[ttba]

Anyone seen or had first hand experience with the new Artisan series cnc from LegacyWoodworking?

[ttba]

Well I guess I'll be the first to review... Ordered a 5-axis 4811x26 (48x26 milling bed and up to 11" round stock on A-axis) yesterday and should have it in about 1 month.

[dealguy11]

Any thoughts/review on this machine yet? My son and I are going out to Utah in October to look at it, and it would be helpful to get some input before we go. We're thinking of getting the 6-foot version for large turnings and flat carving work.

Thanks

[ttba]

I have not received it yet but have gone through a day of training at the factory in Utah. They do appear to be well constructed and work as advertised. Although we did not have a chance to process any flat stock while there. They are rolling out a new website shortly which has a few better pictures of it. The beta version is at www.legacycncwoodworking.com

[dealguy11]

Thanks very much for the update. Look forward to your review.

[ttba]

My unit arrived 5 days ago and here is some initial feedback. I originally wrote this as a response to a direct inquiry so there may be some outside the box info but I think it is pretty self-explanatory:

1. You will need a forklift to get it off of the truck. My unit showed up inside an enclosed cargo semi trailer with a lift gate and pallet jack. The problem is Legacy makes their own shipping pallets by sandwiching 2x4's between 2 sheets of plywood. So no holes in the bottom for a pallet jack's wheels.

2. The unit was bolted to the top piece of plywood and not otherwise supported. Not a problem since the unit is built like a tank but the bolts in all 4 legs were loose, some were backed 1/2 way out and 2 fell out altogether. The bolts did have lock washers so I'm not sure if they worked loose or just weren't adequately tightened. I did let Legacy know.

3. The shipping weight for the 26x48 is 802 lbs. Not much of that is packaging... Packaging consists of roughly (8) 2x4's and (2) sheets of 3/4" plywood.

4. The unit was fully assembled and I only had to remove some wire ties that were installed during shipping and plug the wiring into the control panel. They were well labeled and easy to figure out.

5. Out of the box the PC wouldn't turn on. I opened the control box and dismounted the motherboard frame so I could see the motherboard and the on/off wire had pulled off of the motherboard during shipping. Simple push pin connector so the weight of the wire is enough to easily do it. I suggested to Legacy that they fasten the wire somewhere near the motherboard to prevent it in the future.

6. The software was all installed and ready to go (OM5/Mach3 and Conversational CAM 3.1). The PC is a dual processor AMD with 1GB RAM running Windows XP

7. No documentation, instructions or backup media is provided with the unit. No drives (other than the Hard drive). There are 4 USB ports accessable from the outside of the control box. You provide your own mouse, keyboard, and monitor.

8. The only accessories that come with it are (a) 4 of the drive hubs that mount on the end stock you are going to turn. (b) 8 toe mounts - 4 short and 4 long that work with the aluminum rail system. (c) a couple of t-handle allen wrenches. The router that comes with it is a Porter Cable 3.25HP model 7518.

9. The calibration was very close but the automatic A-Axis reference was off a bit on the X-Axis. It is calculated based on the overall machine limit end switches (which are mounted with a single bolt and can easily be turned - thereby throwing off your calibration). They are proximity switches which is good but again they twist easily.

10. Here's the worst one... There was a machining defect on the teeth on the y-axis rack & pinion rack where the teeth weren't machined deep enough. The result is 0.030" backlash in the y-axis. I found this last night and called them this morning. They indicated they had found the issue 2 weeks ago and already have a fix in hand that they would ship out today. In a nut shell it is a new rack that simply mounts of the top of the old one. The old one was machined into the lip of the unit. Overall a simple fix that I'm fine with doing and will have no negative impact.

11. The Conversational CAM is easy to use but you do have to manually assemble the code if you want to perform more than 1 operation at a time. You also have to manually copy/paste into notepad each time and save before you can open it in Mach3. Probably nothing new to you here if you have been seeing their videos on line. Not too big a deal but not real efficient. The bottom line is it is simply a spreadsheet that is calculating directly in the cells and really no other automation.

12. Many of the project demos online that use Conversational CAM also required some manual coding to get them to the level of what they are producing.

13. Factory training - the bad. It was worth the trip but it wasn't well structured and probably could have used a 2nd day. In a nut shell the sales guys don't work together on scheduling and at the time they only had 1 Artisan 48x96 to train on/use. It is also the same unit they rent out as "shop time" for a fee and at the time a local company was using it to turn some work. So the first 2-3 hours were consumed by the paying customer and there were 5 other people were there for a demo. So the training ended up being a demo with perhaps less than an hour of hands on making chips.

14. Factory training - the good. Definitely some good info on relevant g-codes, feed rates, etc. Also a good intro to Vectric and ArtCAM software. Both were programed by the same folks so they look and feel very similar. Vectric Aspire = $2K vs ArtCAM = $10K. ArtCAM does have a few more features but the biggie is being able to carve on a round. The grapes carved on a round for instance were done with ArtCAM. Vectric currently cannot do this.

