[joesz]

Ignorance is how we got to this point to begin with, that and the mass brainwashing of the population that listens to and takes as gospel every thing that Oprah tells them to. I have without a doubt ten times the direct experience with this that anyone here does. I know what I am talking about from direct dealings with this I know the difference between reality and what you think you know or hear on the TV. I have been in manufacturing longer than some of you have probably been alive. I know what I am talking about I seen hundreds of good paying jobs go away. I have personally had my hands on the cheap garbage they have sent over here I have seen the rejected parts made out of materials substituted then tried to slip them into this country.
The quality is not there it never has been and never will be, the average company in China will produce garbage knowing there will be no recourse. They know the average consumer will not bother to take a 10 or 20 dollar item back to the store if it breaks in two days. It is planned that way so they can uses substandard materials. It is why they export poison goods harmfull to the public.
Anyone that defends this in any way at all has no voice and should keep their mouth shut,killing people is not a way to increase profits or at least it should not be. There is not a word anyone here can say to justify that in anyway.
The government of China is killing people along with help from the us governement and the large corporations, now tell me again how this is a good thing, it is astounding just how ignorant to use your own words people can be.

[woodwd234]

Hi Mike,

I read - well sort of skimmed through all this mess - and would just like to get back to your orginial post, if I may?

I've called and looked and asked all around and can not find a single American company that will work with me for some machining that I need to have done for my hobby. I basically get laughed at and treated like dirt when I tell them what I am trying to build and how much stuff I need. Apprently a $1,000 worth of parts is not enough money for these american shops, even though they say "no job too small, single pieces are just as important to us as large batch orders". That is why I ended up on this site, I thought about building my own CNC machine for this - but, learning curve is too high and by the time I build one that can handle aluminum or some mild steel - I might as well as buy it, plus I have spent more than it would cost to have the parts machined, so I've given up on that.

I would be interested in what you can do for me. Can we take this offline or shoot me an web address so I can look at what you can offer - remember, I need aluminum and maybe some less than 1/4 inch mild steel done.

case in point - I needed a gear made, easy to do with CNC - contact a company - they quoted $18,000 setup fee and $1,800 per gear - min order of 10 gears and I only needed 2.

Bill

[dbohemian]

I have had my hands on cheap garbage with substandard materials, made right here in the Good ol' US of A. Once even from a crusty old guy with more experience in machining than the time that I have graced this Earth.

Crap is endemic. Quality can be had anywhere as long as the end user demands it. There are certainly some major cultural differences between us and this is where miscommunication or misunderstandings happen. For instance, when taking delivery of large amounts of product from China, always inspect before paying. But then again, isn't this a good idea anywhere?

Maybe I am seeing this a different way since I have been to China numerous times. I have been to manufacturing facilities. I have seen good and bad. I just see the middle ground. China has a long way to go on many fronts. So do we. If you think we have not perpetrated gross human indecencies you would be mistaken.

I do see changes happening. I hope too that manufacturing jobs can come back to the U.S. I hope our children can learn basic manufacturing skills, if they wish too.

This really should not be a political argument. Instead, we should be discussing the original question of whether the world needs another online shop and how that would be best presented. BTW, assuming that the U.S would be the only client for ezpcb is also flawed. There is probably enough business in his own country to support this.

[ezpcb.com]

Hello bill

the website is under construction.

I think I can help you to finish your project. Please send me your requirments in email. please send email to [email protected]

BR
Mike

[ezpcb.com]

It's interesting, I didn't anticipated the argument getting flamed. But I'll say thanks to every follower including those are hostile to me. It really helps me to learn so much about my target market, this is very valuable to me.

In my opinion, we are all hired by the people. Jobs are given by the customers. Customers will choose who to hire fairly. I think the winner is the hardworking people, not those guys blaming, complaining or even vituperating all day.

BR

[dertsap]

i have to respect the fact Mike has been patient and let sticks and stones bounce off of him

i don t think it matters where the guy is from , he deserves to post within the forums , anyone who is insulting should get it through there head that the cnczone is an worldwide membership not just designated to one country
if you dont like the product DON"T BUY IT
there are many here from all over the world who post looking for work

anyone who wants to point their finger and cry should look at what they have done to contribute to cheap products that are flooding in , take walmart for eg a great american corporation who sells to millions upon millions of americans every year , can anyone tell me if these are american products ,
it seems to me the corps are giving the people what they want , and until enough people stand up and say something then the corporations will continue to import or they will listen to the people ,but that will come with its own cost which will piss people off

do i like to see the work ive done pulled out of the country ? hell no , can i blame Mike , is it right to blame Mike , is it right to isult and spit on Mike ?
a dude like Mike is just trying to do what everyone else is and that is to make a living

so where does this leave the manufacturing in our countries , it leaves it in the hands of the general CONSUMERS of OUR OWN COUNTRIES

[bobk]

Hi Mike,

I read - well sort of skimmed through all this mess - and would just like to get back to your orginial post, if I may?

