[tobyaxis]

That holds true unless you love what you do and do what you love, in which case:

Ideally:
100%fun

Realistically:
60% paperwork
39% pleading for money (aka ass kissing)
1% fun

That looks about right.

[sbi1406]

Now in my gray years, I am a mechanical design engineer, and just love cutting down the fresh from collage with all of there degrees, and absolutely no practical knowledge at all, in my youth, I started as a machinist, now I am classified as a master machinist, and foundryman, finished my collage after 50, because it was he only way I could get the classes I wanted.
I work in a shop that has machine from 1942 to brand new 2008 4x vmc's, we do mostly Aluminum and cast iron, and I watch the reverse of what you are talking about, people using new diamonds to cut aluminum all in the wrong way,
try a face cut, 15* diamond using a 60*lead with 0.050" depth of cut, 256 rmp & 0.004" feed, and the managers walk by and feel good because they see chips flying?
And they will argue with me when I tell them that the older machine, aka 1942 vintage J&L#5s were designed to use sq, triangle & round tooling. They also do not like me back there running machines, since I was taught to make the gears talk while machining, they think I am abusive??? or it might be that the last time I ran a job on a j&L I ran it faster than they do on a CNC chucker?
Any way, learn your trade, enjoy what you do, this makes all the dumb things pass with out giving you ulcers, and watch the trade publication and want adds, You may find your dream job where you are King and can really have fun making parts for your old employer at a profit and the bean counter will never figure out how you can due it, since they can not rum anything past there desktop and spreadsheet.

# On a lighter note, in one of my collage courses, I listened to a graduate engineer state that foundries are a dying art, and that all cars parts are fabbed from sheet, I asked him if he walked to school ad then challenged him to let me see his car and point out the castings, hehehe, when we got out side I found 90% of the class did not know how to pop the hood??? Then the fun began as I showed them the engine castings

[MicroMill]

You are not the Lone Ranger in this environment. I recently spent the best and worst 5 years of my working life at a Tool and Die jobshop. I took a job to do "the computer stuff" and help with an "office automation" project. The adventure that followed, inspired me to write the ordeal up as a "case study" in how not to run a business. To net it out, "the shop guys" were honest, geniunely interested in quality output, and I could leave my wallet on my desk and never think twice about it. The "management" on the other hand, were back stabbing weasels. What was so incredible to me was watching folks (management) that basically had a vocational high school education with no desire to learn about management techniques to address employee issues, productivity improvements, etc. I had worked for 30 years prior to this experience in a wide range of businesses. Insurance companies, banking, transportation, electronics manufacturing, and distribution. People that had Doctorates in their area of speciality, never exhibited such egotisical arrogance as was present in this group. It reminded me of high school, where freshmen were hazed by seniors. Suggestions that were clearly an improvement over archaic processes were scoffed at with "the not invented here" mentality. In my position there I had worked to train the "workers" on the use of computers to improve their ability to save their setups and the organization of data (After hours, on my own time). Management saw this as a threat to their control, unbelievable paranoia. After they failed to implement four different office automation attempts ("we don't have time to enter in data") , I threw in the towel, and walked out the door.

[Geof]

I read the post by MicroMill and sbi1406 and thought it was deja vu all over again (to quote a baseball player). Back in the mid 1960's I was the young upstart fresh out of an apprenticeship who was threatened by the oldtimers because I cranked things up using newfangled carbide tooling; they didn't like it when I made more bonus than they did. Of course those old timers are long gone and it is my generation who are the old timers the majority of which as toby mentioned earlier are stuck in the mid '60s. Relax, try to work around them without drawing to much attention to yourself and don't walk down dark alleys with any of them.

[arinchang]

Hang in there with the job. Sometimes you will have to be patient/persistent with bringing about change. It takes selling of the idea to other people so they take ownership of the idea.

“All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident.”

