[BearKraft]

Hello,
I am new to this, but not new to woodworking. I build custom duck calls as a hobby as well as furniture from time to time. I have become extremely interested in Homemade CNC Routers, but have no experience whatsoever other than being a redneck and fixing things without paying someone else to do it!!!

Anyways, I have a question, or an idea. Would someone be willing to let me know if this is possible, or how to do this? My big thing is I like to know how much everything is going to cost before I do it!

I want to build a 3 axis rotary CNC Router to engrave duck calls with. I am thinking that I could use my wood working lathe, attach an x axis moving gantry to the cast iron bed with a z axis for the router upright. The complication that I am concerned about is that I want to run the y axis to spin the lathe as the router engraves in straight lines with the x and z axis. Is this possible? I don't see the point of having the router move side to side when it is going to stay in the same place (top dead center)anyway. So back and forth, up and down, and spin should be satisfactory for what I want to do as long as I can find a controller for it. Does anyone know of a controller that this would work with? I am also wondering if a normal 3 axis controller would control it if I used the diameter of the duck call being engraved as the size of the y axis table. The only problem I have there would be that the duck calls are tapered to the end and none of them are ever the same.

If anyone could give me some information on this, I would be highly appreciative. If this is not possible, how much harder is it to build a 4 axis cnc router?

Here is my website if anyone wants to check out my duck calls and some of my handywork:
http://www.bearkraft.com

Oh yeah, the duck calls are at most 5" long for each piece, so the travel of the router does not have to be very long.

Thanks,
Bear

[jalessi]

Bear,

For your application you only need three axis.

I would not convert the wood lathe to cnc however it is possible.

You could modify your lathe and add a column.
The column would become your Z Axis.
The long Axis would become X and the spindle would be your A axis.
The spindle would also need to be driven by a stepper motor and a pulley reduction system.

You would be much better off if you just purchased a Taig CNC ready mill and added a Sherline 4th axis rotary and have a running machine.

In order to find the surface shape or contour of your product you could digitize the X Axis or a much more simple method would be to only engrave on the part of the duck call where the taper is not severe and use a spring loaded engraver that would ride on the surface of the part.

The Taig with the rotary axis will run you about $2,000.00

You will need software that has a wrap function if you want to engrave around the duck call.

Attempting to save money recycling the wood lathe most likely wont be a savings in the end.

You could also use the Taig to make new duck calls.

Hope this has answered some of your questions.

Jeff Alessi

[ger21]

I am also wondering if a normal 3 axis controller would control it if I used the diameter of the duck call being engraved as the size of the y axis table. The only problem I have there would be that the duck calls are tapered to the end and none of them are ever the same.

Yes, that's the easiest way to do it. But the taper will cause problem. The easiest way to do this imo would be to design your engraving, then stretch it to match the taper. Depending on the software you're using for deign, this can be easy or difficult.

If anyone could give me some information on this, I would be highly appreciative. If this is not possible, how much harder is it to build a 4 axis cnc router?

Not much harder, but software to create continuous 4 axis code is very, very expensive.

If you spend a lot of time poking around here and looking at all the diferent home built machines, you should be able to figure out how to do what you want. And just ask if you have any specific questions. Expect to spend around $1000 or a bit more, depending on what material you build it from.

[nicanor76]

Also how computer literate are you? Many people found that running the 3 required programs to run a CNC the hardest and an unexpected $$ part (but can get freeware versions of some). Luckily I found some SolidWorks and MasertCam tutorials and teaching myself those programs. There's some tutorials on YouTube as well but not as in depth, but still helpful for beginners

[BearKraft]

Thanks for the replys, I now see that there are a lot of different ways to do things. As far as my plan, I would like to do something small, but accurate and hopefully for less than $600.

I am somewhat computer literate, I had a vinyl plotter for a while that I got pretty good at running a vector program on. How much can you do on a 3 axis with the free software that's out there? I would like to be able to convert pictures to gray scale and then engrave that in 3D the same way a laser engraver can. Is this possible? and how much would this kind of software run me?

As far as the Taig, that budget is out of the question! I am doing this as a hobby and can't afford to put that much into it. It does sound like that would be the easiest and best way to go for a beginner though! I think I will be a little more satisfied with myself if I can pull it off building it from scratch on my own.

So, if I made one section of the call a perfect cylinder, I could use the rotation for the y-axis by using the circumference of the call as the table length. That makes me feel a little more confident now, at least I wasn't out in left field with it!!!