I've called and looked and asked all around and can not find a single American company that will work with me for some machining that I need to have done for my hobby. I basically get laughed at and treated like dirt when I tell them what I am trying to build and how much stuff I need. Apprently a $1,000 worth of parts is not enough money for these american shops, even though they say "no job too small, single pieces are just as important to us as large batch orders". That is why I ended up on this site, I thought about building my own CNC machine for this - but, learning curve is too high and by the time I build one that can handle aluminum or some mild steel - I might as well as buy it, plus I have spent more than it would cost to have the parts machined, so I've given up on that.

I would be interested in what you can do for me. Can we take this offline or shoot me an web address so I can look at what you can offer - remember, I need aluminum and maybe some less than 1/4 inch mild steel done.

case in point - I needed a gear made, easy to do with CNC - contact a company - they quoted $18,000 setup fee and $1,800 per gear - min order of 10 gears and I only needed 2.

Bill

I would love to see this part, because I don't believe this story! I have a small manufacturing company and some of the prices I come across from American suppliers are extremely cheap. In fact, many on small quantities are less than shipping from somewhere like China. Small shops are working very cheap these days. From my personal experience China shines on large quantity, low to medium quality components.

[dertsap]

I would love to see this part, because I don't believe this story! I.

there is some truth to that , the last company i was at wouldn t take small jobs and everything that came in the door was cost plus , for the most part it was because we always had more work than we could keep up with

but there should be guys around willing to do it , ive seen enough here in the zone alone who would do it


some advice that i can offer if anyone wants to here it

my previous boss got fed up with the nickle and dime work , all the gravy of running aluminum production jobs has far too much competition locally , so what he did was bought a couple of large machines which can handle some big product , it was a whole new market , while other companies were hurting we were rockin , out of 5 yrs of me being there we had one week that we could breath , every year a few more machines would come through the door just to try to keep up to the work

i'm sure many will admitt there hasn t been much money in aluminum production work for quite some time now and it's because there are far too many large or small companies competing for it , local or not

[ambrosefx]

I know I am going to get flamed for saying this, but here I go. The AMERICAN consumer is responsible for the dilemma of jobs flying out of the USA. They want MORE for LESS and that is what the Chinese, Japanese, Tiwanese, ETC companies give to the spoiled brats that are spending money today. I am one of the Machinists that lost my job due to manufacturing going offshore in the late 1980's and am now trying to start up a small shop in Henderson Nevada to supply machining services at a fair cost to small orders of 1 to 100 pcs. If there were more shops like this that offer a fair rate and not try to get rich on every job I think the tide would turn to keeping more work here in the states. Also we need to offer more education to the kids growing up in a computer obsessed world and show them how to use their hands to CREATE rather than play GAMES. In Las Vegas there are no classes in MACHINE TECH. anywhere. I would also like to see the machine shops in the USA open their doors to students that are interested in machinery and teach them for free. That would be an investment in the MACHINIST future. So much for my soapbox, think about it!!!

[bobk]

there is some truth to that , the last company i was at wouldn t take small jobs and everything that came in the door was cost plus , for the most part it was because we always had more work than we could keep up with

but there should be guys around willing to do it , ive seen enough here in the zone alone who would do it

I'm sure that there are many shops who would look at this guy's parts. He made a very broad statement.

quote " I've called and looked and asked all around and can not find a single American company that will work with me for some machining that I need to have done for my hobby."

That's what I don't believe. To my knowledge he has not posted his jobs on any of the three online RFQ forums that I frequently visit.

[mediasmith]

ezpcb:"In my opinion, we are all hired by the people. Jobs are given by the customers. Customers will choose who to hire fairly."

=This is the real problem. It will keep getting worse as long as the end user.. read that as the ones who complain the loudest... keep heading back to Wal Mart for most of their shopping, getting health care from providers who get most all of their supplies and equipment from Pakistan or India and buying groceries from Mexico and South America.

As long as Americans continue the delusion that some kind of magic will let us enjoy high wages, extremely extended benefits, extra-generous tim off policies and still produce products that can be competitive in the marketplace, we are screwed.