15. As for accessories good luck. I'm not even sure their sales people can recall them from the top of thier head are and they don't have brochures. That being said I did see one at the factory with a wheel kit. They also make both horizontal and vertical vises which are worth getting. As for the wheels you can simply buy some double locking ones from McMaster or other place and bolt them on much (I'm sure) cheaper. fyi - the a-axis drive system is morse taper but also has has a 1" threaded connection. They also have delrin bushings that fit over the bull nose center which could be very useful for some production runs that reuse any type of fixture.

16. I did purchase the professional bit set from Magnate. Legacy doesn't sell them direct... The down side there are a couple of bits that are useless for CNC. Had I looked a bit closer I would have created my own set based on that set. If you download the entire Magnate catelog you will find they discount based on dollar amount so you can get the savings even without ordering them as a kit. Magnate is quick and usually ships same day. The profile bits you buy will completely be dicated by what types of architectural turnings you do.


As for all the issues and notes above I don't see them as anything unusual for a product line this new (the end of Q1 this year) and I don't have any negative things to say about it. It is well built and designed to do some work.

The sales folks are easy to deal with but follow through isn't great. There wasn't any pressure or anything as they are very easy going (probably too easy going for their own good). They will work with you on the price.

[dealguy11]

This will be very helpful to us. I very much appreciate your taking the time to let us know about your experience.

[cabnet636]

i will say this artcam has a component that will allow for "rotary axis", it is not 4 axis work as in 4 axis simultantious movement and full round visual and toolpathing, basically it is a converter

on to vectric, the is a decent amount of interest in this and it has been well discussed oon vectrics forum, rich goldener has recently added this capacity to his wizards for mach and has also made it available for us who use wincnc as well!!

http://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6417

http://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6449

lets make some chips

jim

[ttba]

Thanks Jim. Very interesting reads you provided with a few ways to get the flat to round done. I was thinking about writing my own processor to do this but obviously no need...

When I was at the Legacy factory training one of the Legacy guys giving the sofware demos indicated he was the one that wrote the postprocessor that converts to round for ArtCAM. He also said he reached out to Vectric to see if they would be willing to work with them to do the same but said he hadn't heard back yet.

I guess time will tell but I am so happy to see it has already been solved in other ways. Can't wait to get off from the day job so I can let the chips fly.

Cheers,
Ted

[cabnet636]

i read both artcams and vectrics forums i was offered a seat of ac basically free, but have yet to see any thing aspire cannot do. dollar for dollar, support to support aspire is the way to go

a former tech rep from art cam reportedly said that 80% of the people who purchase artcam only use 20% of the program so at its price it is overbuilt and over priced. as someone who purchased cabinetry design software in the 90's at prices that would buy new pickup trucks i purchased vectric, it has been one of the best decisions i have made!

jim

[ttba]

So after working my way through some more learning curve and really getting to know Mach3 and my Artisan machine... I highly recommend you view the videos on Artsoft's website if you are new to Mach3. Also note that Legacy's videos are great at showing off capabilities but do little on the nuts and bolts of how to use the machine. There are no other training materials from Legacy other than factory training - but my initial review gave the scoop on that. Took quite a bit of trial and error to figure everything out. As with most of my new tools - figure it out first then dial everything in. Here goes dialing in:

I started by leveling the frame of the machine and then locking it in position before anything else. Then set up the bed for level. Had to install a couple of shims to take out 0.060" of tilt in the y-axis. This one was a bit painful because it is easy to end up with twist based on the linear actuation mount for the B-Axis (more on this later). Had about the same in the x-axis but since it pivots on the b-axis not too hard to do. I found the best solution all around for the B-Axis was to adjust the end switch such that after performing machine home it ended up pefectly level. I tried changing settings in Mach3 but it isn't worth it - adjust the end switch.

Overall I'm consistently within 0.002"-0.003" on turning a-axis work. Flat work is another story if you want to run anything above turtle speed. Here's the rub. The B-Axis actuation system in a word - sucks. It is innovative and cool but at the end of the day it is too narrow and not rigid enough to keep the bed from twisting at a different frequency than that of the rest of the machine.

What I have found that works well here is to install a couple of wedge shaped shims between the c-channels that slide up and down. I'm thinking I'll order a sheet of delrin (or similar) and simply permanently install it there rather than messing with the shims. The b-axis doesn't move very fast and only significantly moves when you want to taper - so I think it would be just fine.

Router mounting clamps = #@$%@#$! Another sure miss. Already broke 2 of them. Long story short there isn't enough meat on them where they hook into the slots. Trust me on this one - weld them on or find something else.

