[aristoi]

I am building my first machine. I Am a team leader for a cnc laser cutting department, so I am familier with cnc just not the building of the machines.

I am building my machine based off of the plans at http://www.scribd.com/doc/2999440/cn...-plan-cnc-plan Difference is I am using a mixture of 3 mil and 4 mil instead of Wood. I have my eye on a set of used steppers the stats are.
Superior Electric Slo-Syn stepper motors:

NEMA 34

Model# M092-FF-206

370 oz-in

4.0V

4.0A

4 wire

by the time the gantry is finished I figure it will weigh about 30 to 40 pounds. I will be cutting 4mil mild steel. Speed doesnt really matter at this point but price does. They are ASKING $180.00 for three of them. there used. My question is are these over kill can I get away with some thing less powerfull and therfore cheaper? Or are even these ones not big enough?

Ill post pictures as soon as I find my camera.

[LaserImage]

That price seems high to me. How about Keling - KL23H284-35-4B (1/4” Dual shaft with a flat);387 oz-in - $49.00 each? I don't know how the two compare otherwise, but Keling seems to have the best value for the money.

If you pair up the right Keling motors with a Gecko G540 and a 48v PSU, you'll get lots of power and speed.

Gary

P.S. I know just enough about this stuff to be semi-dangerous. I'll defer further advice to "the experts".

[aristoi]

Thanks for the info. I was looking at buying the stepper you suggested then on the same page I found the KL23H286-20-8B NEMA 23 BIPOLAR STEPPER MOTOR 425 oz-in, 1/4” Diameter shaft with a flat

KL23H286-20-8B (Dual Shaft) Specification Price: $49 Rated Current: 2.8A, Rated Voltage: 4.17V

Seems like more power for the buck to me, how ever I may be mistaken. I will be building my own power supply so I can make it as big or as small as I want it. I also been gotten some StepGenie IC and put together a controller board that ive been playing with on some old printer steppers. the electronics is not a problem with me I have been doing that as a hobby for a very long time.

Ive also been reading about using an old vacuum cleaner motor to power a spindle but not sure if that will cut threw the 4mill

[springlakecnc]

My 2 cents:

STOP !!! Did you buy the stepper motors yet? Do you know about the "ramping" stepper motors do? I.E. slower than poop acceleration and deceleration? Dude, I think you want servos NOT steppers! check it out! Steppers are a mold cutters nightmare, and I would think problems for a laser, unless the laser can cut the same width and as smooth, when changing speeds, I.E. ramping. If so, continue on. Also, don't cut the size of the stepper motor to close; you know they are "open loop". You have top-notch stuff, like a laser, and you are about to power it with an outdated drive system. I will catch a lot of flack over this because there are a lot of stepper motor lovers on this site, and there are a lot of people putting WAY to small of motors on their machine also. Every time i say something about motor size, i have a whole army of table top machine builders wanting to tar and feather me. Good Luck with your project. OK, IM DUCKING!! Go ahead and throw stuff!

[aristoi]

I am afraid you might have misunderstood. I am building a conventional cnc table for my personal use. I am not building a laser cnc yet. I was approached by the owner of the company I work for about building this machine to do brackets for the company. I will be taking over the job from a outsource company that went out of business.

Even tho I am building it to do work for my company it will be my privately owned machine. So I will be cutting the brackets in my garage during the day and bringing them into work with me at night and welding them onto the parts my guys and I cut on the lasers.

So I will be a out-source for my employer and a employee. It promises to be very lucrative But I am footing the bill for the first machine, that's why price needs to be kept down for now. As soon as Profit starts rolling in I will start on a better machine done with better parts. For now tho cost must stay low but still do the job. The parts I will be cutting for the company are simple but I also want to be able to do other things like engraving kitchen cabinet doors.

[Crevice Reamer]

Take a look at this video of router running N23 387 oz motors and G540:

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72426

You don't want any slow running N34s and 425 needs 84 Volts to run this fast.

These electronics only cost total of $510 (motor, G540 controller and 7.3A PSU) and are plug and play. If you need to run 4Th axis, then will need a larger 10-12A PSU.

CR.

[joejared]

Take a look at this video of router running N23 387 oz motors and G540:

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72426

You don't want any slow running N34s and 425 needs 84 Volts to run this fast.

These electronics only cost total of $510 (motor, G540 controller and 7.3A PSU) and are plug and play. If you need to run 4Th axis, then will need a larger 10-12A PSU.

CR.

You might want to visit http://www.interinar.com . If you do use their larger drivers, make sure you put the reversed biased diodes on the board where there is vacant space for them, as eventually a motor will disconnect and the power supply will be a good surge suppressor. On a positive note, their microsteppers support up to 2.5amps/30volts and cost between $62.00(1/16th) and $66.00 (1/8th)


I buy them by the dozen and the only drawback is that about $0.20 worth of diodes probably cost me more than $400.00 last year.