Here's what I am thinking now, this is if I don't do the section of perfect cylinder part mentioned above:
I could turn the duck call, mount it in my 5C collet indexer, mount that to the x-y table at an angle to match the taper of the call and then mill indexed flat spots into the entire length of the call (maybe 4 per call). Once I did that, I could engrave whatever I want onto the flat spots just as a normal 3 axis cut and then index to the next flat spot and cut a different scene.

I know this is probably a lot more trouble than ya'll think it's worth just to make duck calls, but you would not believe the amount of money collectors pay for one of a kind calls. I saw a 3 piece set of duck calls sell for $5000 a couple years ago at the NWTF auction!!!!! Granted most are handcarved, which I have done my share of, but I want something that I can personalize for somebody and have a quick turnaround without the high cost that other callmakers charge.

Anyways, thanks for your input guys, and if you think I am going in the wrong direction, don't hesitate to let me know why!

One other thing, what size stepper motors would you guys recommend to run a dremel z-axis and a 3/4" MDF x & y- axis that would be holding a 5C collet indexer? And are tighter threaded lead screws more accurate than the faster ones?

Thanks,
Bear

[jalessi]

Bear,

Less than $600.00 is totally unrealistic for a complete system with power supply, spindle motor, stepper drives, computer and software.

Jeff Alessi

[dertsap]

beyond me why you wouldn t be able to build a $5000 product on a $600 dollar table as long as you've got the $5000 dollar idea and the table is half decent


you could make some beaufifull callers with a 4th axis
http://cnc4free.org/ go to this site and do some reading , you can download gmax which is a powerfull modeling software , in it you can run cnc tool kit right in gmax with the capability of 4 axis , 5 and i beleave 6 if youve got the machine for it , software isn't an issue , its free for what you or most people need and really its probably to much software for most

if your resourcefull i can t see why you couldn t build a table for 600 bucks , i used v-bearings and angle iron which would be quite cheap for you to use and it is dead solid , 500 oz steppers are $50 each and drivers can be had at $30 ea axis , the rest is frame work , you could use mdf , steel or aluminum , then all youll need is a router or trimmer and an old pc .
go to a wrecker or someone similar and dig up a gearbox to build a 4th axis run by a stepper
then your one rockin happy duck callin dude

[jalessi]

Dertsap,

Are you talking about the thirty dollar modularcnc stepper drives that you tossed into the garbage can?

Jeff...

[dertsap]

Dertsap,

Are you talking about the thirty dollar modularcnc stepper drives that you tossed into the garbage can?

Jeff...

no i'm talking about the new geckos . i run the gecko 201 drivers on mine , but as you are aware gecko is selling the new breed for 30 bucks

the modularcnc i got for 2 bucks on ebay and i got what i payed for

[jalessi]

Dertsap,

Currently Gecko is not selling any $30.00 drives and has stated that the complete 540 cheap drive solution "drives with interface and breakout board" will be under $300.00

1. First of all a $300.00 solution is no where near $30.00 per drive

2. THEY ARE NOT SELLING ANY $30.00 DRIVES

3. WHAT THEY CURRENTLY ARE SELLING COST 120.00 PER AXIS = $360.00

4. That does not include a break out board or the power supply either.

Next you are going to say you can get a power supply and a spindle motor from the tooth fairy.

Jeff...

[dertsap]

i really don t understand why everything that comes out of you is rude and ignorant but i suppose the suit shows me what kind of person we are dealing with !!

[dertsap]

Bear do some reading in the forums ,you'll find there are a lot of resources here in the way of designing and getting reliable products at a good price , ebay is a great resource , though i never got my power supplies from the tooth fairy ,i did get two power-one supplies which would retail for over 2g for 60 bucks , slo-syn 770 oz motors for 50 ea and a 1150 oz for 20 bucks , ebays great but you just need to be patient

[jalessi]

Dertsap,

Your comments always amuse me.

That is one of the big reasons I enjoy the Zone so much.

I look forward to every time we exchange ideas and your such a friendly fellow too.

When might you find time to visit Chicago, I would love to buy you a couple of drinks.

You would really make me laugh in person, I am sure you would have fun too.

Please keep this invitation, just in case you are ever in the windy city.

Jeff Alessi

[BearKraft]

Dertsap,
Thank you for the info. I will definitely do my research and shopping around. I already have a trim router and a dremel, so no matter which way I go, I will have my spindle motor accounted for already.

What kind of special configuring would it take to run a y axis as a rotary attachment and only have the x axis going back and forth?

Would the gear for the motor and the belt have to be a certain size or does the program allow you to use any size and program according to total distance of travel?

