[2_many_hobbies]

Hello all, I have been reading these forums for well over a year now and have decided to join up and start to plan my own setup. I moved to the lower mainland about 7 months ago and after moving a few times have settled down and actually have the room and time to think seriously about my hobbies.

My problem is I have so many hobbies that I never get anything done on any one thing so it seems like a money pit. Im hoping will the right setup I will progress through projects fast enough I dont need to worry about loosing track of my plans.

So what are my hobbies you ask? Well I will list them in order of how often I do them:

1) PCB Milling, 0604/0803 smt, 8-10mil traces, 8-10mil isolation
2) brass/aluminum engraving and cutting (0.3-3mm sheet though I have never used over 1mm yet but would like to)
3) Wood block shelling and sheet metal holing for custom enclosures
4) MDF/pvc/plexi/lexan clocks & gear cutting

For table size 100x80 working area is the absolute smallest I would prefer a smaller table if I must sacrifice accuracy for a larger one as pcb milling is the absolute #1 and I do it weekly while enclosures and clocks every month or two.

Here's the machines I have looked at so far:
9x10 lathe & x2 combo I have seen both a HF and that's one hell of a price, esp since you can get it with an R8 spindle.
Ive looked at all the x1, x2, x3 variations from HF/BB/grizzley as they seem to be the most commonly recommended ones then the Taig/surelines
The x2 can handle any metalwork I could want to do and with $200 and the LMS y-base extension & Longer table I would get 130mmx330mm

Fireball v90 While this gantry model is not tough enough to handle any metals I don't even know if I would be able to cut 1mm brass or aluminum.

Either machine I would put a PaulJones/WolfgangEng spindle or make one if I got the combo package (I want a 9x10 lathe either way) So I can get the 20k+ rpm I need for my pcb and brass working.

My budget is to just get the machine first so if I cant afford to cnc it I will still be able to do alot of things, then pick up motion control from hobbycnc/keeling/gekko or one of the other $400-$600 packages but that will be a later thread.

So I would like to spend $500-$800 on the mill itself and $200-$300 on accessories and bits. If i get a gantry I only need bits & edge/center finders while if I get an vertical mill I will need 1-2-3 blocks, parallels, clamping set, vice, etc as well.

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On a side note while im saving for a solution I was thinking of rigging up a milling table with 1/2in black pipe and fittings from my pipefitter friend and mounting a proxxon or similar rotary tool on a LMS xy table. For $150 and some scrap material to build a z-axis I think it would get my in the right frame of mind. What do you guys think?

[sansbury]

My problem is I have so many hobbies that I never get anything done on any one thing so it seems like a money pit. Im hoping will the right setup I will progress through projects fast enough I dont need to worry about loosing track of my plans.

If you want another hobby to add to the list, get the X2. Otherwise I'd get a Taig. It will require a lot less work to do the types of things you're talking about.

[Stepper Monkey]

The X2 is NOT what you want here, especially for circuit boards - or for anything else on that list actually. Besides, as mentioned before, the X2 is a hobby in and of itself.
Unless you need to hog out steel or use pretty large mills, you will be giving up accuracy, speed, and about everything else you want including cost, just to get some extra heavy cutting capability you likely won't ever need.
The Taig is more than adequate in beefiness for cutting what you need, with a lot of other advantages you will be requiring.

[TOTALLYRC]

Hello all, I have been reading these forums for well over a year now and have decided to join up and start to plan my own setup. I moved to the lower mainland about 7 months ago and after moving a few times have settled down and actually have the room and time to think seriously about my hobbies.

My problem is I have so many hobbies that I never get anything done on any one thing so it seems like a money pit. Im hoping will the right setup I will progress through projects fast enough I dont need to worry about loosing track of my plans.

So what are my hobbies you ask? Well I will list them in order of how often I do them:

1) PCB Milling, 0604/0803 smt, 8-10mil traces, 8-10mil isolation
2) brass/aluminum engraving and cutting (0.3-3mm sheet though I have never used over 1mm yet but would like to)
3) Wood block shelling and sheet metal holing for custom enclosures
4) MDF/pvc/plexi/lexan clocks & gear cutting

For table size 100x80 working area is the absolute smallest I would prefer a smaller table if I must sacrifice accuracy for a larger one as pcb milling is the absolute #1 and I do it weekly while enclosures and clocks every month or two.