See how long it took for CNC machining to become self evident. My big beef is that manufacturing is never really taught in engineering schools and thus a lot of things get designed that cannot be built good, fast and cheap. One take away from the good manufactures(specifically the ones that have been schooled by Demming, Juran) is that design and tolerances start with the manufacturing process first. That way the practical tolerances a part can be actually made is designed in and there are no suprises by the time production comes around.

[aaron p]

We just got 2 fresh graduates from Texas A&M working in manufacturing engineering, and they dont even know what a Chuck or Jaws are for a lathe. Never even heard of a endmill. The sr manufacturing engineer wants me to come work with them, but since I dont have a 4 year degree, the HR people wont let me. He told me its BS and they could use a guy from the floor that knew what was really going on, but it was out of his hands.

[JimPAC]

At times I think I should have become a engineer.

Apprenticeships for Machinist are almost all but gone. You are not by any stretch a Machinist!

If your lucky enough to be trained / mentored by a "Machinist" that started in the 60's ~ 80's that has kept up with the latest and greatest, you will realize that by any standards you will become an engineer. Programmer, Designer, Tool builder, Planner, Estimator, Metallurgist, (Business Owner)!! Us old farts use the term (Chief, Cook and Bottle Washer). Back then Would be Engineers had to complete an apprenticeship in their perspective fields before formal education began. Does your company in Texas provide tuition assistance?

Learn to go with the flow and seek out those that are willing to teach! Learn the complete process of the parts you machine from raw stock to assembly! Be careful with feeds and speeds that may change the molecular structure of the material your machining!

Your still young and should endeavor to further your education. The things you change have been done already by several before you.

GO TO SCHOOL and get that degree in engineering! I did it when I was over 40!

Hang in there KID

Jim

[garfieldsimons]

So become an engineer. Does not take that long.

[tobyaxis]

I read the post by MicroMill and sbi1406 and thought it was deja vu all over again (to quote a baseball player). Back in the mid 1960's I was the young upstart fresh out of an apprenticeship who was threatened by the oldtimers because I cranked things up using newfangled carbide tooling; they didn't like it when I made more bonus than they did. Of course those old timers are long gone and it is my generation who are the old timers the majority of which as toby mentioned earlier are stuck in the mid '60s. Relax, try to work around them without drawing to much attention to yourself and don't walk down dark alleys with any of them.

Now you know how hard it is to "Not draw attention to yourself"
Especially when engineering is hounding you every 30 minutes and you have your Lap Top out on the desk with a Solid 3D model explaining that their design is great but this small feature wont work.

Guys like these have nothing better to do. Heck if it were me I'd be over there trying to learn something useful rather than being a PITA.

Not all of the older generation is like this thankfully, but you will run into them quite often.

One of the worst things is that people can't seem to mind their own business. They think work is a social event LOL

[aaron p]

Apprenticeships for Machinist are almost all but gone. You are not by any stretch a Machinist!

If your lucky enough to be trained / mentored by a "Machinist" that started in the 60's ~ 80's that has kept up with the latest and greatest, you will realize that by any standards you will become an engineer. Programmer, Designer, Tool builder, Planner, Estimator, Metallurgist, (Business Owner)!! Us old farts use the term (Chief, Cook and Bottle Washer). Back then Would be Engineers had to complete an apprenticeship in their perspective fields before formal education began. Does your company in Texas provide tuition assistance?

Learn to go with the flow and seek out those that are willing to teach! Learn the complete process of the parts you machine from raw stock to assembly! Be careful with feeds and speeds that may change the molecular structure of the material your machining!

Your still young and should endeavor to further your education. The things you change have been done already by several before you.

GO TO SCHOOL and get that degree in engineering! I did it when I was over 40!

Hang in there KID

Jim

I went to machinist school for 2 years and held a 4.0gpa the entire time I was there. I learned more from actually doing the work in the real world shop. The few old machinists ive met were total pricks and couldnt even talk to a person in a normal atittude. Like they were mad at the world or something. Gave up on them and just figured out what works best for myself and reading books.