Jalessi,
I understand that I might not be able to build an industrial machine for $600, but I am talking about using some good old redneck ingenuity to come up with a way to take an age old tradition into the next century on a factory worker budget. Yes, you may not be able to build a $600 machine to meet your standards, but I thought this category of the forum was for DIY CNC Routers and I plan to Do It Myself. If I had $5000 to spend on this, I would pay someone else to build it for me! Maybe one day I will be able to put more into it, but for now I want to build a functional piece of equipment for as cheap as possible.

No hard feelings meant to anyone. I am just trying to get some help on a topic I am interested in, not looking to become a professional.

[jalessi]

Bear,

Do you want to do fine engraving or do you want to hog out wood?

If you want to do fine engraving, you will need a spindle motor that has run out less than .001

The cutters are expensive at around $9.00 to $20.00 each
If the machine is not extremely tight "very good tolerance maintained" you will break a lot of expensive cutters.

I understand a budget and all the Redneck engineering, no one wants to spend extra money if they don't have to however you might want to listen to some of the experts that have done this type of work for a long time.

You do understand the phrase "this is not my first BBQ".

Trying to save pennies will cost you a lot of time, effort and wasted dollars.

Look at all the video of the routers being used, 99 percent of them are not doing fine engraving and would break a engraving cutter in 10 seconds flat.

After the redneck router breaks several hand fulls of $9.00 to $20.00 engraving cutters you will shed some tears.

Have fun experimenting.

No hard feelings, you will become professional if you want to do nice engraving though.

Jeff...

[Mike Stevenson]

BearKraft,

$600 for a CNC router? No way jose.

[BearKraft]

Ok, I withdraw my earlier comments, and I hope you all will chalk this up to the learning curve. I have been somewhat more excited about this whole thing after watching the video of the guy that built the "Gas Pipe Router". I guess I never really put into perspective what the guy was doing with it and assumed that if I could build my carriage assembly rigid enough, or what is that word they have been using at work???? Oh yeah, If I could build my carriage assembly "Robust" enough, then I would have the ability to do what I wanted. I can see the issue with the trim router, I have done some segmented carving with a homebuilt overhead gantry system (manually operated) on my lathe, but saw the issues you speak of with the runout in the bit. On the other hand, I use my dremel tool to do a lot of hand carving on my duck calls and never really had bit runout as an issue. I had some really small bits and was able to achieve higher clarity than I was able to carve!!!!!

So, I guess the only way for us all to understand what each budget is capable of, we need to post some examples of what can be done with each type system. I would like to see what the "Gas Pipe Router" can do and compare to something like Jalessi is talking about.

Jalessi,
What type spindle are you suggesting?

Again, I apologize for my earlier comments, but I do understand where you are coming from now. I work with a bunch of guys who think if they throw enough money at a project, their design issues will go away!

Thanks,
Bear

[Mike Stevenson]

BearKraft,

You came to your senses quick.

Check out my setup:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55692

That's $8,500 worth of CNC router with a 25" X 39" travel. It's made by K2 Devices in Anaheim, California. They have much smaller machines that would work good for your project for a lot less.

Building your own rig is very time consuming and expensive. So you might consider buying one.

[jalessi]

Bear,

First of all I am not trying to sell anything!

I am attempting to save you from spending or wasting money.

You have a good idea for making some nice art.

Many of the members here have all ready been through the trial and error phase already so "Bear" with us for a bit.

See the attached links:

Engraving cutters:

http://tinyurl.com/4qtjoe

Inexpensive spindle motor with very low run out:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT0xDY31ZX0"]YouTube - Wolfgang Engineering Spindle cutting PCB[/ame]

I am still trying to impress the fact that the machine also has to be very precise, most of the MDF based routers cant hold .010

The step over "overlap per cutting pass" on a .005 cutter is less than .002

If it is off or has much backlash you are going to break .005 profile engraving cutters.

A good spindle on a loose machine is still a loose machine.

If you want to build two or three machines first thats ok and most of the parts vendors will be really happy in the process.

For what you are going to CNC "micro" sculpt, you need a super flat, super tight tolerance machine that runs very smooth.

You are not going to use a hammer and chisel and get "award winning" results.

I am not debating the water pipe CNC, these are facts.

Jeff...

[jalessi]

Bear,

I forgot to mention the feed rate for a .005 cutter is very slow, less than 600mm per minute at 15,000 rpm

In order to cut faster you will need a 30,000 rpm spindle and the run out still needs to be very low.

To engrave or sculpt the entire circumference of the duck call might take between eight and twelve hours of CNC time.


Jeff...