[BobWarfield]

If I were able to stand infront of a CNC IH I would start pointing to each componant and ask, is this China or USA. What do you think the outcome would be???

I still really want the manual IH mill and think it's the best on the market in it's class. It's just that if this opening post from Gene was the first I had ever read or heard of the IH cnc machine, I would think it was pretty much a USA machine. This is not the case and this is my point.

This is just a question.....Is the ballnuts and screws USA?

The outcome would be exactly what Gene said it would be. I have one of these machines. I've taken it completely apart and installed the CNC kit on it.

The ballscrews and nuts are Rockford, and they're made entirely in the USA. See page 14:

http://www.rockfordballscrew.com/pdf...ballscrews.pdf

[nine 16]

RP Designs, goooood question on the availability of a CNC Kit from IH.

Message on the IH site "...Can Only be Purchased with..." Oh well and dang none the less.

Picking up a manual 12Z would be a great way for me to expand my home shop; I like their reputation and their machine's work envelope. I would prefer the IH Kit to one I put together myself (do I hear an Amen!), but I cannot afford both at once.

Apparently IH has good reasons for seeing a difference between unafforable scenario 1 where I buy the 12Z and Kit together but do not put the Kit on the mill for 6 months, versus affordable scenario 2 where I buy just the mill then 6 months later buy the Kit. Either way I have assumed full responsibility for the use of the Kit.

Hmmm, maybe, if when buying their mill, IH could accept a non-refundable deposit on a kit, with a limited kit-purchase window. If I am serious about their kit, I will not loose that refund. If I loose the refund, IH will have covered whatever associated costs there might be. Jus thinking out loud.

Bottom line for me, and many others I bet, is that if I go with their 12Z, I sure would like to use thier kit, I just cannot afford both at once.

What to do? What to do?
-Mark

[joeybagadonuts]

Bob,


In order to be fair it may have been better to say "retrofit in America"

Stating the country of origin of the X1, X2, X3, RF30, RF31, RF45 and Tormach style of machines as China or Taiwan is very true.

It may ruffle some members feathers however it is still true.

On the other hand the country of origin of Sherline, Minitech, Taig and Wigitmaster is USA and they are 100% Built in the USA.

Its not really badmouthing the machine or the company if they are built off shore.

Some people take offense if a product is not made in there country.

There are just as many people here on the Zone that have import machines and love them.

All of these machines are capable of machining decent quality parts so why argue or fight.

JoeyB

[banctecbobn]

Joeybagadonuts,

I agree 1000 percent with your post!!!!!!!!!

Also, why would one not be able to purchase a CNC kit at a later time? Is there small differences or manufacturing changes that require each kit to be fitted for each machine? I probably should call IH's directly but it's always nice to see questions and answers in these post for all to see.

[nine 16]

banctecbobn,

I've figured that one of IH's reasons for not selling cnc kits alone may be that there are some components that require fitting to a particular machine. And they must try to protect their well-deserved good reputation; it would not take long for a ham-fisted retrofitter to post a hundred accusations in various forums against IH for their "ill fitting parts".

Since IH is aware of guys like me who could only afford to buy their kit at some later date, yet they, for their own valid reasons, choose to limit kit sales to being concurrent with an 12Z sale, I apologize for this pretty much useless speculation.

CNC kit or no kit, the Industrial Hobbies 12Z is a leading contender in my search for a mill.

-Mark

[Hirudin]

This thread is pretty funny. This issue could be cleared up SO easily by someone from IH actually addressing these questions instead of the "fanboiz" and "trolls" flaming back and forth. The OP is severely lacking of information.

Would it be so hard to simply list the major pieces and where they were "made"? Also, if some pieces are roughed in China then finished here, I would like to know that as well.

[dertsap]

i think the simple fact that the product is made in America should speak for itself , I think IHCNC came on the forum to announce the product is made in the US in a noble attempt to assure his customers who are consious of where they buy their products that they are indeed buying a made in US product . Plus in these times it would appear to be a good business tactic . The fact of being honest about which parts aren't made in the US shows a fair amount of integrity .

allow the gentleman some time to shine

[Hirudin]

I don't want to harp on this lest I be accused of being a troll, but legally speaking: "Made in the USA" doesn't really seem to say a lot.

I think it is great that the CNC side of their mills are largely made in the USA! If I was more experienced with machining I would be the proud owner of one right now. I just don't like the conflation between saying the CNC kit is made in the USA and having us believe the majority of the mill is made in the USA.

I will just leave it at this: I am merely curious. I would prefer to buy a US-made mill, but I have no qualms buying from China. If IH mills are in fact primarily made in China it will not make any difference to me given the fact that EVERY other benchtop mill larger than the Taig that I know of is also made in China.

[dertsap]

"Made in the USA" doesn't really seem to say a lot.