Here's the machines I have looked at so far:
9x10 lathe & x2 combo I have seen both a HF and that's one hell of a price, esp since you can get it with an R8 spindle.
Ive looked at all the x1, x2, x3 variations from HF/BB/grizzley as they seem to be the most commonly recommended ones then the Taig/surelines
The x2 can handle any metalwork I could want to do and with $200 and the LMS y-base extension & Longer table I would get 130mmx330mm

Fireball v90 While this gantry model is not tough enough to handle any metals I don't even know if I would be able to cut 1mm brass or aluminum.

Either machine I would put a PaulJones/WolfgangEng spindle or make one if I got the combo package (I want a 9x10 lathe either way) So I can get the 20k+ rpm I need for my pcb and brass working.

My budget is to just get the machine first so if I cant afford to cnc it I will still be able to do alot of things, then pick up motion control from hobbycnc/keeling/gekko or one of the other $400-$600 packages but that will be a later thread.

So I would like to spend $500-$800 on the mill itself and $200-$300 on accessories and bits. If i get a gantry I only need bits & edge/center finders while if I get an vertical mill I will need 1-2-3 blocks, parallels, clamping set, vice, etc as well.

----------------------------------------------------------

On a side note while im saving for a solution I was thinking of rigging up a milling table with 1/2in black pipe and fittings from my pipefitter friend and mounting a proxxon or similar rotary tool on a LMS xy table. For $150 and some scrap material to build a z-axis I think it would get my in the right frame of mind. What do you guys think?

Taig 2019ER/CR which means the extended x travel, er16 collet spindle,computer ready.

Keling cnc has a great G540 package to run this with motors, drivers and power supply.~$640usd.
Taig Mill is ~ $1200usd All it takes from there is some hand tools and an enclosre for all the electronics. Plus a computer and software.

Since you do a lot of pcb milling, you can add a high speed spindle to the side of the existing spindle and have both ready to go whenever you need them.

Take a look at the 10x? series of lathes or the 8x? lathes. Both are supposed to be superior to the 9x? series.

[2_many_hobbies]

Taig 2019ER/CR which means the extended x travel, er16 collet spindle,computer ready.

Take a look at the 10x? series of lathes or the 8x? lathes. Both are supposed to be superior to the 9x? series.

Ive always thought the Taig to be lighter weight than the x2 but more durable than the x1 so I figured why not get an x2 since their $250 cheeper, and more capable?

Whats so good about the Taig for my uses? (The $55 shipping cost is a huge bonus I tell yea)

I just took a look at their Mini Lathe its pretty sad looking with nothing under covers but for $425 how does is compare to the 7x, 8x, 9x HF stuff?
7x12/8x12
/9x20
I have fiddled with all three in store and the 9x20 feels like rocketscience compared to the 7x10/7x12's but at the same time its freakin huge in comparason. I really dont *need* a lathe but they are extremely handy every few months.

[TOTALLYRC]

Ive always thought the Taig to be lighter weight than the x2 but more durable than the x1 so I figured why not get an x2 since their $250 cheeper, and more capable?

Whats so good about the Taig for my uses? (The $55 shipping cost is a huge bonus I tell yea)

I just took a look at their Mini Lathe its pretty sad looking with nothing under covers but for $425 how does is compare to the 7x, 8x, 9x HF stuff?
7x12/8x12
/9x20
I have fiddled with all three in store and the 9x20 feels like rocketscience compared to the 7x10/7x12's but at the same time its freakin huge in comparason. I really dont *need* a lathe but they are extremely handy every few months.

Well I have a taig and it has a 10krpm spindle out of the box which is good for aluminum and wood cutting and may work well for the pcb milling, but I am not sure. The x2 I have no experiance with, so someone will tell you about them.

If you only need a lathe for just fiddling everyonce ina while, then what ever you get will probably work.

I have a 7x and it works, but I wouldn't buy one again. The 8x are way better than the 7x and are even better than the 9x. The 10x are better yet as they are more solid and better made.

[dertsap]

have you loked at the mill and lathe at princess auto in coquitlam
its the seig stuff and they put them on sale regularly

[sansbury]

Ive always thought the Taig to be lighter weight than the x2 but more durable than the x1 so I figured why not get an x2 since their $250 cheeper, and more capable?

Whats so good about the Taig for my uses? (The $55 shipping cost is a huge bonus I tell yea)

For smaller precision work it is the Taig that is more capable, especially out of the box.

The X2 has a noisy gear-driven R8 spindle which goes up to 2250 RPM or so. This isn't really even optimum speed for a 1/4" endmill in aluminum. You can get a belt-drive kit that takes it to 4000. There goes $130. You may need new bearings too, there's another $50 for all the goodies.

