nasty stuff, and it will be necessary to build a whole bunch of new generating stations, and start large scale coal mining again, without a large workforce willing to tolerate the conditions in underground mines.

Dear Geof,

I could be wrong, but ( I think) the majority of UK coal mines were "put out of action" by a previous prime minister about 25 years ago, entirely for political reasons.

At the time, I read an article in a newspaper ( OK, OK, not the most reliable source, but in the pre-internet era, probably better than most compared to today), which said that a coal mine is useless once the owners turn off the pumps which keep out the groundwater. Once the levels are flooded, it is probably more economical to sink an entirely new main shaft and start again from scratch. If my memory serves me...(and it probably does not), somebody mentioned a figure of £30,000 per metre for a main shaft twenty five years ago. Economists can make adjustments for inflation.

The sums of money needed to re-galvanise the UK coal industry are pretty huge, but, if there is no nuclear capacity, what else is there?

When "push comes to shove", and the lights are going out, nobody is going to give a rat's #ss about pollution, or the working conditions of those on the coal face.

(Puts down Stradivarius)

Best wishes,

Martin

[Geof]

.... which said that a coal mine is useless once the owners turn off the pumps which keep out the groundwater. Once the levels are flooded, it is probably more economical to sink an entirely new main shaft and start again from scratch......Martin

I have seen this claim elsewhere, and it makes no sense to me. Surely if it is possible to pump fast enough to keep grounwater out while it is operating all that is needed for a flooded mine is pump faster for a while. I can't help thinking pumping water is easier than breaking rock for a new shaft.

But you are correct with the comment about the posterior of a rat.

[handlewanker]

Geof, I think if you pump the water out too quick the pressure of the ground water will just collapse the shaft walls before the water drains out.

This is like boring a hole in the sand down on the beach and just keeping the water out, but if the hole fills up it saturates the surrounding sand and it becomes subject to fluidization.
Ian.

[Geof]

Geof, I think if you pump the water out too quick the pressure of the ground water will just collapse the shaft walls before the water drains out....Ian.

Okay, I see now. You would have to pump the water out incredibly slowly so you created a declining pressure gradient around shaft.

[Geof]

....a coal mine is useless once the owners turn off the pumps which keep out the groundwater. Once the levels are flooded, it is probably more economical to sink an entirely new main shaft and start again from scratch....Martin

After replying to Ian's post I had a brain wave...marvellous what a glass of Merlot can do.

If coal mining did start up again in any big way it would be much more mechanized than in the past; maybe even to the extent that no people would go underground only tele-mechanisms (I refuse to call them robots because they are not.) run by operators on the surface. If they can shoot bad guys in Ahghanistan from a computer console in California, mining coal remotely should be a snap.

The technology to build remote machines working under several hundreds or thousands of feet of water pressure has been worked out and is in regular use on deep sea oil rigs.Transferring it to coal mining machines that could work flooded shafts should be comparatively easy.

[handlewanker]

You don't mean Batman, that we send down deep sea vehicles and just mine the coal as if it's under the sea? What would the Unions say?

I suppose the spoil and coal could be brought up by an air lift instead of mine cars, no gas problems, no water flooding problems, no ventilation problems, no lighting problems.

I don't suppose this would be a better way to mine coal, iron any minerals deep down with a mechanical device, by intentionally flooding the mine and have the mechanical digger just wending its way through the flooded corridors, having no weight problem as it could be made boyant and drag a huge tube with digger teeth to grind up the soil and suck the goods up to be blown to the surface by compressed air, like a giant earth worm.

WOW, I'm going to get this one patented, but I suppose the Chinese were doing it in the tenth century by using a bucket line which led on to the village well invention with a single bucket on the end of a rope, now used in practically all villages throughout the world.
Uno Hoo.

[Geof]

....this would be a better way to mine coal, iron any minerals deep down with a mechanical device, by intentionally flooding the mine and have the mechanical digger just wending its way through the flooded corridors, having no weight problem as it could be made boyant and drag a huge tube with digger teeth to grind up the soil and suck the goods up to be blown to the surface by compressed air, like a giant earth worm.....

Sounds absolutely crazy...but it would probably work.

Wreak havoc on groundwater however; wouldn't suggest doing it on sulfide ores.

[martinw]

Dear Geof and Ian,

This idea of sub-aqueous mining of flooded pits is pretty impressive. It took me a while to understand why fast pumping out would be a bad idea, but I get it now.

Another reason for keeping the shafts and levels flooded (I guess) is that whatever is being crushed by gravity in a conventional mine is pressing against air, while the flooded version is pressing against water. All those pit-props will have a holiday, (for a while).

Best wishes,

Martin

[Mike Horne]

It may be that the materials used either for shoring or the bolts in the ceiling have been attacked by the water, and all that will need to be both inspected and replaced. Costly! Badly cemented bolts have caused highway deaths when tunnels collapse... and the mine bolts were probably never intended for such duration in service or abuse. The other is that removing the water removes any bouyancy that may have been preventing collapses.

But get a whole bunch of 6 inch high volume pumps... given enough diesel and time, I don't see any pile of water they can't defeat.

[martinw]

Oh well,

This is a bit off-topic, but there is some great stuff about Cornish mines.

Levant was closed a long time ago, but Geevor was still going in the 1960s. The problem was that the levels of Levant (disused) were leaking into the adjacent mine, Geevor.

http://www.tinmining.co.uk/breach.htm

Best wishes,


Martin

[Mike Horne]

I'm wrong... have to plug the ocean before pumping

[martinw]

Dear Mike Horne,

It was a neat trick with the dye though, was it not?

The main shaft is about 1800 feet (approx) vertically, and the mine head is on a cliff. I went there a couple of years ago, and I would guess that it is 150 feet above sea level maximum. Could be wrong.

What is really incredible is the depths to which those miners went below, and out into the Atlantic. The level that leaked was just grazing the sea bed: there were many more hundreds of feet deeper.

Brave men.

Best wishes,

Martin

Best

[handlewanker]

It just goes to show what lengths some will go to get the resources for pure profit not survival.

I never heard of a rich coal or tin miner, or any other miner, unless it was someone who was called a "miner" because he/she owned a mine, (more likely).

If you want to see the lengths people will go to get a living in the mining sense just watch the series directed by Godfrey reggio called Koyannisqatsi, Powaqatsi and Naqoyqatsi, pretty thought provoking.
Uno Hoo.