[dhellew2]

Wind power. The question was about why wind machines seldom seem to be running, questioning if maintenance might be the problem, all that oil and grease.

The reason is demand, of lack of it. The only way to keep the machines running full time is by installing massive banks of storage batteries so the energy can be used when people want it. The wind seldom blows exactly when the electricity is needed.

Since the cost of the machines and running them is so high, the cost of installing batteries would bankrupt the owners.

Were it not for the laws, economics would dictate and there would be a lot less wind farms. National average electric cost is somewhere around 10 cents per kWh. Wind power cost without batteries is around 15 cents per kWh.

Don't forget about all the environmental issues surrounding batteries!

Should you dig out the whole truth, look at both sides of every story you will usually find that the only thing green is the color of the money.

Dale

[One of Many]

Well, truth is in the eye of the beholder. Minimize the negatives and/or ignore the positives. The end user is not given an option regardless.

The real cost be Damned!

DC

[Dualkit]

Wind power. The question was about why wind machines seldom seem to be running, questioning if maintenance might be the problem, all that oil and grease.

The reason is demand, of lack of it. The only way to keep the machines running full time is by installing massive banks of storage batteries so the energy can be used when people want it. The wind seldom blows exactly when the electricity is needed.

Since the cost of the machines and running them is so high, the cost of installing batteries would bankrupt the owners.

Were it not for the laws, economics would dictate and there would be a lot less wind farms. National average electric cost is somewhere around 10 cents per kWh. Wind power cost without batteries is around 15 cents per kWh.

Don't forget about all the environmental issues surrounding batteries!

Should you dig out the whole truth, look at both sides of every story you will usually find that the only thing green is the color of the money.

Dale

I would buy 15 cent electricity all day I pay 40 cents in the summer from the thieves called SCE. The problem with wind power generation is the turbines need to turn at a fixed speed to produce 60hz power so they cannot run wide open and waste energy with their braking systems. Battery banks to store energy would be bigger than the wind mill farms. Solar power is probably the way to go, but since there are few plants that make the panels
and all but one of them are out of the country the plants are expensive to build. We need to get away from dependence on foreign oil and unrenewable
dirty power, that just makes sense all the way around.

[dhellew2]

Solar is no better than wind... same problems with demand and the need for batteries. To make matters worse solar costs twice as much as wind and only works when the sun shines. Don't forget to keep them clean because the dust drasticly reduces the output. Bet the salesman forgot to mention this!

In sunny Cal or Arizona solar water heaters are a fantastic idea.

Bottom line, wind and solar are not reliable nor cost effective sources for energy.

Another thought.. every time energy is converted from one form to another energy is lost. Converting wind and solar DC power to AC power is no exception. Not a efficient as some would have you believe.

Did you know that without cogen burning fossil fuel to generate electricity loses as much as 40% of the potential energy.

Dale

[Dualkit]

Solar technology is getting better, they have developed liquids that retain heat much longer. The new technology is using the panels to heat liquid, which creates thermal energy to turn turbines, the new liquids allow the plant to create power even at night.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Solar_One

[Geof]

....Did you know that without cogen burning fossil fuel to generate electricity loses as much as 40% of the potential energy.

Dale

You are far too optimistic thermal plants, steam, gas turbines, diesels do not get better than about 40% efficient; in other words 60% or more of the heat energy is lost.

[HuFlungDung]

I've heard, or supposed, that 'the grid' is the battery. However, I have no idea over what distance it is feasible to transmit electicity from the generator.

Society as it exists now, is inefficient at using power when it is available because we've never had to make that concession.

I wonder if electicity from transient sources would be better used for something like aluminum recovery, or something that could take more or less current on a variable basis...as the wind blows or the sun shines. This would or could free up other constant power generators on the grid to serve less flexible consumers.

[Geof]

Hu; Have you read anything about the "Smart Grid". What you are suggesting is what I have seen described in some magazine articles. The idea of the smart grid is that both supply and demand would be monitored in real time and consumers would have control systems that were under the control of a central monitoring station. This way when transient power declinded the ones who could accommodate being cut off get disconnected to keep the system balanced. The problem is that it is largely theoretical so far because it will require almost a complete rebuild of the electrical distribution system.