The Taig has a nice, 10K belt-drive spindle with an ER16 collet. This is ideal for smaller (1/4" or less) tools. You can get an ER chuck to fit the X2 but it'll cost another $30 or so. So that's $210 of difference gone right there.

A stock X2 has acme leadscrews with no backlash adjustment mechanism. If you CNC it as-is you'll get >.005" of backlash which will make it useless for small PCB work. You may be able to mod the nuts, some people here have had luck with that. Or you can do a ballscrew conversion, which is $300-$800 depending on how you do it. That can get you down into the .001" range though.

The Taig has acme screws but have an anti-backlash adjustment capability. It's not quite as good as a precision ballscrew but ~.001" seems to be doable with periodic calibration.

It costs more and weighs less than the X2 because it is a more precise piece of machinery. The X2 may be capable of removing more metal faster but that doesn't seem to be what you want a mill for.

I just took a look at their Mini Lathe its pretty sad looking with nothing under covers but for $425 how does is compare to the 7x, 8x, 9x HF stuff?
I have fiddled with all three in store and the 9x20 feels like rocketscience compared to the 7x10/7x12's but at the same time its freakin huge in comparason. I really dont *need* a lathe but they are extremely handy every few months.

I have a 7x and it is fine so long as I stay away from steel. It will turn steel but it's not ideal. The only job I haven't been able to do on mine was turning hardened 5/8" ball screws for my X2 CNC conversion. So long as your projects will fit on the 7x lathe and are mostly aluminum you will probably find it OK. They seem to be easy to resell for a good chunk of the original price if you decide to upgrade. Just be sure to get the 7x12 because the HF 7x10 is really short.

[Stepper Monkey]

It costs more and weighs less than the X2 because it is a more precise piece of machinery. The X2 may be capable of removing more metal faster but that doesn't seem to be what you want a mill for.

Pretty much it exactly. I think a Taig is more your speed all around, and you can run it out of the box. It is designed for doing work much better approximating what you want it to do.
X2's are cheaper to buy initially, but it is deceiving to think they will stay that way through a CNC conversion. To get to functional and debugged as CNC machines they actually wind up costing significantly more anyway. Even then they won't do a Taig's job any more than a Taig could do the same work as an X2. Two different machines for different functions. X2 just isn't the best machine for your specific needs even if it was cheaper.

Another benefit of the Taig is not only the higher stock spindle speeds and the rest, but that the spindles on a Taig unclip and are easily swappable, so when you do get a Wolfgang spindle for pcb work (which I would suggest) you don't have to worry about the problems inherent in hanging one off the side of an existing spindle (which I wouldn't suggest). You simply change them out and only have to run one or the other as needed.

As for a manual Lathe, I would go the other route and definitely buy HF. The mini lathe is actually a really respected machine for small precision modeling, jewelry, and watch work, but that is all it was really designed for and it is not a lathe to consider at all for general work around a shop. It's very precisely built, but a lot smaller than it even looks in the pictures, not even in the same class as the HF lathes in size.
Get an 8x or 9x, and it seems like the recommendations on the zone lean toward favoring the 8x.

[hoss2006]

The X2 has a noisy gear-driven R8 spindle which goes up to 2250 RPM or so. This isn't really even optimum speed for a 1/4" endmill in aluminum. You can get a belt-drive kit that takes it to 4000. There goes $130. You may need new bearings too, there's another $50 for all the goodies.

You can make your own belt drive for next to nothing if you also get a lathe.
Mine goes to 6100 rpm and still using the original bearings, 4 years now.

You can get an ER chuck to fit the X2 but it'll cost another $30 or so.

Why would you want to use ER on an X2 that has R8? Tormach type tooling is sweet.

A stock X2 has acme leadscrews with no backlash adjustment mechanism.

True,kinda. A simple task though, just copy the nuts that LMS sells with their kit.
A saw cut and a couple tapped holes and bingo.

An X2 with a Wolfgang Engineering spindle milling a PCB. I guess it is possible huh.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9bNOQgkeSk"]Milling a printed circuit[/ame]

The 7x10 lathe is crappy, the 10x22 is awesome.


Save your money and build this instead.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6drMZqmyXQc"]Easy to build Desktop CNC Mill[/ame]

If you search Youtube for PCB milling, you'll find most of the videos are using a cnc router.
A lot of misinformation about what can't be done, easy to see and show what actually is done.

