[henry_phd]

Your machine your rules of course.

[tobyaxis]

If one is really paranoid about crashing the machine, you are always free to read the gcode by yourself to ensure no bad feeds/speeds/overlimits. It's really not that hard to scan through some code by hand.

If you want to read through the 9k to 1.8 million lines of code in my programs, your more than welcome Hence Predator Virtual CNC.

As far as a Machinist's abilities I do know a few that can handle what you do with advanced surface topologies, but they will use a calculator, paper, and No.2 pencil

If they want it faster, they use software.

[henry_phd]

I don't doubt machinist abilities. I've seen some guys, particularly manual machinist, make some amazing things that would take me a long time to program (mostly due to multiple set ups).

[Donkey Hotey]

If you don't want my money, I'll find someone else that does. It's really that simple lol.

If you think me paying for your machine time is something for nothing, I can't argue with you there.

Well, I think that's the rub: you're trying to reduce the amount of your money that you spend. That reduces the incentive for somebody to take on this kind of work.

If you're offering $500 worth of work a month, it's not worth anybody's hassle to risk damage to their machine or tooling. If you've got $5000 worth of business per month, I've got two dedicated machines, waiting right now, for your priority use. Vegas isn't that far from Palmdale.

[extanker59]

I will chime in one last time.
He says he is an "expert", has phd in his name, insults machinists, claims you can't be a CNC programmer unless you can program computers, etc...

Give up people. You cant change someone's mind who has done it before you, better than you, and faster than you.

Arrogance is different than confidence.

[mdlmkr]

Okay Doc, here is the way a lowly little machinist looks at it.

Lets say you want a bag of apples, but you dont have anywhere to grow an apple tree and the nearest orchard is about 100 miles away.

You don't think its fair that the store charges you for washing the apples and storing them and picking out the bad ones and then bagging them for you and then paying someone to ring you out. So you want to cut out all of that and just wait by loading dock and grab them as they come off the truck.

The problem with this is that the store will not make any money and will eventually go out of business. Engineer and machinist, maybe. But an economist you are not.

Machine shops are a business and there is a set revenue structure that makes them able to make enough money to keep the machines running. You want to cut out that stream by bypassing some of their revenue streams. Can it be done? Sure. Does it make sense for the shop to do it. No.

It costs the shop a certain amount of money just to turn the lights on. That expenditure and all other overhead is absorbed in programming time, set up time, machining time and finishing time.

Stop being a cheapskate and just pay fair market!

[Donkey Hotey]

You guys are all naysayers. He's a businessman and he's in search of a business. If one doesn't exist, somebody will create it for him. This is really no different than renting a car versus hiring a taxi. If you hire a taxi, you pay for every minute that the taxi is waiting for you. If you have a bunch of places to go, it doesn't pay. If you rent a car, you pay some portion of its depreciation up front, in the per-day costs but you do that so you have the luxury of using it exactly as you want to.

Considering that, I'll publicly make an offer (and I'm being serious here):

• $400 per hour for the spindle (2004 Haas VF-2, 10K spindle, 2-speed gearbox, 20 tool umbrella tool changer, Renishaw probing system, macros, programmable coolant, auto air gun).
• $800 per hour if you would like to use the machine in full 4th or full 5th mode (HRT210, HA5C or T5C configurations).
• 1 hour minimum, then incrementally charged after that. The time will be based on the simulation time that Camworks says it will take the job to run. If Camworks estimates it at 1.2 hours, you'll pay $480. No setup fee, no cleanup fee.
• Materials, cutters and consumables not included. You will specify what cutters you want used and will supply them with the job or pay for them up-front. Used cutters and other consumables will be returned to you at the conclusion of the job, in their original packaging.
• Every effort will be made to pre-run the part, both in graphics and dry run, at our expense.
• If you made a mistake that requires the code to be reposted: 1-hour charge.
• If something in the code does cause machine damage after the graphics simulation and dry run (excessive feedrates for example): you are responsible for the cost of repairs by the local Haas Factory outlet (parts & labor) up to the fair market value of the machine at the time of damage.
• If you prefer, you can buy insurance for the machine at a rate of $200 per part. That will cover you for damage up to $15,000.
• Tolerances, beyond the ability of the Renishaw tool presetter's ability are your responsibility. The machine will be prepped so all paths may run in cutter comp mode, per the diameters determined by the Renishaw tool presetter. No fine adjustments will be made unless prior arrangements are discussed and agreed upon.
• Removed metal chips become my property. Any solid chunks remaining will be returned with the finished part. Disposal of coolant and chips is my responsibility.
• Priority, 5-hour, hand delivery to Las Vegas is available, 7 days a week, at a flat rate of $400. Otherwise, shipping will be via conventional methods (UPS, USPS).