It is this kind of rhetoric that has caused the US to be less competitive than it should be.

=Actually, it is the attitude behind it.

America is an opportunistic economy. We have made almost all our wealth taking advantage of a situation where we can reap large profits off the backs of others, usually for that matter our own people.

Amen!!!

Think drug companies, big oil etc.

=I hope you are thinking of the "Big Oil" of 50 years ago. Today, that term is nothing more than a media propaganda buzzword. America has not been a part of Big Oil for years,; except as consumers.


BTW, this is the American way. I don't have a big problem with it. If you want to live in your own world, then by all means, go ahead.

= I do have problems with it because it limits my freedom to choose how I live. As long as most people fail to practice what they preach and price stays the sole consideration, most other product options will cease to exist. Twenty-odd years ago, there was no doubt a Beta video system was superior quality to VHS. Everybody knew it but VHS was a little cheaper. Try buying a Beta system today. Yeah, you can rationalize a lot of reasons but they are still simply excuses.

China is not a slave labor economy. Generalized statements such as this just show the ignorance of the poster.

= and their willingness to let others make decisions for them. If not, I wouldn't be the only one in agreement with you.

China will produce at any quality you wish. It is the end user who usually specifies a less expensive product.

= I once worked in Quality Control where quality was just a word we liked to use. I see a lot of people tossing that word around with obvious misconceptions of what it means.
A quality product is one that is produced in such a manner as to result in an acceptable number of rejects, repairs and replacements so that the producer can meet a target price point and still reap an expected profit level.
Obviously, quality can mean many different things to many different people.


We can go back and forth all day on this but I think Ezpcb had every right to post a question. Same as any of you and this feedback is less than flattering.

=More like embarrassing.

Choose to do what you will but he has the right to try and make a profit as anyone else does. You have the right not to purchase his products.

=This is my first, and very likely last, post in this forum. Unlike some who have very valuable time, I don't. I enjoy a good off-topic discussion once in awhile. What I don't have time for is sorting through thousands of posts in an effort to determine which guy has knowledge of what he says and which are internet impostors. This semi-off-topic thread indicates a lotta straw and few needles here.
wds

[EurotechElite]

There is already a service for businesses like yours - I believe that it is www.MFG.com. Like it or not, goods that can be produced in less expensive countries will end up there, although we are seeing MANY, MANY jobs coming back. It is great news and I think the future remains bright for American Manufacturing. Witness the growth in Machine Tool Consumption and every recent survey showing that shops are very busy and expect growth.

[joesz]

Don't tell me no one will take the small jobs there are hundreds of shops out there that would be happy to take them you just need to look harder.
Dont call huge shops with hundreds of people those are the ones building over seas. The small American manufacturer still exists and they are looking for work.
As far as thing not being an American site well the owner is American it is based in America and most people here from what I can see are from America so maybe it should be an American site. As an American my self I would ban any and all posts that are attempting to take more jobs from this country I would ban anyone that tries to help make that happen.
I am sorry if you can not stand to hear the reality of this but I don't care one little bit about other countries as long as my fellow Americans are in need. We are not the world police we are not a world charity we have our own people to worry about and if we do not have the resources to take care of them we have no buisness helping other countries. If I going to pay taxes I want that money to help people in my own country I am sorry of people in China or Mexico or where ever are suffering but it is not my problem to resolve that and I do not want to see one dime of my taxes go to help them. I do not want to see one dollar of my consumer purchases go to help them. I have not darkened the door of a Wal-mart for 10 years and never will they are one of the worst companies for selling out this country.
I buy American when ever possible, just today I paid 17 dollars for something I could have got from China for a buck fifty a flexible 6 inch scale.
Yea I could have bought Mitiutoyo or some other import a lot cheaper but I bought a Starrett because it is still an American company. I will continue to not buy anything from China ever and I will keep buying American where ever possible. For those of you so hyped up on world trade I have but a few words for you get out of my country and go live there we don't want yoi here and we don't need you here, you are a drain on our society.
Politically correct?? hell no and damn proud of it you don't want to hear it too damn bad I have a right to say it. You know I am right but refuse to admit it because you blindly follow what you hear on TV. Sorry but reality is something different that where you are living get used to it or become a slave. If anyone here does not agree with me there are two reason for that, one they are miss informed or two they are making money off it.
I don't care who I offend with my words I am sick of this crap I speak the truth if it offends you then good.
Those of you with no experance on this except what you hear on TV are entitled you your opinions no matter how miss informed they may be but you are not qualified to argue the right and wrong of this.
China is killing American citizens as well as innocent citizens of other countries because the governement does not regulate it's industries well enough, hell they are promoting this crap. We have substandard goods coming into this country jobs are being lost by the thousands we are getting poisoned food toys and drugs sent over by the boatload and people are dying and getting sick from it. Now please tell me one good thing about this, and don't tell me it is creating jobs in China it is creating slave labor these factories are not paying a living wage they care nothing about the health of their workers, hell there are billions more over there just get a new one. The care nothing about basic human rights they car only about the bottom line