.

generally it doesnt say anything
i worked for a european company they came here to break into the North American market we did all the manufacturing here in Canada then everything was sent across the boarder to be assembled and lastly a big ol made in the US sticker on it which in my opinion was a kick in the nuts for the Canadians . Unfortunately in Canada we don't have this problem, because even though we manufacture and create a large amount of product i very rarely see a made in Canada sticker on anything anymore , which is a true shame because that sticker meant quality

[tobyaxis]

Unfortunately in Canada we don't have this problem, because even though we manufacture and create a large amount of product i very rarely see a made in Canada sticker on anything anymore , which is a true shame because that sticker meant quality

I would have to agree with you dertsap.

[Hirudin]

I only had one thing I knew was made in Canada. It was a short throw shifter (for a car). It looked like it was very good quality.

Must resist going off topic too much...

In my mind it all boils down to the quality of labor, which I think boils down to the pay rate, which boils down to education/experience. US workers are skilled so demand high pay (I assume it's a similar situation in Canada) that high pay means employers can find the best people for the job. To me, having the best employees means a business is more likely to make the best product. Chinese workers on the other hand are not paid nearly as well, so employers have to take what they can get.

[Joe S.]

I HAVE to chime in here . . . Being old enough to remember when EVERYTHING was made in the USA. First off, we made our share of crap too, but you knew it was crap when you bought it. At that time, made in Japan meant the same as Made in China does now. MY ONLY REAL BEEF WITH MADE IN CHINA . . are twofold #1. Why the hell should they get Most Favored Nation status when Officially they are our enemy? AND Capitalism, while making inroads there, is not exactly so as the Chinese Military owns and controls most manufacturing there, and therein lies the rub, why the heck put money in the pockets of people who want to kill us?
It took Nixon to go to China, and Clinton to give them the keys to the store.
EDIT: BTW lots of stuff is Made in Canada, especially automotive castings I E Rotors, Drums . . .

[ihavenofish]

I HAVE to chime in here . . . Being old enough to remember when EVERYTHING was made in the USA. First off, we made our share of crap too, but you knew it was crap when you bought it. At that time, made in Japan meant the same as Made in China does now. MY ONLY REAL BEEF WITH MADE IN CHINA . . are twofold #1. Why the hell should they get Most Favored Nation status when Officially they are our enemy? AND Capitalism, while making inroads there, is not exactly so as the Chinese Military owns and controls most manufacturing there, and therein lies the rub, why the heck put money in the pockets of people who want to kill us?
It took Nixon to go to China, and Clinton to give them the keys to the store.
EDIT: BTW lots of stuff is Made in Canada, especially automotive castings I E Rotors, Drums . . .

i wasnt aware china was the enemy. i thought it was "terror" (or maybe the constitution). anyhow...

theres one more thing made in canada i found interesting. the castings for the haas TM1. at least thats what the haas dealer told me.

[Joe S.]

i wasn't aware china was the enemy.

Communism is the diametrical opposite of Capitalism, Tyranny is the Opposite of freedom. China's people are not the enemy Oppressive government is, and it matters not, the Name of that government. I would LOVE to see everything sold in America have the wages of the producer listed alongside the price. America needs to be healed of it's addiction to slavery.

[ihavenofish]

I would LOVE to see everything sold in America have the wages of the producer listed alongside the price. America needs to be healed of it's addiction to slavery.

dont buy anything from kansas then... you might find some of the wages lower than china for the same job. (no, im not kidding!)

i have a few friends in china, and while of course many aspects of their government does suck for the people, in some ways they are more free than americans to go about their lives. alot of what you hear on the news or internet isnt really true either. most of chinese people for example have access to a fully uncensored internet and google.com and they dont all make 50 cents an hour. a computer animator for example makes $10-$15 an hour. take that kansas!

foreign policy things like tibet and taiwan also have 2 sides to the story, much like the iraq war does IN iraq. rule under the dali lama for example was far more oppressive than china could ever hope to be, and most taiwanese people dont care what flag they fly under as long as their business can thrive as it does now. you rarely see a balanced report on these subjects though, because everyone wants to spin it to suit their own agenda. the US of course wants to keep taiwan for themselves, a not allow china unmetered access to the technology that drives the modern world.



china is communist though, they must be oppressing their people! i read it in a book in the 50's!!!!



but china isnt communist, just like the US isnt capitalist. every government is a mix of all ideologies, trying to make something that works and are constantly in flux. do you really think that if the 1 billion plus chinese hated their government so much, they couldnt change it? their lives are improving in big ways every 6 months. by chinas recent record, they may have one of the only governments on the planet that actually does work FOR the people. as long as this continues, i think most chinese people wont be all that upset with their government. if it does change, you will see the biggest revolution in history.

the advantage china (and india) have right now is that they get to look at all the mistakes of america, canada, europe and all the other governments in history and make their best attempt not to repeat them. its going to take a long time still, but i think chinas form of government will one day evolve into the one the whole world adopts.


anyhow, im pretty sure your plan would utterly backfire when you saw the wages of the workers pasted on products. in fact, i would say thats a step directly toward communism.... the bad kind.