[2_many_hobbies]

have you loked at the mill and lathe at princess auto in coquitlam
its the seig stuff and they put them on sale regularly

Thanks, I haven't been to a Princess Auto in YEARS and had no idea they had Seig stuff.

On that note I also forgot LeeValley Tools existed, they sell the Taig Lathe for $275 which is one hell of a price compared to the $700 of the 8x12 HF lathes (but they have threading & larger)

I figured I could pick up a $20 120v motor at Princess Auto and throw it on the Taig lathe and for $300 that's a pretty good setup. The only things I have ever wanted a lathe for was brass pulleys and brass fittings. Would love to make some miniature steam engines.

Thanks all for the x2/taig input, I think I agree that the Taig is a bit more suited for my needs by having no need for a z-axis upgrade, belt driven, and removable spindle to make my pcb milling easier. The extra coin kinda sucks but I still have a while of savings before I could buy either.

Hoss: I love your page, you have been a great help through all my time here. you like your 10x22 too much... Its freakin huge... The 2nd vid of the pipe cnc was my first idea to do but theirs no possibility of much accuracy. I was thinking of getting that xy table from LMS and mounting the pipe's setup of the Z-axis with the proxxon/dremel and use it solely for pcb's as it would be a pretty cheep ($200) total cost and I can use my pathetic 40oz steppers with mosfet & pic micro controller i already built to play around with.

[Stepper Monkey]

.

[hoss2006]

Good choice, should work well for you.
The taig lathe should make some detailed work too.
Made in USA too.
Glad to help, that's what I'm here for.
The 10x22 is a bit more than you probably need but I don't want to rag on
another machine I never used.
The 7x10 didn't live up to the press, looked good on paper.

[sansbury]

You can make your own belt drive for next to nothing if you also get a lathe.
Mine goes to 6100 rpm and still using the original bearings, 4 years now.

Stock and hours. I'll bet most people spend at least $50 on the stock unless they have very good scrap bins to dive in. By the time you're done the $130 Steele kit isn't a bad deal if you have slightly more money than time.

As for the bearings, you're lucky. I can't get mine to run cool over 3000RPM no matter what I do. Some have replaced theirs and gone to 7k happily, and some like me have been through multiple replacements with no luck. YMMV.

Why would you want to use ER on an X2 that has R8? Tormach type tooling is sweet.

Agreed for larger tooling. But for PCB mills and drills, I'll take a very precise ER collet.

True,kinda. A simple task though, just copy the nuts that LMS sells with their kit.
A saw cut and a couple tapped holes and bingo.

True, but more time futzing and fiddling with tools to make another project.

An X2 with a Wolfgang Engineering spindle milling a PCB. I guess it is possible huh.

I said the Taig was better out-of-the-box for a job like this. I stand by that statement.

The 7x10 lathe is crappy, the 10x22 is awesome.

Only if you don't have to carry the lathe down a narrow basement staircase by yourself

I like the 7x10 better than the Taig lathe for my purposes because it has threading, which has been more useful than I thought. Your projects tend to expand as your tools become more capable. Of course you could CNC the Taig lathe too.

A lot of misinformation about what can't be done, easy to see and show what actually is done.

I've built a PCB router from scratch (controller too), a wood router, an X1 conversion and an X2 conversion, both 100% DIY parts and the X2 based on your design. That's where my information comes from.

There is no way in @#$! that a stock X2 is anywhere near capable of doing what the OP wants in terms of PCB milling and small detail work. When you're done with the dozens of hours of work and hundreds of dollars of parts to get there, you may have a machine that is capable of somewhat larger/heavier work too, and you can get there a little cheaper in the end, if you're careful.

FWIW, I am very happy with my X2 conversion and what I learned from the project. But if I had the OP's needs and the money for a Taig, I think it would be the better choice. Especially because he says he has a problem finishing his hobby projects due to having too many of them. Unless your point is to cure him of that habit by overload!

[sansbury]

X2's are cheaper to buy initially, but it is deceiving to think they will stay that way through a CNC conversion. To get to functional and debugged as CNC machines they actually wind up costing significantly more anyway.

I'll argue with this a little.

I am (I hope) about done buying parts for my conversion, and it is making chips. I have about $500 in mechanicals, including ~$80 spent having a machinist turn my ballscrews for me. Figuring $600 for a new X2, this puts you at about the same price as a CNC-ready Taig.

The CNCFusion kit would have been around $700 for the same configuration. Others have spent more on fancier screws, but my cheap Rotons are working well so far. You could argue that the CNCFusion kit is superior to a DIY job, sure it's nicer than mine, but mine works.