[amas]

Hi Guy, Need Tip, is anyone know, how it work.?

I build a CnC Machine which need to Cut soft Paper form Broad about 5mm Thick. & is using Cutter Blade. which need to following
the Path-Line, which mean the Blade will Rotate by control the step motor.- following the Path line?

or Cutting 90 or 45 degree, the Blade will rotate to 90 or 45 degree & step down to do the cutting. is Mach3 can do?
Just like .....Zund Packing Cutting Machine.

Any Tip & Advice?

Amas

[ambrosefx]

Wrong forum but i think mach 3 will do this

Hi Guy, Need Tip, is anyone know, how it work.?

I build a CnC Machine which need to Cut soft Paper form Broad about 5mm Thick. & is using Cutter Blade. which need to following
the Path-Line, which mean the Blade will Rotate by control the step motor.- following the Path line?

or Cutting 90 or 45 degree, the Blade will rotate to 90 or 45 degree & step down to do the cutting. is Mach3 can do?
Just like .....Zund Packing Cutting Machine.

Any Tip & Advice?

Amas

[dertsap]

I don't care who I offend with my words I am sick of this crap I speak the truth if it offends you then good.
Those of you with no experance on this except what you hear on TV are entitled you your opinions no matter how miss informed they may be but you are not qualified to argue the right and wrong of this.


China is killing American citizens as well as innocent citizens of other countries because the governement does not regulate it's industries well enough,

once again you blame the rest of the world for the problems in your great nation ? where is YOUR national pride all we see is your crying hatefull words , and your painting a pretty pathetic outlook of your country to the rest of the world , which does more harm than good for you

its all cool that you buy american but obviously not all your countrymen do so , its a matter of convincing them to do the same .

i can't or won't argue the point that work is being exported , but the anger is being directed the wrong way and it is far from productive ,youve just shown and proven your vulnerabilty and you give more reason for the competition to eat you up

i mean all this in due respect to everyone here and i mean no offence to anyone . i know what its like to take a hit because of the economy ,and its sick , my hometown has been boarded up minus the few retiries who have stayed , houses that were once expensive cant be sold even for a few grand , and no it isnt due to china ,its due to other markets , none the less "home" is gone
we are all only people who have families and struggle our way thru life .
in this world only the strong survive and thats what you need to show to stay strong even when your at your weakest

[brettcnc]

Hi Mike,

... we need to stop this disposable attitude from buying cheap crap many times to buying good gear once. A rich man in sense does this a poor man the other.



Mungsta

I think the most important way to combat the flood of chinese crap is to convince Aussie consumers to buy the best you can afford, like our parents did, impulse buying of cheap electrical junk is filling up our dumps and poisoning our planet not to mention hurting our industries. I thought my (small batch niche) business was immune from China, but a customer last week told me he buys batches of 50 parts from China! 50 poxy $20 parts. Of course we got the job of repairing and finishing them...

[kirkln]

Very well put joesz I could not agree with you more I can only say one thing TRUE TRUE TRUE Kirk

[ezpcb.com]

I would love to see this part, because I don't believe this story! I have a small manufacturing company and some of the prices I come across from American suppliers are extremely cheap. In fact, many on small quantities are less than shipping from somewhere like China. Small shops are working very cheap these days. From my personal experience China shines on large quantity, low to medium quality components.

Hi Bobk,

this is a very important news for me, thanks

Mike

[MurrayC]

Hi Mike,
I would like to offer some encouragement! Whether based in China or US or elsewhere, the more online machining shops that cater for ones and two off or small runs of parts the better. If the cost of the manufacture is low enough, the shipping becomes acceptable, especially for small lightweight parts (I am in Australia).
I am a robotics experimenter and from time to time require very small quantities of parts machined out of aluminium or plastics like HDPE. If you offered surface finishing options and made the web interface / quoting system easy enough to use, and the price was low enough, I think it could be a very good service.
Murray