Wikipedia has some stuff about it but as is to be expected there is controversy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

[dhellew2]

There isn't much loss transmitting electricity long distances if you jack up the voltage. There is a DC line that goes from Washington State all the way to Los Angeles. Problem with DC is that you cannot tap into the line and divert the power elsewhere without a lot of expensive equipment. There are losses converting to DC then back to AC. These lines are typically 230 to 500 thousand volts.

The most efficient solar system I know of is a parabolic system is in the Mojave Desert in California. Heats liquid to run a generatior. Still only works when the sun shines.

Now matter how efficient the solar panels they will never be reliable, and I repeat, due to demand, which is not necessarily controllable by people, wind and solar without batteries is energy wasted. In the Southern states demand is typically for air conditioning. In the northern states demand is most often heating which occurs 24/7, more at night because it is colder, and no sun to be seen anywhere.

Here is the big, really big problem. The grid must be able to handle any load that is placed upon it or the whole system goes down. Putting all our dollars into unreliable energy sources also puts the entire grid system at risk. Wind and solar are not the sole answer as the government would like everyone to believe. Just because Gore thinks it is so doesn't make it so!

How about methane hydrate, said to be more plentiful than all the crude already used and that known to exist. It's too cheap. Money talks.

Lots of talk about electric cars... but nothing about where the power comes from to charge the batteries. As one thread said, 60 loss converting gas to electricity. My guess is that it is more efficient to burn gas in the car instead.

Dale

[dhellew2]

The smart grid may be a nice idea but I doubt will ever be a reality. No matter what the system is or becomes a reliable source of power must be available at all times, enough to cover the unexpected. All over the US there are already systems that help reduce peak demand. In the midwest some utiliites furnish floor heat wire to their customers because the mass stores heat allowing the utility to turn off the heat during peak loads.

Many large businesses recieve discounts because they have propane standby system that allow the power to be turned off during peak, including AEC in California.

It is virtually impossible to determine when loads will increase or decrease. The only solution is to make certain enough generation capacity is online to cover any sudden demand or BLACKOUT! Forget wind and solar unless you put in the batteries.

Dale

[martinw]

[QUOTE=dhellew2;635745

Lots of talk about electric cars... but nothing about where the power comes from to charge the batteries. As one thread said, 60 loss converting gas to electricity. My guess is that it is more efficient to burn gas in the car instead.

Dale[/QUOTE]

Dear Dale,

I think that somebody on CNCZone made the wise observation that buying an electric car and feeling good about it was not a whole lot different than teaching your dog to crap on the neighbours lawn, rather than your own.

Best wishes,

Martin

[fizzissist]

A couple of years ago I went from L.A. to Palm Springs in July or August (not by choice, and I'm still trying to forget the episode).

There's a veritable plethora of windmills down there, I mean, lots and lots of them. Big ones. In the valleys, on the hills. They look like mutant palm trees.

It was hot....really, really, hot. Record temps, 118deg temps. Everybody had the AC running, from San Diego to L.A., and beyond. But knowing that the demand was unusually high, I was puzzled to see about 20% of the windmills (by casual count) sitting idle. Not moving. Not being serviced. Just sitting there, motionless. And it was windy, as usual.

I guess the utilities don't make money unless they sell you something that they have to buy. Maybe that's the down side of free wind.

........meanwhile back at the Picken's farm...
Jul 08, 2009
Pickens calls off massive wind farm in Texas

http://www.icecap.us/

[martinw]

I've heard, or supposed, that 'the grid' is the battery. However, I have no idea over what distance it is feasible to transmit electicity from the generator.

.

Dear HuFlungDung,

Transmission tends to be at 100kV to 500kV in the UK, and grid losses are quite small, about 1.6%. The UK grid was developed in the 1950s and 1960s when the major coal powered stations where right next door to the coal mines, typically in the north of England. However the total losses from power stations to the end user are far higher, around 7.4% .( The US figure is almost identical) This is because the losses comprise of transmission and "distribution". When you want to convert a few hundred thousand volts down to 230v (or 110v),you need a series of fairly chunky transformers, and you lose a lot of energy as heat.

Best wishes,

Martin

[Geof]

Something more on the 'Smart Grid'.

http://earth2tech.com/2009/01/26/faq-smart-grid/

[Switcher]

........meanwhile back at the Picken's farm...
Jul 08, 2009
Pickens calls off massive wind farm in Texas

Not dead, just spreading things out across the midwest.


