[EddieO]

Ok, this is going to be a long winded post.....lots of newbie questions and a fairly straight forward request about responses.

The request on responses is simple.....please just answer the questions, don't attempt to tell me I am getting in over my head or that I am wasting money or the what not. There is a bunch personally that I am not going to talk about that factors in the decisions I am making.

So, with that being said, I have decided to start a machine shop out of my garage, mainly to support my side business of RC Car parts that I have been running for 5 years now and am going to be doing it full time now. My business mainly did motors and batteries, along with the occasional specialty part or tool. Motors and Batteries have changed a bunch, since the acceptance of Brushless and Lipo batteries, so to keep my company going, I am going to be moving in new directions with machined parts, while still doing the motor and battery thing. I will also be machining some Airsoft gun parts (not very big) and possibly the occasional small car or bike part for my dad/brother. Nothing will be very big, say bigger than a shoe....

I am a very big novice at machining, but I am well on my way and eager to learn. Ordered quite a few videos and books, along with working on setting up a mentor thing local. I am going to be buying a few mills, but I want to get my workhouse out of the way now, while I am able to make it happen.

I have narrowed my choices down to the Sharp 2412 or the Haas Minimill.....

Now the problems I face are the following.....

Since the unit will be going in my garage at home, which is attached to the house, I have a few size and power issues.

First, my garage door, if I take it off the hinges and everything MIGHT squeek at 84 inches, probably more like 83...once inside, I have 112 and techincally, I could cutout some drywall if I need a few more. I have tried finding the minimum hieght specs on both machines, with little luck. I have a sturdy 4 inch floor from what I can tell.

Second, is power....I am not a power expert, but from my understanding, 3 phase is not very doable for a reasonable price in residential neighborhoods. I am already gonna have to upgrade my box, as I am out of circuits anyways. I don't really understand the whole phase convertor thing, tried reading about it on the net, but the info is very generic.

Now on to the machines......seems like a toss up really. Some people seem really sold on the haas, but the limited few posting on the sharp think they are amazing...

The pros/cons

Haas

Pros
Well Built
Solid rep
small foot print
single phase power requirement

Cons
tech/repair seems to have issues in certain areas
might be too tall
guides are not as good sharp from what I read

sharp
cheaper
better guides
seems like better customer service, regardless of where u live
cheaper
bigger work space
from what I read, its shorter max height

cons
3 phase power (oof)
less info on the net about them


Other questions I have is about accessories and software. Which do I need and what comes with the unit? Any ideas what I would be looking at price wise out the door? I worry about calling the companies, cause they are just gonna tell me what I wanna hear and then find out its not.

I have attached photos of items similar to what I would be machining for RC parts.....Airsoft stuff is basically internal parts for the guns, very small....

Just to be clear again, my situation sets me in buying this machine. I am in the process of buying a couple of other units.....a smaller CNC for prototyping and a manual mill for whatever, mainly just to learn and stuff on or even a prototype...

Thanks for looking and any help you can provide, keeping my RC company going is keeping my dream alive.....

Later EddieO

[ckirchen]

I fit my MiniMill under an 83.5" door frame; though I had to loosen the clamp for the cable loom and fold it down to the side. Once inside, the ceiling is 96", so I had to cut a hole above the machine for the loom. In use, the top of the head has 1" or 2" of clearance.

A rotary phase convertor is pretty easy to set up, so don't make that a deciding factor. But don't forget to include the cost of the RPC when comparing the two.

The MiniMill has linear guides and the Sharp has boxways. Linear guides use recirculating balls with zero clearance and boxways have multiple sliding surfaces with a minute clearance. I've read that linear guides are better suited for speed and accuracy, whereas boxways are better for heavy loads.

The higher maximinum spindle speed on the Sharp might be nice to have (8000 rpm vs 6000 rpm on the MiniMill).

Chris Kirchen

[little bubba]

Thats an awful lot of words for asking a simple question.

Since you asked not to tell you not to do it, I won't. However the one thing you didn't answer in your ramblings (I ramble too) is why you narrowed your choices to Haas or Sharp? And also why you have decided on new (guessing here from your post) not used.

The question I think you needed to ask was "what machines should I consider". I don't think you would be disappointed with either the Haas or the Sharp (I'm not a Haas fan, the salesman never brings beer, but they can certainly make money). I think you would be happier with the Sharp over the mini-mill though, to me it seems like a lot more machine for the money.

