[Willyb]

Come on Guys, this is a Tormach Forum and now we have two non Tormach manufactures plugging their products here. It's one thing to have Chris post about his new purchase, but now we have to listen to two non Tormach Companies plug their product. It's time to move this thread to a separate Mikini Forum or start up a machine comparison forum for all makes.

Willy

[saabaero]

The Tormach forum has been hijacked under the guise of a comparison by someone who owns both machines ostensibly to benefit Tormach owners. IMO it is time to end this thread… it is certainly not benefiting me as a Tormach owner. I look to this forum to answer and to ask questions about the Tormach PCNC and related issues. This thread has morphed into a commercial for a competing product. Move it to another venue please. And someone posted that I was a troll...

Don,
So why in god's name do you keep clicking on this thread if your so not interested????? It's title ("anyone want to talk me out of a mikini vs a tormach" ) clearly indicates the content.

There's certainly no doubt in my mind why you do!

[Don Clement]

Don,
So why in god's name do you keep clicking on this thread if your so not interested????? It's title ("anyone want to talk me out of a mikini vs a tormach" ) clearly indicates the content.

There's certainly no doubt in my mind why you do!

A legend in your own mind and a mind reader too. BTW How was your discussion with Doolittle?

[ataxy]

ok now back to thread topic please

[saabaero]

Don,
So why in god's name do you keep clicking on this thread if your so not interested????? It's title ("anyone want to talk me out of a mikini vs a tormach" ) clearly indicates the content.

I'll ask the question again... why would anyone in their right mind keep clicking on a thread that they had no interest in?????

I'm sure there are others would like to hear your answer so stop evading answering the question!

[MIKINI MECH]

Just a few notes in comment to the discussion here:

1) In all of our correspondence and media, we are only trying to provide the information and media requested, keep the comments factually accurate, and pertinent to the discussion at hand.

2) We would warmly welcome this thread being moved and/or a machine comparison forum. We strongly encourage factual information being presented for comparison and research. We feel there is a lack of accurate, factual information in this market leading to misunderstanding.

3) The Syil X7 has substantially different metrics and is in no way the "same" the Mikini 1610L. Please keep information all information factual. We respect all vendors in this market, and ask humbly for the same consideration.

We apologize if our postings in this forum and/or thread were in the wrong place or were offensive in any way. It was not our intention to offend.

As an aside, we would like to publicly thank Tormach,LLC for their professionalism in addition to hosting this thread in their forum to date.

Good luck to all involved with your projects and ambitions. Be safe, and lets make some chips.


- Mikini Mechatronics

i don`t think it is good to make this thread on tormach zone.
also,mikini 1610 just same as syil x7,different it is they make big encloser with a computer.
we will also add more features later to make x7 better and worth to buy
i just make machine simple,and affordable.no need to much explain.

[ataxy]

it as allready been moved
and now may this thread move in a foward direction.

[Dave Berryhill]

...

I do believe the real downfall of Tormach as a company is the TTS tooling system in which I have lost several parts to and a couple drawbars and collets....

Can you elaborate on this? I plan on buying a small CNC mill in the future and would like to know about the problems you've had with the TTS tool holders. I've heard mostly good things about it here.

[Dave Berryhill]

I've been following this thread with much interest since I plan on buying a cnc mill in the next year or so. I run a 1-man pistolsmithing shop and want to be able to save time cutting dovetails for sights, checkering pistol frames and making small runs of parts such as sights. I"m not a production shop so the machine won't be running full time and the speed of the rapid traverse isn't really an issue for me. I currently do all my work on a manual Bridgeport clone so anything automated will be a big improvement. Work envelope size, accuracy and reliability are the most important issues for me.

My perspective on the Tormach vs. Mikini is that Tormach is a fairly well known product with a good record of customer support. For me to consider a different machine I would have to be comfortable that they are at least equal to Tormach in quality and support. There are other machines available for less money that I wouldn't consider because of their history of poor customer support or quality. Learning how to program and run a cnc machine is challenging enough for me so the easier it is to set up and run the machine, the better.

As a cnc novice my biggest questions are:

1. For a guy in my situation, what are the practical differences between linear ways and cast ways? As I said, overall speed isn't as important as accuracy and reliability of the machine.

2. How does the Mikini compare to the Tormach in support and ease of set-up?

[MIKINI MECH]

Dave,

Please feel free to give us a call to discuss our machines.

1) Linear rails (also referred to as Linear bearings) offer substantially lower friction, no adjustment, and no wear. That being said they are only a portion of the design decision that allows us to achieve the metrics we achieve. (Generally) We achieve on average 2-3 times the overall precision of a common cast way bench top machine, and do so reliably without continual gib or tram adjustment.