The controls are pretty much the same story for either mill. I traded time for money and scrounged an IM483-based system together for ~$100 plus stuff I had laying around. A G540 is ~$350 and would save HOURS of wiring and fiddling, and is probably a better drive. Again, mine works.

The problem I see is that a lot of people throw money rather than brains at various parts of the project. The Taig reduces that problem because there are a lot fewer choices to make.

Some people have done X2 conversions without ballscrews and gotten good results too. I did this on my X1 and was happy but wanted to go all the way for the X2. Time will tell if it really requires less fidgeting to get consistent results.

[hoss2006]

There is no way in @#$! that a stock X2 is anywhere near capable of doing what the OP wants in terms of PCB milling and small detail work.

I am (I hope) about done buying parts for my conversion, and it is making chips. I have about $500 in mechanicals, including ~$80 spent having a machinist turn my ballscrews for me. Figuring $600 for a new X2, this puts you at about the same price as a CNC-ready Taig.

So you have ballscrews and a taig doesn't.

Whoever said a stock X2 is as good as a stock taig, it wasn't me so don't try to imply that I had!
I have a little experience with the X2 as well and simply pointed out that not
everyone has to spend $130 for a belt conversion, and not everyones bearings go bad and that stock screws can have minimal backlash with a simple mod to the nuts like LMS did.
We all know the chinese don't spend the time on fit and finish like the US made tiag folks do, but they ARE cheaper.
Some of us would rather save some cash and do the tweaking ourselves,
I merely point out that it doesn't HAVE to be difficult or expensive.
Sorry for trying to be helpful instead of negative.
The OP decided the taig fits him better and I agreed, never said it didn't.

[iceblu3710]

I just got back from Princess Auto out here and wow talk about rape, $1000 for the x2 and $600 for the 7x10, not to mention that store is no longer a fun misc parts bin now its just full of uber****ty chineese tools. I miss the days of digging through a store of motors, gearboxes, switches and lites completely unlabled.

Im having slow internet issues so cant get into finding some good user reviews/teardowns about setting the machine up. Square ways kind of seem wierd to to as I have always seen flat brass gibs with little setscrews. Stock out of the box and set up what kind of accuracy can I expect?

On another note every time I look at the taig I feel like the motor is going to fall off... I checked their dealer page and theirs nothing near the BC/WA area, does anyone know someplace I could go to check it out in person?

[dertsap]

the mill comes down to $699 , so if you weigh it out against the 9x10 lathe & x2 combo combo you said you have been looking at then you would be better off waiting till it goes on sale , that one in the US is $899USD = $1140CAD + shipping and probably cross boarder broker fees ,
i bought the lathe last year for $599 and I'm quite impressed with how well it works , i bought it figuring it wouldn t work for anything usefull and held onto the reciept with the idea it was going back as quickly as it came but once i tryed it , i found a nice lil spot for it to have its place


i here ya about the surplus section , it isn't the little goldmine of misc stuff that it once was , but on the other hand , i am 5 minutes from there and i stop in at least once within two weeks and i rarely walk out empty handed

[Kalvin]

Iceblu,

Check out the prices at Busy Bee. The CT133 is an X2 on sale right now for $698. Princess Auto in Calgary told me they would match BB's price.

Plus the P.A. unit came with a set of collets.

I ended up getting an X3 from Grizzly.

Cheers, Kalvin

[Stepper Monkey]

Getting an X3 probably isn't a bad idea. I think the Taig is still clearly the best machine for what you need it for, but if you are going to go with one of the Chinese mills, the X3 is probably your best bet. The overall cost of doing one isn't really much if any higher than for an X2 in the end, and for a much more capable machine. The mill is more expensive to start, but you don't need a lot of the other bits like extending the base or converting to belt drive or messing with bearings either, and the rest of the drive components are going to be about the same cost either way.

The Taig is well sturdier than you give it credit for, capable of some pretty impressive feats for its size. What you are asking it to do certainly wouldn't tax it in the least, while it has a lot of advantages you could use.

However, if you are really unsure and feel the need to go with a heavier mill, just go with the X3 over the X2, its a hell of a lot more machine than the X2 and simpler to set up. You will spend more on an X2 getting it to anywhere close to the capability of an X3 than just getting an X3 to start with. Neither one will do what you specifically want to do as well as the Taig would, but overall the X3 is a great mill and would be a lot closer to what you need than an X2, unless you spent more money and time modding to do what you want than an X3 costs anyway.