Other machines I would consider, are the bridgeport (hardingequotes.com to get a price and options list), Fryer, Kent has some small enclosed VMCs that look nice (a guy up the street has one). A PM member that recently passed away bought a Litz Hi-tech (mitty??). He shoehorned it into a garage and it was a whole lot of machine for the money, somebody else bought one over there too and they both seemed very very happy with them, I'd never heard of them, but it seemed a lot of bang for the buck.

Phase converters, they really are easy, 2 lines in, 3 lines out, and make sure you ground it good. If you don't foresee 3 phase in the near future, don't go cheap, buy quality(ask me how I know). A lot of people love the phase perfects.

As for the other stuff you need, like what???? Tool holders, Maritool is fantastic money spent, good quality, fantastic prices and a small American business. Vises, shop around. Software, unfortunately you are going to actually have to talk to people, if you are worried about or think you are getting the run around tell them to go screw. You're a business man now, you have the money, you're in control.

Good luck, its a wild ride, but well worth it.

[EddieO]

I am certainly not opposed to looking at other machines. Haas is a name I kept hearing, so I started reading.....read a lot of good stuff about the minimill, but then I stumbled on the Sharp while reading about the Haas...seemed to be a similar unit in my price range that could do the work I wanted....

There seems to be a LOT of stuff out there to buy, so it gets confusing......I will go check out those other brands, see what they got.

I am not totally opposed to used.....but, on something so pricey.....I would rather know it was my POS from the start, not someone elses headache that I bought. Seems the availability of the minimill or sharp used in my area is limited too....

Thanks for the info so far....

Later EddieO

[vlmarshall]

Have you seen the Haas 'office mills'? They're even smaller than a minimill. I don't have any experience with anything smaller than the VF-3s, which I've used for 13 or 14 years now. Great machines.


Good luck with your business, I'm an RC fan, myself.

[EddieO]

I checked out the office mill.....and pretty much everything I read, says if you can fit the minimill, don't get the office mill.

I am gonna call haas and sharp tomorrow, see if I can setup a demo or something....or find someone local with one.

Later EddieO

[Geof]

.. if you can fit the minimill,....

And if you can fit the MiniMill get a SuperMiniMill.

More money and you will need a rotary phase convertor because it needs 3 phase.

10,000rpm spindle.

Almost double the rapid speed; 1000 versus 650

Much faster tool changer; the shuttle moves in quicker and the carousel indexes faster, tool changes take about 1/3 the time of a standard MiniMill.

[jdelaney44]

Briefly -

Check out used machines, too many great deals on great machines out there now not too.

Lot's of people do fine on phase converters, agree, not a factor.

Lots of machines get taken apart and put back together for a move. It's just a matter of $$$. A couple hours of a mechanics time is probably cheaper than tearing up your garage.

You should absolutley get a demo or have the dealer arrange a site visit to a referenceable client. This is a huge investment. Well, it would be for me.

Drive a bargain. People want to sell. Use that in your favor. Should not slow you down much.

Sorry, don't know crap about either machine.

Good luck, happy hunting.

Best,
John

[DareBee]

Considering you appear to be doing all aluminum work with mostly small diameter cutters. Spindle speed will be one of the most important factors for parts production.
EG a 3/16 aluminator cutter wants to run at over 10,000 for ideal cutting which brings your IPM way up and your cycle time way down.

[JDenyer232]

I believe the Sharps use the Fanuc oi-mc control, which is what we have on our Fanuc Robodrill, a very user friendly and solid control. With that said we just got an SL10 lathe and man the control on that is really nice, for one it's a 15" lcd, and you can buy IPS as an option to machine simple parts. For the more complex stuff we use Sheetcam, a very inexpensive and versatile Cam program. Looks like you do a lot of 3D stuff so you might want to invest in a good 3D cam software package. Of the 2 controls I prefer the Hass, for one the screen is much larger and easier on my old eyes, and two I like the fact that most functions are just a button push away, with the Fanuc you have to scroll through menus with softkeys, not bad once you get used to it, but once you try a Hass control you can really see the difference in ease of use. If it were me I would go with the Hass SuperMiniMill. Especially if I were doing aluminum, your gonna want that 10k spindle, trust me. You should also budget in a laptop and DNC software if you are gonna be running complex 3D stuff, the laptop doesn't need to be new, an older one running 98 or XP is fine, just make sure it has a 9 pin serial port. If price is a concern then look around in the used machine market, there maybe some hobbyist that bought one of these and now needs to sell, now is a great time to look into the used market. Hope this helps.

