[Ed from NY]

Howdy!

I got a Super X3 back in 2006, but due to several life changing events I never got a chance to put it together, until now...

I took everything out of the boxes, cleaned it up a bit and powered it up. I have not plugged it to a computer yet. I figure I would start with the basics... like does it spin?

Well it does spin, but I noticed jerkiness in rotations below 300 rpm -- that is okay because I remember Syil saying something to that effect, so I'm okay with that. However, at any speed there is a crock crock crock sound coming from the spindle.

I hope you guys can help me. I'm okay with computers but my experience with machine tools is more along the line of... chainsaws

I'll try to take a video and post on UT. I'll post some pics as well as things move along

Wish me luck! Lots of loose parts on the table right now.

[Ed from NY]

I uploaded a video with the noise:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk7dwgjbcDo"]YouTube - Syil Super X3 Spindle Noise[/ame]

There is no play in the spindle itself, it is pretty solid. There is play between the pulley and the spindle as you turn it left-right, but that is all. The noise is not there if I let the motor run by itself (no belt) or if I turn the spindle by hand.

Any ideas on what to do next?

Thanks!

[Ed from NY]

I gave you wrong information. The play is in the spindle. (Edit (a day later): not it is not... well may be it is... well if I sound confused thats cuz I'm... sorry)

In each revolution there is a space in the rotation of 20-30 degrees which has some play. The play is roughly front to back and about 1/64 give or take.

The link provided by M100 in the other thread http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/projec...on%20Guide.pdf goes over how to take the spindle apart. That looks a bit intimidating. I can give it a try, like following the pictures, but I do not have a press. Not quite sure on what to look for as a cause of the problem either.

Ideas?

[Ed from NY]

Okay, I found this thread http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50760 which seems to be a problem similar to the one I'm having.

So I went ahead and started taking it apart.

I may have messed up one of the mods. See on the 1st and 2nd pictures how only 1 wire is hooked up and 3 are dangling. I think that was the mod that would allow me to control the spindle speed from G code or may be something else. I have no idea if and where there were connected, but I suppose it is a safe bet that the intention is not that they just dangle.

I also hit a snag... My mill is different from the one in the pdf link above. You see in the 3rd pic below is says "67. remove first locking screw" well mine is not there, see 4th picture.

What is the next step to release the spindle?

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

.

[timsvb]

Hey there Ed,
It's good that you took that photo of the dangling wires early in the piece. You should be able to orientate the components by chilling out for a while and doing a bit of detective work on the circuit board.And use the first photo to locate the wire positions.Those solder points should match up like a jigsaw to each other.Does look suspiciously like someone's had a play with it before though. There also looks like arcing on one of the tracks too.Possibly has damaged some other components. If you're a confident diy person tackle it with the worst case being a totally cooked board. or take it as is to a qualified tech.I'm new to the industry myself and hope i'm not giving you a bum steer. Best of luck.

[timsvb]

HI again Ed,
Looked up syil products in australia and seems they've had similar problems here too. Perhaps you bought a lemon. Maybe a look there might save you a lot of time & heartache.

[Ed from NY]

Hi Tim,

What do you mean "look there" the URL for the Syil Au seems to be out of commission *confused*

Well I got to use my macro lens

Geeky!

What we thought were arcs are actually patches: one circuity interruption and one soldering point. Another soldering point seems to be on the other side of the resistor that still has a wire. The last wire I'm not quite sure, but I think goes on the silver component next to the IC towards the middle of the board... probably a ground.

If that is the case I might know which wire that is, cuz it has an indentation that might match on the solder residue. The other two I can also try to guess.

I would fell much better if Syil or someone with a similar mod could check.

Still not sure how to take the spindle off... will go to Home Depot tomorrow to get one of those pliers to get the retention ring thingies off.

[timsvb]

tim again,ed,
try http://www.syil.com/community/showthread.php?t=37
This is from a forum a couple of years ago.Similar problems seem to have occurred with their modifications using X3s.Something related to spindle speed etc.There was no support from supplier at that time either.Without looking at your machine, I would suspect that it has something to do with that strange noise on your video.Could be your motor is actually trying to stop/start or reverse/change speed. Possibly related to disconnected wires.If you don't find above site,I'll cut and paste a few of their probs for you.suggest you look at these before you take the whole sh...fight apart.But then again I could be terribly wrong.I'm just a great believer in standing back and having a think first. Hope all goes well. Regards Tim.

[timsvb]

me again, looked at the photos of patches, and looks like you're pretty much on the money re: location of wires and patches.The mini components are smd resistors(miniature resistors),and the patches look like they could be bypasses for the variable speed modification.Would know a bit more if I could see it in real life.It's possible that the component with four red wires is some type of bypass driver for the original plc to you new mod.Sorry I can't help more.We have similar situation at work, where the only diagrams and tech info is in another language(mostly italian gear),and support is almost non existent or a closely guarded secret. Damned frustrating.