2) We will let Tormach and/or users respond on their portion of setup. All of our machines ship fully assembled in a single crate and tested from our facility in California. We also offer turn key machines with integrated and tested industrial control systems with Mach3 fully setup and configured. Essentially the setup of our machines is limited to unpacking and connection to power (and control if not integrated).

3) We fully service and support our machines. We designed them from the ground up with the intention of being serviced by end users. We utilize a fully modular system, and everything is labeled, documented, and can be plugged in and unplugged for troubleshooting if need be. Worst case, the entire control system can be removed and replaced with 12 screws, any time down the line. We have never had to do so in nearly 2 years.

- Mikini Mechatronics

I've been following this thread with much interest since I plan on buying a cnc mill in the next year or so. I run a 1-man pistolsmithing shop and want to be able to save time cutting dovetails for sights, checkering pistol frames and making small runs of parts such as sights. I"m not a production shop so the machine won't be running full time and the speed of the rapid traverse isn't really an issue for me. I currently do all my work on a manual Bridgeport clone so anything automated will be a big improvement. Work envelope size, accuracy and reliability are the most important issues for me.

My perspective on the Tormach vs. Mikini is that Tormach is a fairly well known product with a good record of customer support. For me to consider a different machine I would have to be comfortable that they are at least equal to Tormach in quality and support. There are other machines available for less money that I wouldn't consider because of their history of poor customer support or quality. Learning how to program and run a cnc machine is challenging enough for me so the easier it is to set up and run the machine, the better.

As a cnc novice my biggest questions are:

1. For a guy in my situation, what are the practical differences between linear ways and cast ways? As I said, overall speed isn't as important as accuracy and reliability of the machine.

2. How does the Mikini compare to the Tormach in support and ease of set-up?

[saabaero]

Dave @ Mikini Tech,

A couple of additional questions...

1. I'm curious how you achieve 200 ipm rapids and what do you mean when you state "dependent on controller/Interface/axis drive in use" what really is required to reach that speed?

2. What would be the cost of upgrading to (these would be the things that would make the Mikini more attractive to me):

a. USB interface with dedicated pulse generation

b. Servo Axis drive (Brushless High speed)

3. How come there are no manuals, support software or other documentation available on line?

4. What is the weight of the machine without the base?

5. Are there postprocessors available for the Mikini for Sprutcam and Mastercam?

[MIKINI MECH]

Thanks for your interest.

1) The machine ships with standard hybrid stepping drives capable of achieving 500 IPM. This is achieved through several design choices, including but not limited to the linear rails and drive systems.

There are other drive options such as servos. See our videos on youtube which feature standard drives that most machines ship with. To achieve high rates you will need a motion controller capable of generating pulse information this quickly. For example our integrated industrial control. We recommend 200 IPM rapids for safety reasons.

2A) The USB interface is $150.

2B) Give us a call to discuss servo drive options and your requirements. You can spend lots on servo drives that may not make sense. If they do make sense, we have some other options that will also make sense. All machines ship ready for servos at any time in the future.

3) We ship all of our machines with a comprehensive full color, USA printed, users manual in a durable binder, with all pages in page protectors for durability. Our manual includes 3D Cad assembly drawings and machine schematics. This level of technical information is featured in our manual for our customers understanding of their machines and support in the future. However, we do not want this information copied easily worldwide (it has already happened once overseas years ago).

4) Our machines are unitized (press and pin) G3000 castings that were designed and FEA analyzed (in the USA) as a single unit from the floor to the top of the collum. Structurally, the machine relies on every bit of material we used, and there is no differentiation between any of the individual castings. We spent quite a bit of time keeping the weight under 2500 lb typical LTL / liftgate shipping requirements, squeaking in at around 2200 lbs.

5) We offer full post processor support for all CAM programs capable of generating HAAS or Fanuc code.

Give us a call if you would like to discuss in greater detail

Regards

Mikini Mechatronics
831.254.2012










A couple of additional questions...

1. I'm curious how you achieve 200 ipm rapids and what do you mean when you state "dependent on controller/Interface/axis drive in use" what really is required to reach that speed?

2. What would be the cost of upgrading to (these would be the things that would make the Mikini more attractive to me):

a. USB interface with dedicated pulse generation

b. Servo Axis drive (Brushless High speed)

3. How come there are no manuals, support software or other documentation available on line?

4. What is the weight of the machine without the base?

5. Are there postprocessors available for the Mikini for Sprutcam and Mastercam?[/QUOTE]

[philbur]

The TTS are not capable of taking high cutting forces as they have a tendency to pull out of the collet. The Royal quick change is also limited to light/medium duty. It's a trade-off against convenience.

Quote from their web site:

Please note that the Royal Easychange R8 Quick-Change Tool System is designed for light/medium-duty applications where the ability to change tools quickly outweighs the need for extreme rigidity. We do not recommend using this system for heavy milling or high-production applications.