[LUCKY13]

I agree with Geof. It looks like you will mostly be working with aluminum and the super is going to trump the other two hands down.


IMHO if you can afford to talk any of these machines, you can't afford not to get all you can get for a machine. But do look at the big picture, tooling, software and assy will all play a part. I think if your going to be doing things like the wheels you will need a 4th axis also.


There are some good deals out there on used equipment, but I think in your possition it is a safer & more productive route to go with the new (if the Haus guy doesn't bring beer, stock your own it will be your brand anyway then). Out of all of these machines (encluding the super Geof meantioned) I would let budget, spindle RPM and fitting in your garage point the way. The spindle RPM will be your number one indictor of performance with these machines. And you really can't go wrong with any of them. And yea don't worry about 3 phase, but do have good wiring to feed your new phase convertor, or machine, which ever way it goes. BTW, small aluminum parts, high speed is the key.


The small & manual machines you meantioned are a smart idea. You might even look into a small CNC decktop mill (something like a Taig or X4 even or better yet a Tormach)and use it for awail before you even buy your big machine. Getting your feet wet will teach you alot about what you will need. It will also save you some money in the long run when you crash your cheaper mill learning instead of your new expeincive mill. You get the right desktop mill I don't thing you will need a manual mill. Also a good desktop lathe will go a long way in complimenting all these machines.

Really the more I think about it the Tormach mill can handle the manual needs, plus a good CNC prototyping machine, and you can get a Duality lathe to go with it. You can use any of these CNC machines in a manual way with a simple hand held pendant, so I would not put any resources into a manual machine. The Tormach package would make a great starter,prototyper, manual, lathe, doall kinda machine that has great service and proven performance with good quality for its price range. It will be there years down the road working right beside your new big machine. There is a section in this forum on the Tormach. You can also get some nice software packages with it that will help on the other machine. Of course this all depends on what you where going to spend on second machines, but it would be worth looking into the Tormach for these needs. Heck, depending on your production rate you might find you don't need anything else.


As far as Haas vs Sharp, don't worry with it, get the machine that fits the need best. The Brands are good, the specs are what to look for (spindle RPM, table trave, spindle to table distance, rapid speeds, fit the garage, tooling cost, is there local service, etc,etc,etc.....)


Jess

[EddieO]

Thanks for the posts.....I have been getting tons of good info and doing lots of research.

For the smaller cnc, I have been looking at the mikini mech unit being offered for a great price and the customer service so far from them has been top notch in answering my questions and such. I like the fact its full enclosed and such, with a very small foot print and excellent specs.

For lathes, I have a smaller emco I bought for my RC motors and really never used much, till the end, when we developed a ring that went around the comm tabs to prevent them from blowing apart at high RPM. We had to turn the arms down a little at the tabs for them to fit on.

I also have a large older monarch (I think). I never used it, bought it auction for the rc stuff, then was told it was way to big for what I was doing with the motors. I got it at an auction for $500 and it came with a bunch of collets and other stuff (like 3 boxes worth). I have not looked at in years, as it just sits in the back of my dads store. I plan to bring it over and use it if possible, along with the emco.

I talked to a couple of the companies who make the wheels already, they all do them on a 3 axis unit from my understanding.

For software at this point, I am looking at Mach3, OneCnC and Rhino3d.....all seem to have good support and followings, while being reasonably priced. I heard they like to bargin with the onecnc, and I love to bargin.

I was able to look more into the 3 phase convertors.....seems the pricing varies, especially as you go up in power. Anyone know what size I need for the supermini or minimill?

Thanks again for all the help....

Later EddieO

[Geof]

...I was able to look more into the 3 phase convertors.....seems the pricing varies, especially as you go up in power. Anyone know what size I need for the supermini or minimill?

Thanks again for all the help....

Later EddieO

Where is Donkey Hotey? He is the authority on Haas and RPCs.

For the MiniMill you do not need a converter but if you do it should be something at least 10hp I think. For the SuperMiniMill you will probably need 15hp.

[EddieO]

I stand corrected.....just on the SuperMinimill....

I know its weird with them, cause I think they are rated one way with the motors, but if you actually pull the motor out, its only a 10hp or something like that....at least thats what I think I read.

Later EddieO

[Donkey Hotey]

Where is Donkey Hotey? He is the authority on Haas and RPCs.

