[AccuFast2D]

I would like to purchase good used hypertherm torch tips, part # 220007 60amp extended nozzle. These are used on the Powermax 1000. If you have a cnc plasma cutter and use this type of tip I would consider purchasing your old tips. Please email me direct at [email protected] or post on this forum. Thanks. Todd.

[DSL PWR]

Why would you want to buy used consumables?

[AccuFast2D]

I have an idea to rehab old tips. I need to have other similar parts to try out. Everyone has different levels of use and need to see if my idea is feasable.

[Alan Bradford]

Good Luck.
If your labor time is free and you dont mind reduced cut quality, you may succede.
The machining on the nozzle hole size, roundness of the hole, and straightness of the walls is 4 decemal places.
You will have to sell rebuilt nozzles fopr 2-3 times the price of new ones to break even.
It isnt as easy as it looks. The type of copper used is hard (difficult) to machine.
You would have a better chance of making a fortune by inventing Warp Drive or cheap Hydrogen!

Good Luck

[AccuFast2D]

I don't know what kind of plasma tips you use but the copper isn't hard at all. I have cut hundreds of these and the cut quality reamains good enough to compensate for paying $5 or $6 to put another one in. I can use one tip more than once. As a small business I have no need to cut in the 4 decimal places. If I needed that close tolerance I wouldn't use normal plasma, I would look at HD plasma or other type of cutting altogether.
If I can take off .01 to .015 off the tip to clean up the end of the damaged hole and get a second life out of a tip it was worth it. Since I have done this for 3 years I would say I have better results from reconditioned tips than I do original tips. The results are that I get more production out of the referb tips.
I never planned on reselling any tips. I figure there are people out there with a similar machine and I would provde them with money that would be more than they would get more than scrap price for their copper. Besides if I can referb more than 3 per minute for one hour that makes it a good deal for me.
You keep tossing out your consumables and wondering how you can make things more profitable for your company.



If your labor time is free and you dont mind reduced cut quality, you may succede.
The machining on the nozzle hole size, roundness of the hole, and straightness of the walls is 4 decemal places.
You will have to sell rebuilt nozzles fopr 2-3 times the price of new ones to break even.
It isnt as easy as it looks. The type of copper used is hard (difficult) to machine.
You would have a better chance of making a fortune by inventing Warp Drive or cheap Hydrogen!

[Normsthename]

What tool do you use to reclaim the electrode?
I have had very mixed results reclaiming electrodes.
Some have been as good as new, and others have refused to fire.
I got a machine tool guy to clean up some used electrodes, he did a great job and the profile was just the same as a new electrode but they refused to fire
I also got the guy to accurately measure the hole diameter on a new finecut tip and a tip that had done a lot of work with a shadow graph machine.
There was virtually no difference, in fact the new one was a fraction larger!

Andy

[AccuFast2D]

Hopefully your electrodes have the Hafnium pellet in the end. If you shave too much off the end of the electrode the spring that retains the electrode against the inside of the tip will not make contact. I shave just the minimum to get the copper removed only. I usually change them out when there is first a misfire issue and have even put some in the drill and used a belt sander to clean a little copper off. Hypertherm recommends use until 1/32" of the Hafnium is gone. I usually clean up my tips up with a custom made collet in a lathe. I gently chuck up on the the electrode and turn it down on the lathe.
Your misfire may be caused by the length of electrode and the spring being weak. Maybe you should try to see if you can replace your spring or pull it just a little to get some more length back.

[jimcolt]

If you are using a new electrode and nozzle.....and after use you are refacing them and making them usable again....then that tells me you are not using them to the end of their usable life the first time around!

When the electrode is fully consumed (there are no "tips" on a Hypertherm plasma....nozzle and electrode are the parts) it will have .030" to .040" pit depth on the hafnium emmitter (insert).....if the front of the electrode is faced off to this depth....then the electrode is now too short to make adequate contact with the inner chamber of the nozzle....which will usually result in misfiring, but probably more important...will result in a higher arc voltage if it does fire and transfer to the plate....as the electrode is shorter, making the arc longer. Higher voltage (.040" longer arc will increase the arc voltage by approximately 10 volts)...increases the load on the power supply, shortening the duty cycle, as well as causes arc voltage based height control systems to move the torch closer to the plate....likely causing plate collisions as well as poor cut edge angularity.