If you need to get brutal use a Weldon style solid R8 tool holder. I use the TTS within it’s limits and have never had a pull-out.

Of course if you are concerned buy the Tormach but not the TTS. The spindle has a standard R8 taper so it will take all R8 tooling without modification.

Phil

Can you elaborate on this? I plan on buying a small CNC mill in the future and would like to know about the problems you've had with the TTS tool holders. I've heard mostly good things about it here.

[MIKINI MECH]

Other R8 tooling to consider includes ER Collet chucks. The drawback is higher cost than many other solutions.

End mill holders have good power handling, but marginal to awful run-out (TIR). Fine tolerance wise if you compensate, but tough on tooling and can induce chatter.

As with everything, tooling choices really depend on how good is good enough.

- Mikini Mechatronics

The TTS are not capable of taking high cutting forces as they have a tendency to pull out of the collet. The Royal quick change is also limited to light/medium duty. It's a trade-off against convenience.

Quote from their web site:

Please note that the Royal Easychange R8 Quick-Change Tool System is designed for light/medium-duty applications where the ability to change tools quickly outweighs the need for extreme rigidity. We do not recommend using this system for heavy milling or high-production applications.

If you need to get brutal use a Weldon style solid R8 tool holder. I use the TTS within it’s limits and have never had a pull-out.

Of course if you are concerned buy the Tormach but not the TTS. The spindle has a standard R8 taper so it will take all R8 tooling without modification.

Phil

[keen]

Dave,

Please feel free to give us a call to discuss our machines.

1) Linear rails (also referred to as Linear bearings) offer substantially lower friction, no adjustment, and no wear. That being said they are only a portion of the design decision that allows us to achieve the metrics we achieve. (Generally) We achieve on average 2-3 times the overall precision of a common cast way bench top machine, and do so reliably without continual gib or tram adjustment.

2) We will let Tormach and/or users respond on their portion of setup. All of our machines ship fully assembled in a single crate and tested from our facility in California. We also offer turn key machines with integrated and tested industrial control systems with Mach3 fully setup and configured. Essentially the setup of our machines is limited to unpacking and connection to power (and control if not integrated).

3) We fully service and support our machines. We designed them from the ground up with the intention of being serviced by end users. We utilize a fully modular system, and everything is labeled, documented, and can be plugged in and unplugged for troubleshooting if need be. Worst case, the entire control system can be removed and replaced with 12 screws, any time down the line. We have never had to do so in nearly 2 years.

- Mikini Mechatronics

Linear rails are not not all good. They are lower friction - but that is not all good. slideways provide better control and vibration damping under heavy loads - Just look at Fryer USA CNC machines design - Box section slideways. No wear? no such thing - everything wears. especially in a dusty or contaminated or poor lub environment ,which is often the reality. And then, no adjustment is a drawback.

[philbur]

Yes TIR gets more important the smaller the cutter diameter. But the smaller the cutter diameter the less likely you will pull it out under load. So if you don't care about quick change then R8 collets up to 3/8" with tool holders over that is not a bad compromise. My choice is TTS for normal work with some R8 tool holders from 1/2" upward for when I need to get nasty.

Phil

Other R8 tooling to consider includes ER Collet chucks. The drawback is higher cost than many other solutions.

End mill holders have good power handling, but marginal to awful run-out (TIR). Fine tolerance wise if you compensate, but tough on tooling and can induce chatter.

As with everything, tooling choices really depend on how good is good enough.

- Mikini Mechatronics

[syil]

3) The Syil X7 has substantially different metrics and is in no way the "same" the Mikini 1610L. Please keep information all information factual. We respect all vendors in this market, and ask humbly for the same consideration.

some one can be delect my reply and post,but i can post my own machines.

we improve the casting of working table stands.see pic.

about same or different.people will see.

anyone need konw more details,email to me.

[deon]

Hi Syil

I totally agree with your finding about the X7 and the Mikini.
I have send you a private message and require more details.(group)

Thanks
Deon

[syil]

Hi Syil

I totally agree with your finding about the X7 and the Mikini.
I have send you a private message and require more details.(group)

Thanks
Deon

i have been reply you by emails with some pic and price.please check it.
thank you

[Don Clement]

Yes an air jet would be better for chip evacuation - that would be possible on a fully enclosed machine like the Mikuni - they could offer it?

I do have a Vortec 610 cold air gun for use on my manual lathe. For one thing it takes 15 SCFM @100psi to run and keeps my 5hp/80 gal dual stage compressor running constantly. But the real issue is that air is not as efficient as flood coolant for heat removal or chip evacuation. I only use the Vortec on the manual lathe because flood coolant is not practical on an unenclosed machine. https://secure.vortec.com/store_prod...ID=6&prodID=44