[arizonavideo]

To ihavenofish "but china isnt communist."

Please tell me you did not really say that.

If your government wont let you leave and you can't replace bad leaders then it is most likely Communist.

Back OT...

I purchased a manual IH mill a few months ago and it is a good product for the price with a few flaws but some nice upgrades from a standard ZAY7045 type of mill.

It has better lead screws, ground ways, a larger table and hardened gears in the head. The quill is loose and not nearly as tight as a RF-30 type mill. Doing the last pass with the column gets around this but it is a pain.

The mill is 100% made in China.

My shop still smells like the strange grease that they pack everything in!

I do like the mill, it works well and is vary ridged. I do wish my table was flatter and I may CNC it someday.


I did some fly cutting the other day.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...1&d=1240562062
SANY0089.jpg

[Joe S.]

* * * and they dont all make 50 cents an hour. a computer animator for example makes $10-$15 an hour. take that kansas!

And yet most Do.

foreign policy things like tibet and taiwan also have 2 sides to the story, much like the iraq war does IN iraq. rule under the dali lama for example was far more oppressive than china could ever hope to be,and most taiwanese people dont care what flag they fly under as long as their business can thrive as it does now. you rarely see a balanced report on these subjects though, because everyone wants to spin it to suit their own agenda. the US of course wants to keep taiwan for themselves, a not allow china unmetered access to the technology that drives the modern world.

Never doubted it!

. . . but i think chinas form of government will one day evolve into the one the whole world adopts.

Not without a fight, true our new president as well as the last several have pushed in that direction. China is the prototype of the New World Order and that is precisely why I do not like them.

anyhow, im pretty sure your plan would utterly backfire when you saw the wages of the workers pasted on products. in fact, i would say thats a step directly toward communism.... the bad kind.

Hey I do not live in a cave, I know how poorly paid many jobs in America are. America has an addiction to slavery, not yet overcome, that is exactly why our government does little to stop immigration, Federal minimum wage is a bit over 5 bucks an hour, and throwing our manufacturing base to the wind is helping to erode our value, as workers, there are only so many "service" jobs to be had, and why lose the jobs which generate the service jobs, if we do not have to? All we are presently doing is squandering our childrens inheritance and leaving them with a pile of debt . . . to China, Saudi Arabia . . . The west likes to send those jobs to China, because it never sees the human cost of cheap labor, the little villages who recycle electronic waste from Europe, US, Canada Australia, the children who's water is posioned with heavy metals, We imagine everything is made in nice well lit modern factories, by trained skilled professional staff . ..imagine it, that's all, while all the time they sell products here for less than the material cost. Do we deserve this? Yep we do, having grown up in the early 1970s I remember the stupid levels to which the unions went to drive business away, I saw the government crackdown on pollution, which is good, but then do not give the store away to a country willing to accept the pollution. And a last note: I REALLY hate, buying a product with a western name and western price to discover it is China's Junk! If I wanted that stuff I would order it directly from China, and some electronic items, I do as it is all made there anyway, eliminate the middleman. I would prefer, to buy from a U S Manufacturer, or Canadian, or Mexican MFG, guess what, they do not exist. We could argue all summer, and never reconcile. The bottom line is WE will continue to slide economicaly until we decide to invest in ourselves, and resist the urge to exploit the third worlds cheap products and instead insist, they produce and compete on the western level, as it pertains to pay, pollution, workers compensation, product quality . . . or keep their products.

[dertsap]

has anyone taken into concideration the amount of resources that china had purchased at a premium , take metal for example they bought so much scrap that it drove the costs of metal up and they kept on buying more
now much of it's not worth the fuel to get rid of and these types of things will hurt them when we begin buying it back from them at a low cost because they cant hold it any longer
a man will always become consumed by his own greed

[ihavenofish]

"And yet most Do."

most dont.

the typical(though not minimum) unskilled manufacturing wage in china is up near $2 an hour from what im told by people who work and employ there. in the us its $6.55 in most states now (in kansas its $2.65).

for reference south korea has a $5 minimum unskilled factory work wage, and taiwan is $6 or there abouts. mexico is $1 and india has no minimum, but from friends comments who have worked there, 50 cents would be the norm but its rising rapidly. where i live in canada its $9.50 and will be going up again next year to $10.25. these are minimum laws of course, and there are many people making much more than that in factories. ford pays $30/h here... we know where thats gotton them of course.

but while we get to take advantage of those numbers, $2 in the chinese countryside gets you what $6.55 gets in kansas, possibly more. so its not fair to say that the wage is abusive without context, its simply on a different scale that plays to our favour.

anyhoo

[ihavenofish]

a man will always become consumed by his own greed

the us has shown that recently. greed on the part of the banking system. i dont know if china will be consumed by greed, but perhaps by people. i think the world just has too many now to make them all happy. someone will always be left behind as theres just not enough resources to go around - even if you could adopt spread it evenly.