[aristoi]

Well thanks for the help so far but ime afraid Ive gotten myself into a little jam. I ordered the suggested motors and a c10 break out board. I am very happy with them and couldn't believe the fast shipping. I got it in less then 12 hours, so I will buy from them any time.

Now here is my problem. When I got the steppers I went to hook them up to my home made driver circuit. Made with the stepGenie IC's. Didn't take me long to relies the motors I ordered were Bipolar. the StepGenie set up does not do Bipolar. I emailed the guy who I got the stepGenie system from to see if he could give me a clue about how to get the stepGenie to work with Bipolar motors. It says in the PDF file that it will but it needs extra components. The fella I talked to thruw email basically told me the same thing but said he didn't have any examples or pdf files on how to do it. Not complaining about the guy he was polite and got back to me very quickly so ime impressed by that.

So Here I have theses lovely motors and break out board that I cant use. I have about a week left to finish building this thing and I am down to my last $50.00 for parts. I might be able to get another $20.00 if I sell some stuff but only to cover shipping. I have seen several alternatives on ebay but still being in the learning process I am not sure they will work. Also how big of power supply will I have to build for this thing. Ive got the stuff to build any power supply I want I just have to know how many volts and amps to set it up for.

If I don't get this thing built in another week they have to find some body else because were running out of brackets. Please guys have pity on a beginner and give some advise.

my motors are
KL23H284-35-4B (1/4” Dual shaft with a flat) 387 oz-in
Specification Price: $49

phase 2, deg/step 1.8, rated voltage 3.15 current/phase 3.5 resistance/phase 0.9ohms inductance/phase 4.1mH holding torque 387 oz. in

I know its a pain giving newbys advise but you guys are the best game in town. I appreciate all you do.

[springlakecnc]

Remember me? I'm the guy that accuses everyone of using undersized motors!

There is a form to post jobs, in this web site, and if by not running the parts 1 week from now means you give up the job forever, maybe you should have someone help you cut the first lot, and give yourself more time to get your machine running. You not only need to finish your machine, then you need to fight your way through billions of set up screens in Mach3, and “optimize” your computer, which those could take 5-10 hours of time, or more.

Just a tip, when you finally get everything done, and are ready to power it up for the first time:

1) Power up 1 axis at a time, so if there is a fatal mistake you only take out 1 axis, not all three.
2) Power up the axis motors first, before you even plug a computer into the C-10 breakout board. If the motors are “on and holding”, now your ready to plug in the computer and try motion. If the motors are NOT on and holding, solve that problem first, before you plug in your computer.
3) The C-10 is logic level strength, don’t run wiring from it, through 10 amp limit switches, you will be plagued with false limit switch trips. 1 amp switches work.
4) Use carbide tooling so you can run faster spindle RPM’s to help those undersized motors you have
5) there are two small jumpers on the C-10, one to set a group of pins to input or output, and the other to set the common's to 0 volts or 5 volts, make sure they are set to what you want. Also, look where you put power into the C-10, you need power in both the power in and the enable in, or it won't work.

I hope yours powers up and runs right off, but i can tell you, i have been involved in close to 500 cnc mill retrofits, and they don't always run the first time you power them up. Its a bad feeling when you push the jog button and nothing happens, and there is nothing to tell you whats wrong.

I can help you with most everything but the stepper drives and motors. I built maybe 25 stepper motor controls, but i always used Geckos or Keling drives. Drop Keling an e mail, they will tell you what voltage and amperage you need for their motors, i wouldn't think not very much amperage. Once i did a presentation, with a nema34 steppermotor and a 24volt, 3 amp, Sola power supply, and the motor ran great, but i didnt push it to the power or speed limit, it was only for driving in 10-32 set screws.

[Crevice Reamer]

Sorry to hear about the jam you are in. You never mentioned Unipolar drive, and your original motor choice would not have worked with it either.

You are building a commercial machine, that will need to do a lot of work, but using hobby electronics? The problem with hobby electronics is that you end up spending more time trying to make them work than cutting parts. This is fine for a hobby, but EXTREMELY bad for a commercial machine.

The REAL solution for your dilemma is a G540. You should find a way somehow to get this.

Unipolar drive is inferior. But if you MUST continue on this unwise course, maybe Keling will trade your 387s for motors that will work with Unipolar.

What are your power supply specifics? What Voltage and Current will your drive handle?

CR.

[aristoi]

It will not be hobby electronics for long just have to get it going with them is all.

As for the power supply I haven't built one yet but that's nothing for me. it will take me maybe three hours to build one to what ever my power requirements turn out to be.

What do you think of this controller. I was thinking on getting 2 I sold my car sterio to a guy for $30.00 That should give me just enough to get two of them. If they will work for me. They just have to see me threw the firs t few runs then I will have enough money to upgrade to the proper stuff.