In return, your jobs will have first priority and will drop into the machine immediately upon arrival of materials. You will have a virtual machine shop at your disposal. You will not have to own the machine, clean it, set it up or push the green button.

I think that's a pretty fair deal and pretty comparable to renting a car. A few days car rental would exceed the monthly payment of owning the same car but it eliminates all of the associated costs of owning it. This might be a new business frontier. I've published my offer. Anybody willing to beat that may now step up and offer you their version, via PM or email.

[Tomorrow_man]

I don't think the Director really cares what a machinist thinks, only what he can be used for, like most in his book of contacts.

After reading his other posts, I'm apt to believe he's the kind of person that might have the education he claims, but uses the skill he knows best, how to take someone else's experience, skills, and accomplishments and use them as his own. This explains his 'basic' knowledge, enough to sound like he knows the subject. That skill is useful for 1st line managers, you know the ones that always thinks saying 'hurry up' is an way to motivate employees. And use things like 'bad attitute' as an incentive to improve moral.

Good luck finding the next pigeon.


TM

[Donkey Hotey]

I don't think the Director really cares what a machinist thinks, only what he can be used for, like most in his book of contacts.

As it should be. Why should he care how somebody feels? This is business, he's a businessman, making a business proposition. There are no feelings here.

This reminds me of the joke: would you have sex with a stranger for a million dollars? If you would, then we've established what you are; now it's just a matter of negotiating the price.

Go check this thread for the current, going rate for a self-employed machinist. I'm not offering a machinist or manufacturing engineer and I'm not charging all the time that would be necessary to pay for one. I'm negotiating the hourly rental of a current, low-hour machine that somebody wants to use on a part-time basis.

Based on the fact that I've paid $100 per day (plus delivery) for a forklift I could have bought for $4K, I may have priced the machine too low. We'll see how things go. :cheers:

[henry_phd]

I have my price in mind. PM and we can discuss.

[Donkey Hotey]

I knew we'd get down to what he really thought.

$800/hour with no setup fee, for a 5-axis machine is high? You have some one-off, 5 axis part that is going to take an hour to run and you want a 5 axis machine to be setup and all the tools calibrated for less than $800?

You're looking for a specialty market...available at your whim. You have to pay for that. Car rentals are able to be done at a lower rate because they enjoy 75% or better usage rate. As for the costs you quoted on rental cars, BS. On my last trip, the rental was $20 per day, just for the insurance. You're looking at $70/day minimum on a market that enjoys high rental rates and a decent resale return when they sell it. A rented spindle is not going to get nearly that usage. If you want access to such a thing, you've gotta' pay for that.

If you owned a VF-4 for a $30K investment, then you should have kept it. It was far lower cost than any other option you're going to find. If you truly believe that setup is done by unskilled labor, then you could have contracted that work when you needed it

Honestly. I don't see what your dilemma is. There is no way on this green earth, you are going to get somebody to give you their tech database, that amounts to all of their years of knowledge, machining and business strategy, and their machine, for $25/hour (or even $50/hour).

Shop rates here are $40/hr for prefered customers or $25/hr for independent manual skilled machinists including all tools.

For $800 an hour, I can rent a $15 million crane with 3 man crew with insurance. If you find someone to pay you $800/hr when your cost is $5/hr with 0 labor, I'd definitely go for it!

Zero labor? I am not worth something? Business management has to get a piece of the pie. You also priced everything out as 24/7 usage. Nice try. If you find such a shop, they will have a queue so long that it'll be a year before you can get anything done--they'd have to operate that way, just to stay alive. And all of the maintenance and cleanup time has to be amortized into the cost of that billed hour, not to mention the beer-fed meat servo doing the work.

If you really are a businessman (which apparently, you're not), you'll realize that nothing is free. If you want convenience, that costs money. If you have all the time in the world, you can wait in line for for this mythical $25/hour machine. Go to China if you must. If you need your parts made, I'm available.(nuts)

[henry_phd]

No attack necessary. Your machine your rules.

[Tomorrow_man]

No attack, just my opinion.
if it hits home just a little, I can see why you would say it's an attack.