.

[flash319]

Just to throw this out there........
Almost all the retorts about wind and solar say that they are "not reliable" and "doesn't deal with peak demand". Why do you think that is? I think 2 reasons:

Number one: Demand is way to high because the price is way to low. Much like oil. People think it is their RIGHT to use as much power as they want because they can pay for it. When you tell people to save energy you get most of them griping and complaining about their rights and how you are taking there freedom away bla bla bla. If you have to monitor and control the power that you make and the power that you use then your mind set would change. Progress is not supplying more power it is getting by with less. The Big Three did not get this.......

Number 2: The electrical system is set up as mostly one big pipeline with a few generation stations servicing it. If something happends in one area then you can shut the whole thing down (remember the big black out in upper Newyork and Canada). You have too much demand on too small of a system.

I think that a de-centeralized system would fix both of these problems as well as save energy. Overseas they have been heading in this direction for quite some time and I think it will pay off in the long run. Much like the internet, if part of the system goes down then power routes around the problem. If households supply power as well as use it then when demand goes up in one area the demand may be down in the other thus no "peak" is seen.

We are not there yet with the technology but it is comming. Look at the Nanosolar company. Using a printing press to make solar pannels for next to nothing with better efficiency then the current ones.

We in north america use WAY to much power and that is the problem not the supply issue. North American depends on oil from other countries because is uses to much, not because we don't have enough. The whole system is wrong and I think that wind and solar will be the answer but no one wants to give it a chance.

[One of Many]

The realities of the true cost of wind or solar are still subsidized. If Solar is at best 40% efficient and wind only 20% efficient, it will take nearly 3-10x as much to replace fossil fuel sources. The idea to artificially inflate the cost of one to make the other look more palitable is no better that the anti-trust suits Microsoft played to knock out competition. Why is it different when the government does it with energy resources and your blessing?

I will site this from 2004 that shows where the power grid owners failed to maintain the infrastructer while maintaining plenty of profit. Even when wind comes on line. peak energy will blow the carriers regardless.

In the Red, not Green

Here is another from 2008 where it pays to farm the subsidies and a possible clue as to why certain areas have better returns than others.

How to make 25% return and zero profit

Here is the result of the high cost over-runs. It hardly pays just to keep them running when the tax benefits don't know the difference.

60% produce nothing

I see this as there is very little with what they are efficient at besides absorbing more of our taxes we are forced to pay to support these "investments" while the government complains about being broke.

Throwing more hard earned tax dollars into this money pit is more about breaking the economy rather than fixing it.

The reason it is forced on us via government dictates is simple. If it were marketed at its real cost I wouldn't buy it and neither would anyone else. That is a monopoly if there ever was one. Weren't we warned about this, oh say 230 some odd years ago?

DC

[martinw]

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...-wind-turbines

[skippy]

"The problem with wind power generation is the turbines need to turn at a fixed speed to produce 60hz power so they cannot run wide open and waste energy with their braking systems."
The frequency requirements are handled by having "asynchronous" generators which produce the required hz regardless of little, lots or gusty wind.
Not that I'm a fan of any of this stuff as it seems we've all been duped. Just more fancy schemes to line the pockets of a few corporations and paid for by the masses.

[flash319]

[QUOTE=One of Many;644020]The realities of the true cost of wind or solar are still subsidized. If Solar is at best 40% efficient and wind only 20% efficient, it will take nearly 3-10x as much to replace fossil fuel sources. The idea to artificially inflate the cost of one to make the other look more palitable is no better that the anti-trust suits Microsoft played to knock out competition. Why is it different when the government does it with energy resources and your blessing?


The energy that comes from the sun and wind is free so how efficient it is is subjective. Unlike gas and oil where we know it will run out so when you "waste it" you are really wasting it.

I am not suggesting to "artificially inflating" oil but to pay the true price. How much has all the gulf wars cost the US tax payer? How about the troops lives? How about the CO2 released from coal and oil generation? I worry about my kids and what is being left for them. All because of greed and some unrealistic standard of living. Man has gone down the wrong path and we can't keep patching it up.

As for artificially inflating oil:
The only reason energy is as cheap as it is is just the opposite. It is artificially deflated to push the economy and to make a "few" people lots of money.

I think that people will look back at this time period and be totally dumbfounded by the decisions that are being made. If we make it out of this mess......