SmartTool, soft limits, and general out of the box configuration IMHO could be much better. First off this thing flys WOT at 1500 ipm. Plan on taking your finger off of the jog button about 1/2 way down the bed if you don't want to slam into the other end. Of course you can turn the jog speed down (50% works well) and turn on Soft Limits in Mach3 which will help prevent this.

Ok so you figured that out and are in love with soft limits (why would you ever turn it off...). Now try turning a round. I ended up with my bit sitting on the smart tool with the router turned on (this is also where I found that the smart tool isn't mounted level - so I have a beautiful 1.25" 1/2 circle machined in the top of mine).

Long story short. The smart tool was mounted and programmed outside of the x-axis limit switch. The z-axis soft limit was also set from factory 1/4" above the bed. The a-axis center is below the top of the bed. So with soft limits on the thing would touch off of the SmartTool but then find itself outside of the limits and would be stuck there (although it does start the router). Arghh....

So I moved the SmartTool down the x-axis 1/4" so it was inside the end switch and then updated the custom Mach3 macros to the new position (there is also one in the SmartTool button on the screen to update). I also adjusted the z-axis soft limit. Now it works in Soft Limits on!

Additionally the y-axis physical setup in Mach3 was set at 25.75". It can easily be adjusted (end switch on the zero end and change the setup in Mach3) to get 27" out of the y-axis with about 3/8" of travel still left at either end. Again you have to update the macros and screen buttons to take into account the new location of the a-axis and the SmartTool. Pretty happy to get another 1.25" for free...

I guess overall some more things to work out on a new product. At any rate now getting some good results.

Cheers.

[dealguy11]

Thanks again for sharing your continued experiences with the Artisan machine. We will be discussing this with Legacy when we visit them next week. I would expect some of the adjustments you made when setting up the machine, but am concerned about your comments around steadying up the "B" axis and leveling the bed...this seems like something that could turn into a longer-term problem. The router mounts are also something we will bring up. The training and support issues are also a bit worrying.

All-in-all, would you still purchase the Artisan or get a more "standard" machine like a Shopbot or CamMaster and add a 4th axis? The Artisan's cost is lower after the modifications to the other machines are considered, but not a ton. We're really not interested in building our own - we want to start cutting chips, not debugging electronics.

The thing that interests us with the Artisan is the ability to do both 4th axis and flat work on the machine--we're planning to use the 4th axis a lot. I wouldn't mind a wider bed, too, but don't have the $$'s for a larger machine...good to see there is a way to get a little more width.

Thanks,
Steve

[ttba]

I think leveling the bed is one of those givens on any machine (hopefully I won't get thrashed on that comment) but you never know how level everything was when they assembled it or how much bouncing around it got in shipping. If you end up putting it on wheels (like I did) you may have to deal with more of this over time.

As for steadying up the b-axis linear actuation it is a problem. To be fair I sent the note to legacy with this info today. So I wouldn't expect them to have any solutions by next week (unless others have been directly giving them the same feedback).

I would still buy it again because it can do what I need for the price. So far there are some issues but none that I haven't been able to overcome relatively easily.

The best advice at this point is to run the heck out it while you are in Provo next week. Mount flat stock on the actuated end of the bed and let her rip...

Also note that the 72" version also has steel stiffeners under the bed rails that the 48" version does not. A little more mass so it may have slightly different characteristics.

[cabnet636]

vectric announced they will add rotary axis to aspire and vcarve!!!

check the forum on the hardware section, we were using a rotary today!!



jim

[ttba]

All issues have been taken care of.

[dealguy11]

I see Legacy took down the thread you started on their forum. Hope that means you got their attention. It's disappointing to hear about your experiences. Also, it seems like they are a little behind the 8-ball in getting their new website up and running...2 missed dates so far, and looks like they've finally decided to take the launch date off the site altogether...since the forum is now somewhat active, I guess it's "launched". Either they're really busy, or something else is going on. I visited the factory about 1.5 weeks ago and it looked pretty busy - the entire assembly area was filled with Artisans, so maybe they're just swamped. That's no excuse for not following up on promises, though.

My machine is supposed to be done in 3 weeks or so. I'm crossing my fingers. May be contacting you to get some setup advice. Thanks for sharing,

Steve

[ger21]

All issues have been taken care of.

I think people would have preferred that you left the original post, though.

[ttba]

Maybe so but the owner and I worked out a solution and an improvement plan. So I'll give them the benefit. We'll see if it works...

[cabnet636]

i agree with the moderator, a problem and a solution for all to see would be far better for the manufacturer as well.

jim

[dealguy11]

Tracy posted a message this afternoon that their web site is, in fact, officially launched. The forum has been operational for several weeks, so no issues with that, really.

Tracy's post also says they are working on posting more CNC tutorials, along with sample g-code. I personally find their tutorials and demonstrations to be very helpful, so look forward to that. - Steve