I'm an authority now? :withstupi

A rotary phase converter isn't a big deal. I wouldn't let that steer my decision. Single phase power in a nice convenience but when it's your living you're talking about, that's a pretty minor player in the grand scheme.

You don't want any advice about other machines, etc, etc. Sorry, but you're going to get it now.

No matter what you pick, keep some things in mind. Foremost, every second that that machine isn't cutting chips, you are losing money...period.

I recently bid a job for 1000 parts. I cut every corner I could, had custom tooling figured out, etc, etc. Ultimately, I was going to have 24 parts in the machine at a time. In the end, I was going to spend less than three minutes total on each part. That included cutting the raw stock, machining, tumbling, drying and packaging. My bid was $5/each, based on $100/hour. I didn't get the job and I wasn't the cheapest. Others are willing to work for less per hour. Maybe $100/hour sounds like a lot of money; it's not.

One of the seemingly minor considerations in that job was tool change time. If I had done the parts one at a time instead of ganging 24 at a time, the machine was going to have to make 5 tool changes per part. The 'slow' Haas toolchanger advertises 4.5 seconds, chip-to-chip performance (that's if the tool is in the next pocket). That's 22.5 seconds per part, wasted on nothing but tool changes (if done one at a time). Making 1000 parts, one at a time? That's over six hours of nothing but the toolchanger running. That's $600 worth of profit, lost while waiting for the toolchanger in only the first 1000 parts.

Because I ganged up 24 parts, the total toolchanges were cut down to less than a second per part (averaged). The only way I could accomplish that was through the use of $6000 worth of vises and custom jaws in the machine.

Buy yourself a CNC machining center (even the small ones), buy some tooling, spend a few grand on vises or other workholding, get some CAD software to design all of those products you want to sell, etc, etc. In the end, you'll be out a lot of money. For round numbers, lets call it $50K (and that's really low--I'm out three times that much).

So to pay off $50K at $100/hour, you have to produce pure profit for 500 hours. That means that your time, the electricity, the coolant costs, cutters and everything else aren't factored in. Include all of that and you're looking at 4-6 months of that spindle running full time before the equipment has paid for itself (you haven't made a dime yet). Remember, this is 100% spindle time. It only counts toward the debt if it's running and producing resale parts.

Now how many RC wheels or other things do you think you can make in an hour? Are you planning on one vise? Two vises? Four vises? The more workholding, the longer your machine will run unattended. Those vises take up space and cost money. Figure out how many parts you need to make per hour to pay your expenses, figure out how many you need to run at a time. Choose the workholding based on that number of parts. Choose the machine based on what will hold all of those parts.

Remember what I wrote above: if the spindle isn't cutting, you're not making a dime. All the time spent flipping parts, changing parts, shoveling chips, designing, programming, etc, are all lost minutes. They don't count toward your debt. This is where fast toolchangers, chip augers, good enclosures and lots of vises pay off.

So how many wheels per hour? 4 wheels, both sides? That's $100 for a set of wheels. Fifteen minutes per wheel or 7 minutes per side is all you've got if you expect to sell those wheels for $25/each. That doesn't include material costs, cutters, coolant or anything else.

And you have to be able to sell 8 sets of those wheels per day or 40 sets a week if you're going to pay off all that equipment in 6 months.

You should also keep in mind that those wheels really are lathe parts. You really need a lathe to make the blanks and the mill to do the detail work as a third or fourth op. There's lots of handling time in those. Will the market bear what you need it to, in order to make a living?

I'm not trying to talk you into or out of any particular machine. What I'm trying to do is get you to really think about your manufacturing process. I suspect if you really do the math, you'll find that you either need multiple machines (more spindles = more dollars / hour) or you need a larger primary machine (longer unattended run time) to meet your profit goals.

In my case, I chose extensive banks of Chick vises so I could keep my Haas VF-2 running for a minimum of 30-40 minutes per cycle, unattended. That frees me up to run my semi-automatic Haas TL-1 lathe or do other pre and post run work on the parts. In my case, both spindles are earning value. In the future, I hope to add more spindles to reduce the costs / increase profits per hour.

Making a living from one spindle, in a consumer/hobby market may be a challenge for you. Step carefully so you don't box yourself into a machine that is too small to earn a living.

[Geof]

Goodness me. He is also an authority on good business practices.

And writes more betterer than I can.