[JimPAC]

I went to machinist school for 2 years and held a 4.0gpa the entire time I was there. I learned more from actually doing the work in the real world shop. The few old machinists ive met were total pricks and couldnt even talk to a person in a normal atittude. Like they were mad at the world or something. Gave up on them and just figured out what works best for myself and reading books.

I'm sorry you had to experience ******** in need of a serious attitude adjustment!! As I said before Apprenticeships are all but gone and they were OJT. It sounds to me you have a real natural ability to MAKE IT WORK! That's one of the best teachers of all.

I don't allow that in my shop and if there are differences of opinions that are critical to success I some times let them try them both to see which one works best. Machinist Schools are at best barely adequate, compared to OJT with a respected mentor! The best thing I do is share my craft with anyone willing to give their best! I've trained hundreds of fine machinist through the years and encouraged them all to continue their education. A few have ended up with their own shops and I still advise them when they call or come by. Its a dam good trade and guy's like you give it a good name.

When you shove things up someones IQ they keep the bad taste for ever. When you present things like a question looking for an opinion then it usually works out.
Whatever you do don't let that place kill your spirits of wanting to improve things. Talk to the Sr engineer that seems interested in you and ask him to sponsor your quest for more education.

You can work things out on a machine pretty well, now learn how to make opportunities out of problems. You can do it.

Jim

[MicroMill]

You guys have probably seen this before, but it is always a thought provoker.

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.

As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey will make an attempt with the same response -- all of the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Keep this up for several days.

Turn off the cold water. If, later, another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it even though no water sprays them.

Now, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.

Replace the third original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing the fourth and fifth original monkeys, all the monkeys which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs.

Why not?

"Because that's the way it's always been done around here."

[JimPAC]

Right on

It's been a while since I've seen that but it still makes me laugh and the visuals keep coming!

Thanks

[FastRR]

Some of their unwillingness to listen and apply, may have something to do with your age. Older folks can be arrogant at times about wanting to listen to someone younger than they are. Some lder people tend to have the opinion that they should know more because they have more "experience" and some of it is just pride. Pride isn't always a good thing. I learned at a young age as a machinist to listen to all that you can learn from people older than I was. Soak up as much knowledge as you can from them and don't let it bother you that they don't listen to your ideas. One day when you have the money... open your own CNC business and make your millions Then they will look back and say...' he had some good ideas, he is a smart guy, maybe he will hire me'.

The Monkey story is funny I once worked for an employer who was one of those monkey's himself... he said, come on in and give us your ideas. What he really should have said was, 'keep your ideas to yourself', because that was his attitude. "We have been doing it this way for 40 years". .... and hence that is why he is still in a 5,000 sq ft building using manual machines.

[MicroMill]

Well, I'm now retired, and I'll tell you first hand, thick headedness is not necessarily a function of age. I've generally found it to be inversely proportional to competence. I've also had over a 100 highly technical folks reporting to me, and I've found that people will surprise you with ingenuity, and productivity, if you just give them a chance to succeed.
A good manager will encourage people to do well, not be-little the employee for asking for guidance.

[Geof]

.... Older folks can be arrogant at times about wanting to listen to someone younger than they are...

Whadda mean "at times"? I can be arrogant all the time and I don't care if the person I am not listening to is younger or older.

And my experience having built my own business is that the comments you get are not 'he had some good ideas, he is a smart guy, maybe he will hire me'., they are more along the line of 'you are lucky' or 'you exploited people'.

[MicroMill]

Geof, somehow your tagline "An open mind is is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out." just doesn't seem to match:

"I can be arrogant all the time and I don't care if the person I am not listening to is younger or older"

[lovebugjunkie]

We just got 2 fresh graduates from Texas A&M working in manufacturing engineering, and they dont even know what a Chuck or Jaws are for a lathe. Never even heard of a endmill. The sr manufacturing engineer wants me to come work with them, but since I dont have a 4 year degree, the HR people wont let me. He told me its BS and they could use a guy from the floor that knew what was really going on, but it was out of his hands.