2 AXIS CNC Stepper Stepping Motor Driver Board

[aristoi]

One more question witch would be better for my motors. the 4: KL-6050 Microstepping Driver, Heat sink is included, $59.95
Specification
Features of this driver
* Supply voltage up to 60VDC, current output up to 5.0 A peak
* Resolutions: 1/2, 1/8
* Over Voltage, Over Heat, Over Current Protection
* Suitable for 4,6,8 lead motors
* DIP switch current setting:
1.5A,2.0A, 2.5A,3.0A,3.5A,4.0A,4.5A,5.0A


Or the KL- 4030 Microstepping Driver, Heat Sink is included, $54.95/pcs
Specification
Features of this driver
* Voltage up to 24 to 40VDC, current output up to 3.0 A
* Selectable resolutions, 1,1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64
* Suitable for 4,6,8 lead motors
* DIP switch current setting:
0.9A,1.2A,1.5A,1.8A,2.1A,2.4A,2.7A,3.0A
* Over voltage, heat and short-circuit protection

Remember my motors are KL23H284-35-4B

[Crevice Reamer]

To use the Keling drivers, you will need a break out board. Which one are you going to use?

What is your power supply Volts and Amps?

CR.

[aristoi]

I have the C10 break out board. My power supply is 48 volts 13 amps.

[Crevice Reamer]

Ok. Then the KL6050s are the way to go. At least these are decent drivers and will work reliably. Now you are talking a real controller. At last, I can see you actually getting up and running.

BUT:

C10 costs $26 and requires much potential trouble-causing wiring.

The C10 needs a 5V power supply--offered at Cnc4PC for $26.

The C10 has no charge pump to prevent accidents while computer boots--Offered at CNC4PC for $23.

You will need to buy connectors for cabling. $10-$15.

C10 board offers no opto isolation to protect the computer from damage. This is not offered as upgrade, so you will need to replace the entire C10 at some point.

$180 3x KL5060
$026 C10 BOB
$026 PSU for BOB
$023 Charge Pump
$015 Wiring connectors
-------
$270 total.

Future cost to replace C10: ~$100.

OR:

$289 G540 with Keling $10 discount.
$000 Has built in BOB WITH optoisolation AND charge pump AND logic PSU AND free connectors. AND most wiring is already done internally. AND you have a free extra drive for future 4th Axis capability.
------
$289 Total.

$289 Minus
$270=
------
$019. A whopping $19 savings!! But you DON'T have the mid band resonance dampening that allows better performance and you DON't have 10 microstep to full step wave morphing for high speed rapids. And you will eventually have to replace either the BOB or the computer. And you still have to wire everything up--You can't just plug in the computer cable, connect the motors and PSU and GO!

Now, I know you already HAVE the C10, and you can come up with the logic PSU and are willing to compromise some safety features. I know you are Hell-bent on saving a few dollars. I have given up on changing YOUR mind. This post is for others who maybe can listen to reason.

CR.

[aristoi]

I know you are Hell-bent on saving a few dollars. I have given up on changing YOUR mind. This post is for others who maybe can listen to reason.

CR.

Its really not about saving money. its about not having the money to spend. The economy here in Michigan is in the toilets. I discovered a little nitch to exploit to feed my family. It must be moved on now before some body else does. I am just a normal working stiff with very limited funds. As previously stated I just need to get up and running as cheaply as possible for now. Very soon however after the first check comes in I start ordering the right parts instead of the cheap ones.

Its not about listing to reason its about reality. The reality of the situation is money, or the lack of. I am selling my own stuff to bank roll this venture while my things are worth a lot to me they are not worth that much to others so I have not gotten as much as I had hoped and I am out of things to sell.

Please dont think for a moment that I do not respect your opinion or even that of springlakecnc. Nothing could be further from the truth. I will follow your advise to the letter at a future time but for now This just needs to get running.

Here is a picture of the 90% completed gantry. Yes I will be grinding down the extra long bolts. I would have to guess the gantry with out the cutting tool on it weighs about 45 to 60 pounds. made all out of 3M and 4M cold rolled mild steel. all parts were cut out on my company's lasers.

[Crevice Reamer]

How's your credit? You could buy everything you need with paypal buyer credit and take months to pay.

For the very REASON that you need to get up and running, you NEED a plug and play solution.

That all-steel gantry looks heavier than 60 pounds. Have you weighed it?

CR.

[aristoi]

LOL Great minds think alike. I had already tried that but unfortunately credit just isn't good enough.

Weighted the parts unassailabled with out nuts, bolts, bearings, and motors. it weighed in at 48 pounds. Most of it is 3m

[harryn]

Hi - just supporting springlakecnc's suggestion to post an RFQ on the forum to get a few brackets made by someone else to get started.

http://cnczone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=74

Who knows, maybe even just PM the people that are helping you out here to see if any of them would make a batch of brackets to help you through this first go. You would be surprised how flexible people will be to help someone - maybe even take payment over time. We are all in this "interesting" economy together.

If the brackets are not too complex, my brother has a manual mill in Toledo, but I am sure you could find someone on this forum to bang out 50 - 100 pretty fast.