[sharpshooter90]

me again, looked at the photos of patches, and looks like you're pretty much on the money re: location of wires and patches.The mini components are smd resistors(miniature resistors),and the patches look like they could be bypasses for the variable speed modification.Would know a bit more if I could see it in real life.It's possible that the component with four red wires is some type of bypass driver for the original plc to you new mod.Sorry I can't help more.We have similar situation at work, where the only diagrams and tech info is in another language(mostly italian gear),and support is almost non existent or a closely guarded secret. Damned frustrating.

True to form, there is a lot of help from far afield, but not a peep out of Syil USA. You will be miles ahead to just gut the electronics and get a Gecko drive system and MachIII software. Put the old electronics in a box and return to the vendor marked " For suppository use only"

[Ed from NY]

Oh boy...

@tim

That thread points to a rocky road ahead. Still right now I have 3 problems:

1) The wires that either I messed up or which came lose on shipping. Impossible to know which, but they do like a cold solder problem to me. I'll try to email Xushuo who seem to be helpful when I was getting the mill.

2) The play on the spindle. It is hard for me to tell with certainty if there is really play and how much. The movement is more of a vibration and until I manage to get the pulley out of the spindle it will be hard to tell. Still it seems that the best practice is to take the spindle apart, clean it, examine it (God knows how) and put it back together. So I'm trying to do at least do that. I'm going to get the tool to remove the locking rings now to see if I can make any progress on that.

3) The pulley does have quite a bit of play. I need to figure out how to remove it from the spindle to see how that can be fixed (and also to remove the spindle from the machine). Right now the pulley is locked in place on the spindle and I do not want to force it the wrong way and mess it up further.

@sharpshooter

Replacing the electronics is way more than I bargain for... I was hoping to get the machine up and running in 3-4 days just to manufacture a couple of pieces I need for another project... that seems to have been way overoptimistic.

Off to get those pliers now...

[Ed from NY]

tim again,ed,
try http://www.syil.com/community/showthread.php?t=37
Without looking at your machine, I would suspect that it has something to do with that strange noise on your video.

If you could look, what things would you be looking for? May be I can record it and post.

[timsvb]

Tim again,
Had another look at the other Aust forum.Reckon Sharpshooter is on the right track.Ditch the syil and do either without the add on or get another drive.The poor other guys over here seem to have been plagued with problems.Looks like you may be able to restore those patches and possibly use the machine manually.Soldering looks like a two year old did it,and those smd resistors dont like a lot of heat either.When installing them, a regimented baking process should be used.Hopefully they have'nt been fried by the mods.

[Ed from NY]

3) The pulley does have quite a bit of play. I need to figure out how to remove it from the spindle to see how that can be fixed (and also to remove the spindle from the machine). Right now the pulley is locked in place on the spindle and I do not want to force it the wrong way and mess it up further.

Took another look and removed the pulley. It is mounted in a whole bearing assembly so you need to take the whole block off. See below.

The pulley + bearing is very smooth. It is the match between it and the spindle shaft is what has play. Looking at it it does not seem that it will be possible to eliminate it. I supposed that is the way it is supposed to be...

Can someone confirm that? That the play between the pulley and the spindle shaft is supposed to be there? (perhaps in order to allow the quill (?) to do its up and down thing)

Thanks!

Not sure if you can tell, but I'm not quite sure of what a quill is :lol:

.

[Ed from NY]

Tim again,
Had another look at the other Aust forum.Reckon Sharpshooter is on the right track.Ditch the syil and do either without the add on or get another drive.The poor other guys over here seem to have been plagued with problems.Looks like you may be able to restore those patches and possibly use the machine manually.Soldering looks like a two year old did it,and those smd resistors dont like a lot of heat either.When installing them, a regimented baking process should be used.Hopefully they have'nt been fried by the mods.

So you suspect that the crock crock crock noise is being caused by a problem with the electronics and not something mechanic with the spindle?

[timsvb]

Forget the electronics for now except to take the modification off and repair the circuit board patches, put the spindle assy back together,but pack some heavy grease(not a fistful)around the Quill.See if the noise is still happening,and if it is,has the grease dampened the noise?This will give you more of an idea as to what is happening.AIf the machine operates ok otherwise,if noise is less and all seems ok,then make an executive decision on whether to take parts to a machine shop to get repaired or not.Just chill and don't read too much into it yet. Character building time.All the best Ed and hope all goes well.And remember it hasn't happened till you've done it twice.