The rent a car, get a taxi analogy:

henry_phd hails a cab owned by the Donkey Hotey Taxi Company.
henry_phd gets in and says he'll use your company taxi for the ride he needs.
But since he already knows how to drive a car, he wants to help you drive or show you some shortcuts through the backyards of Las Vegas, it will save him some money. Now you the driver has to decide if it's worth the trouble.
You think okay, business is slow so I'll try. With henry_phd driving he's able to cut an 8 mile trip costing $30 to a 5 mile trip costing him only $18.75. He exits the cab giving you $20 and says keep the change. Wow! a $1.25 tip!
But after he walks away, you get out and look at you cab. The muffler and catalytic converter are on the ground, one tire is going flat, there's now a hole in your gas tank, and one of the wheels is bent. Next time he won't use you, because your equipment is trash. You'll have to repair or replace your equipment before he'll grace you with his services again.


Now, I'll go back and read what he really has to say.

same .02, I want to get -my- money's worth.


TM

[Tomorrow_man]

So, you consider yourself an expert because you used a demo of Camworks?
Oh, you read the sales brochures and talked to a guy who told you he was an expert?

Are you related to Jon Banquer by chance?


TM

[henry_phd]

I posted a request on CNCZone in the CAMworks forum looking to give a shop some business and save some time on the programming since we both have CAMWorks.

If you have suggestions of companies, post them here.

[Donkey Hotey]

Also I'm not to insult you but just point out the obvious: you don't even have Camworks. Why do you feel the need to talk about the TechDB/Camworks/Price when you don't even own it?

Why? Because your pricing is so far out of line that the Camworks stuff just makes it even more absurd. You want to have an open exchange, with a shop that has that much expertise and that much investment and you want it for under $100/hour. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here that the $25/hour charge was for a 'machine only' type of arrangement. If you could be exchanging in that manner with a Chinese shop you'd be doing it.

The neighborhood gardener charges more than $25/hour. You can't get a car or motorcycle worked on for less than $50/hour (closer to $100 at dealerships). You want to be turned loose with a $100K asset for $25? At least with a car rental, you have to prove that you have a driver's license before they hand you the keys.

I'll tell you what, do you have your PE license? I need a licensed PE to sign off my designs. I figure that getting that license probably cost in the neighborhood of $100K. You have no overhead other than a cup of Starbucks and a laptop. I'll pay you $25 per signed-off design. After all, your education will be paid for in only 6 months (you work 24 hours a day, right?), just sitting in Starbucks and signing off designs. And licensed PEs are really nothing more than migrant farm workers, with a briefcase and a calculator.

If you're not willing, there are plenty of Indian and Chinese engineers that would gladly take that work from you. They're happy just to stay here after they graduate from our schools. Some of them will work for a bowl of gruel and the opportunity to live in the US. My asset makes tangible products. Your asset is only worth what the market will bear. Are we still negotiating?

[henry_phd]

Moderator should close this topic. Clearly we are off topic.

[Donkey Hotey]

No, a 5-axis machine isn't worth $800/hour but if somebody wants that specialized of a setup for one hour, that's the cost. That was my point. I don't pretend that $400/hour is reasonable for ongoing work either. That's what it costs if you want everything to drop and produce your parts quickly. In reality, that's the same as the cost of $60/hour production being upset for a day, to rush your job through. That was my whole point: convenience, technical and intellectual investments cost money.

I don't think this is off-topic at all. You're in the Camworks forum. Anybody coming along can see exactly what you're looking for, and what you think it's worth. Maybe they'll leap at the opportunity.

Personally (and I'm clearly not alone here): it's not worth $25 to risk running somebody else's code in my machine. Heck, I won't run my own code for $25.

I publicly outlined my offer, you expressed what you see wrong with it. Now others can offer you better deals. Let the bidding stampede begin.

[Tomorrow_man]

Well, it's back on topic now.

No, I do prototyping and I would never give a client my TechDatabase.
But it's easy to copy, go to camworks.com, download the default database,
add a couple of long reach endmills 1mm, .5mm, 1.5mm, a couple of small threadmills, and one 2" diameter convex radius cutter and you'll have my database.
Oh, add your machine too.

I charge $75 an hour for any machining, programming, inspection, scanning, I fix glasses for free. I have repeating clients who think I'm a bargain for the work I do for them. I don't need your work or the headaches that will go with it. And getting paided I'm sure would be a chore. Keep looking for your sucker, you'll find him, but not here.

I doubt if he's a PE, pHD was easier to get, you don't have to produce anything or be responsible for your decisions, but I'm sure he has the BS.

Still spending that .02


TM

[Geof]

.....Moderator should close this topic. Clearly we are off topic.

Yep, he's a Ph.D. As soon as things stop going his way he wants to bail out.

I have a Ph.D., so I guess that makes me an expert too, and this expert says you really don't have a clue about running a viable long term business.