Just don't let them build any bonfires, seems structural engineering is not one of A&M's strong points.

[Geof]

Geof, somehow your tagline "An open mind is is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out." just doesn't seem to match:

"I can be arrogant all the time and I don't care if the person I am not listening to is younger or older"

I put a big smilie after it; what extra do I need to do to indicate it was not entirely serious.

[welchmechanical]

Hi All. This thread really caught my interest. My old man was a machinist and I grew up with hearing him complain about those damn engineers. I was lucky to have him teach me about how things are made from a young age. Not just model airplanes or woodworking, but real machining. 5+ axis machining in the early 80's when no GUI's could show you tool collisions and you read the G-code like the Matrix streaming in front of you.
In high school and college I was luck enough to work with machinists and good engineers trained during the Apollo days when I was still in college. These were engineers that would make the first articles of their own designed parts. Then they would hand off the follow-up parts to the operators. These guys could make a 3-axis manual mill do some amazing things that some "machinists" could not make without Mastercam and a full CNC mill.

Damn was it frustrating to in my senior design engineering class to have the teacher read from the book and tell the class how wire EDM is a slow and inaccurate process to only be used when necessary. I spoke up and said, "no, not really" and his eyes shot daggers at me. I have been there too.

I started my business after getting tired of watching so many decisions be made that I just could not understand. That I thought were stupid. Well, after starting the business I realize that management can and does make bad decisions, frequently they are balancing many tradeoffs I never had any idea they were considering.

Example -- We worked slowly for 2 years to setup a data management program for our CAD files. Finally after sifting through the salesman's BS on the benefits of the systems, we realized that the software would not pay off under any scenario so we decided to clean up our home brew file management system and run with that. Our hard core CAD guy thought this was stupid and that we needed to run the best tools like the big companies. But when all sides were looked at, a simpler solution was the best choice. My point is sometimes management may not be a stupid as we think.

Some of the other comments here have reinforced my feelings on how I run my business. I bring the machinists in with the design engineers from the very earliest hand sketches. This has saved our asses multiple times. I can't say that this has helped us avoid those "unmakeable" parts because honestly, we haven't made those mistakes in years. But this has helped us weed out those annoying design features like sharp inside corners or calling out blind holes when thru are fine and a lot faster. In the parts we make (lots of features, tight tolerances, small qty less than 12 of anything usually) things like this can add thousands of dollars in labor.

JimPAC hit on something I strongly encourage my guys to do -- turn problems into opportunities to come up with solutions. Managers like when you find a problem and not just bring it to their attention, but come with a few solutions to the problem ready to go.

We really trie to tie the engineers, machinists, and assembly people tightly together so we make the best hardware possible. We are lucky that we are in a niche with customers willing to pay a premium for things to be perfect out the door the first time.

We are adding machining capability now. If anybody is looking for work in the Maryland area, let me know. Here is our old website, and our new one (not officially released yet so everyone here is the first to know about it). I am a pretty flexible person and have been known to bring people in part time or pay for them to work here for a week (while taking leave from current job) to see if they are a good fit and then help with relocation expenses.

Old: www.wmdllc.com

New: http://www.kellyritsondesigns.com/wmd.1/index.html

I try to avoid the frustrating things mentioned here. This topic is good reference for me.

Oh, one last thing, good managers should be willing to hear and accept constructive criticism from all employees, not just those immediately under their management. Any company that doesn't do that looks at the employees as cogs in a machine.

Wayne

P.S. I hope this isn't looked at as thread-jacking. Just wanted to put in my $.02 and a small plug for the fact we are looking for good machinists. In this market, I figure people want to know where opportunities are, especially ones not posted by a recruiter but the company owner.