[sharpshooter90]

Oh boy...


Replacing the electronics is way more than I bargain for... I was hoping to get the machine up and running in 3-4 days just to manufacture a couple of pieces I need for another project... that seems to have been way overoptimistic.

Off to get those pliers now...

Ed,
Take a few minutes and read this forum and you will see that you are one of a long line of guys who have suffered the faulty electronics. Some guys like Neil can diagnose and repair, but if you are electronically challenged, you will be in for a nightmare. If you bought the unit direct from Syil in China, you are probably stuck with the problem. If you bought from the USA dealer, you could ship the electronics back for a refund. The base machine with the ball screw option is worth about 1100.00 from China, so add 20-30% for the dealer and its a 1500.00 piece without the controls. I would ask for the difference back and go to someone like Camtronics for a nice system.

[sharpshooter90]

Took another look and removed the pulley. It is mounted in a whole bearing assembly so you need to take the whole block off. See below.

The pulley + bearing is very smooth. It is the match between it and the spindle shaft is what has play. Looking at it it does not seem that it will be possible to eliminate it. I supposed that is the way it is supposed to be...

Can someone confirm that? That the play between the pulley and the spindle shaft is supposed to be there? (perhaps in order to allow the quill (?) to do its up and down thing)

Thanks!

Not sure if you can tell, but I'm not quite sure of what a quill is :lol:

.

Ed,
The quill is the housing that holds the spindle and moves up and down in the casting. Its a common design with a splined spindle shaft that slides up and down in the drive pulley which has matching splines. That clunking sound is most often associated with either a bent spindle which wants to cause the pulley to run eccentric on the bearing or the pulley was not properly machined and the bearing is eccentric to the center of the splined hole. In either case, the noise will change as the quill is moved up and down and the spindle is engaging the pulley at its highest or lowest point. Also, the back lash between the splines could be excessive due to errors in the broaching process.

[Ed from NY]

Forget the electronics for now except to take the modification off and repair the circuit board patches, put the spindle assy back together,but pack some heavy grease(not a fistful)around the Quill.See if the noise is still happening,and if it is,has the grease dampened the noise?This will give you more of an idea as to what is happening.

That sounds like a plan.

BTW, I was not able to remove the spindle. I think I need to take the housing they call "worm support box" #103. I took the 4 corner screws out, but it seems that that center top screw also needs to come out... the thing is, it is a hollow screw, like it is really a tube with a thread. That is #108 in the diagram attached. I have no idea how to take that out. See pic.

Putting it back together was very easy.

I just finished bypassing the interruption made by the mod, See pic.

Will plug it in shortly. Wish me luck!

Ed,
Take a few minutes and read this forum and you will see that you are one of a long line of guys who have suffered the faulty electronics. Some guys like Neil can diagnose and repair, but if you are electronically challenged, you will be in for a nightmare. If you bought the unit direct from Syil in China, you are probably stuck with the problem.

I got it in 2006 from China. Not sure if it would have made any difference going through the US, but there was no US office back then anyway. I have a lot invested in it. We just have to make it work. May be the controls will be fine. I have not even plugged it in the computer yet. Redoing the whole electronics is not going to happen... If I would get a mill these days it would be a full size machine, and then convert it. When I got the mini mill I lived in an apartment, now I have a basement.

Ed,
That clunking sound is most often associated with either a bent spindle which wants to cause the pulley to run eccentric on the bearing or the pulley was not properly machined and the bearing is eccentric to the center of the splined hole. In either case, the noise will change as the quill is moved up and down and the spindle is engaging the pulley at its highest or lowest point. Also, the back lash between the splines could be excessive due to errors in the broaching process.

Sigh... well I'll plug it in in another hour or so and post a video. Lets see if the little cleaning, removing the extra board and the greasing up helped.

Also, not in a position to spend too much money to fix it or in tools. Right now I do not have a job, so even getting a pair of pliers is something that I need to think twice about

Below the pics of how far I was able to get in the disassembly before I got stuck (now all put together), a picture of the board mod for posterity or in case we go back to it, and the mod bypass.

Will report shortly, hopefully with new video.

[Ed from NY]

Noise still there, perhaps a bit less than before at higher RPMs (extra grease ?).

I think the problem is the pulley being off center as sharpshooter said it could be. See how it wobbles up and down? Look at the black area between the two pulleys as a point of reference. Sorry for the camera shake.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkxgAIoRveo"]YouTube - Syil Spindle Noise After Putting it Back Together[/ame]

Not sure what to do now.

-----------------------

One more thing. I looked in my emails. I think the mod was to get the spindle to 3500 rpm (reflecting in on the LEDs). Once we get the spindle/pulley problem solved I can put it back in.