[EddieO]

I appreciate all the advise.....I understand the math, and such. I have ran some big business before, but a lot has changed in my life, so I am going down a new path. My money situation is a bit different than most..........there will be no loan, no investment really.......I have the 75k or so to put in this project NOW and if I don't, it will be gone.........so in the end, I won't be paying a loan back or the what not, in my eyes, I will be running the machine at my time + materials (stock, cutters, power, etc)......thats it. I know it sounds weird, but its how it is without getting into my personal life and such.

As for your market question.......the wheel market is pretty big and growing, but the designs are stale. There is also a LOT other products to make. RC moves at a very fast pace. One day its Car A.......we all buy it, drive it, buy parts, etc......a year later its car A 2009 edition........none of the old stuff works, so everyone is back to square one.

That being said, if I can bang out say 10-15 sets of rims a week and maybe 20-30 of say 5-10 other smaller parts (chubs, spindles, mounts, etc)......I will be a HAPPY camper from a profit standpoint. I am looking at a bigger machine the superminimill or sharp because I want to bang them out as fast as I can for a decent price. A cheap $5k chinese mill could probably do it, but I would probably get one set a day done.

And the wheels do sell for $100 a set Aluminum parts in RC are pricey, mainly cause no machine shop will make em.

I talked to the local Haas guy today, they are setting up a demo on the 6th for me.....a bigger mill may be the answer, dunno.....but from what I have seen so far, the ones I am looking at can do the job in a reasonable amount of time.....and are fairly user friendly.

Now the original question, what size converter do I need?

I do appreciate all the help and advice....

Later EddieO

[Donkey Hotey]

The size of the converter is going to depend on the size of the machine. Figure on 50% more than the Haas power rating: 30hp RPC if you buy a 20hp Haas.

Geof will make a very good argument for the Super Minimill and I agree with his business model: (run 2 super minis in the same footprint as a single VF-2). My version is to buy a VF-2 and load it up with more workholding. My choice is less efficient but more versatile (envelope-wise).

If you're absolutely sure you're going to be running all small parts, the Super Mini is a good choice, but don't decide before you consider the VF-2 and the additional envelope it offers. It also has a really good coolant and chip auger system.

You should also consider the Renishaw probing option. We've been through this process with new buyers about a half-a-dozen times over in the Haas mill forum. The probing is one of the highest value options they have. The downside is that it eats up about 4" of your envelope on one side of the machine (for the tool presetter).

Goodness me. He is also an authority on good business practices.

Just regurgitating all that I've learned from the old timers.

Edit: I just looked at your profile. You're in Selway territory for that Haas. Do a search on this site for Selway and know what you're getting into. My local Haas Factory Outlet is outstanding. Others haven't had much nice to say about Selway in your area.

[Geof]

.....Edit: I just looked at your profile. You're in Selway territory for that Haas. Do a search on this site for Selway and know what you're getting into. My local Haas Factory Outlet is outstanding. Others haven't had much nice to say about Selway in your area.

Do the search as Greg suggests, but don't let it be too much of a deterrent. A few years back Haas had some quality control problems on new machines and they often needed warranty service. Recently things are much, much improved. I bought two SuperMinis earlier this year, they were in production within a day or two of arriving and have been flawless.

[EddieO]

Got to talk a little to the Haas rep.....he seems to think the Mini or Super will fit most of my needs well, but also thinks I could do a lot of work on my lathe, mainly for the wheels, which was suggested in the thread earlier.

I checked out the Lathe's I have......the one I had for my motor arms and such, is the Emco Compact 5. The reason I bought it was the old motor guru who showed me the ropes, used a unimat, and the compact 5 was basically the replacement to it.....its seen very little use, but surely does not look like something I should be machining 2-3 inch wheels on...

The other lathe I got, was the one from the Auction. I had one of the guys get the part number off it for me, its listed as a Jet 1024 made in 1979. It works.....looks old. I got a bunch of collets and tooling with it when I bought it for $550 in 2004......it has sat unused in my dads storage area since then.

I am really thinking neither of these lathes meet what I need to do, so I started looking at the Haas line of lathes. The SL series seems to be more than I have to spend along with my Super-Mini mill, but I think I could make a TL-1 fit into the budget and still have room for the tooling....

I looked around for used Tl-1....seems with some tooling and such, people want as much as they are new, even for ones made 5+ years ago or am I looking in the wrong place. I did find an HL-1 fairly close for 22k......

Any advice? Am I traveling down the right path? I got room in the shop....

Later EddieO