When a nozzle orifice is reconditioned...the only choice would be to drill a larger hole (unless somehow the hole is being re-welded with copper, then redrilled to the proper size)....a larger hole will decrease enrgy density of the plasma arc....which will reduce cut speeds and affect cut edge angularity.

My guess is that the time spent reworking the consumables likely is more expensive than figuring out how to get the best life out of new consumables through clean air and proper pierce and cutting techniques.

Jim Colt

[WSS]

In the attached photos I show the size of cut and what the torch parts looked like after they "mis-fired"(?). This was the original set on our PM1650 w/T100m torch. It made over 100 pierces on 3/4" AR plate and over 1800 inches of cut. Then I switched to the 1.25" cuts (no pierce, edge start) and did about 200 inches of cut before it gave out. I think it was the size of the cut that got it not the amount of cut time.

Is this typical? Did I squeeze all the life out of the parts?

Compared to oxy, I am happy with what I was able to do in both cut quality and maintenance. I have not done enough to make a cost comparison to oxy. Way to many variables at the moment. For instance I would not put aftermarket parts on a HP, but our Victor gear runs great (some manufacturers) on aftermarket. And sometimes you can find good deals on OE Victors consumables. Have not found any deals with HT parts yet.

WSS

[Normsthename]

Following advice on this forum I recently changed the Swirl Ring for a different part number
My machine uses a machine torch and the Hypertherm manual recommends a 220327 swirl ring with finecut consumables.
I used it like this for over a year before changing to a 120925 swirl ring as recommended.
The difference in cut quality and consumable life is amazing!
The cut quality was OK before but I used to have to clean parts up afterwards.
With the different swirl ring fitted the cut quality is now good enough so I don't have to clean up the parts!
The consumable life has also improved by at least 3 times!
The only downside of using the 120925 swirl ring is that it uses about 3 times as much compressed air, my 200 litre 5.5hp three phase compressor is definitely earning its keep!

Andy

[AccuFast2D]

If the electrode is .03" shorter and the spring that maintains the electrode/nozzle contact still places the hafnium in the same start location. The .03" must be a huge difference in the performance in the spring. It is my understanding that the compressed air flow moves the electrode back when the ignition takes place and is maintained throughout the cut. If the distance from part to electrode is maintained why would it need more power?
I believe that the electrode never touches the "nozzle" once the flow is established.

If you are using a new electrode and nozzle.....and after use you are refacing them and making them usable again....then that tells me you are not using them to the end of their usable life the first time around!

When the electrode is fully consumed (there are no "tips" on a Hypertherm plasma....nozzle and electrode are the parts) it will have .030" to .040" pit depth on the hafnium emmitter (insert).....if the front of the electrode is faced off to this depth....then the electrode is now too short to make adequate contact with the inner chamber of the nozzle....which will usually result in misfiring, but probably more important...will result in a higher arc voltage if it does fire and transfer to the plate....as the electrode is shorter, making the arc longer. Higher voltage (.040" longer arc will increase the arc voltage by approximately 10 volts)...increases the load on the power supply, shortening the duty cycle, as well as causes arc voltage based height control systems to move the torch closer to the plate....likely causing plate collisions as well as poor cut edge angularity.

When a nozzle orifice is reconditioned...the only choice would be to drill a larger hole (unless somehow the hole is being re-welded with copper, then redrilled to the proper size)....a larger hole will decrease enrgy density of the plasma arc....which will reduce cut speeds and affect cut edge angularity.

My guess is that the time spent reworking the consumables likely is more expensive than figuring out how to get the best life out of new consumables through clean air and proper pierce and cutting techniques.

Jim Colt

[AccuFast2D]

Normsthename, what consumables do you use other than finecut? Do you use the shielded or unshielded? Are you using a machine to cut or hand?

[jimcolt]

Starting is probably not the issue after an electrode has been shortened by .030"...as the spring loaded starting mechanism likely still can push the electrode into contact with the inner nozzle bore. The issue I would be more concerned with is the distance from the end of the electrode to the inner bore of the nozzle after the cut is established....the dimensions insde the torch are critical and .030" is a big distance. This increased distance will increase the arc voltage (an increase of .030" in arc length will increase arc voltage 12 to 15 volts)......so if the torch is operated at a fixed height from the plate (as measured from the shield or nozzle)...the the voltage will be 12 to 15 volts higher.

Plasma systems operate at constant current....so if you were running at 60 Amps at 120 arc volts with a new electrode...then the power disipated at the arc would be 60 x 120 or 7200 watts. With the electrode that has been shaved by .030", then the voltage would likely be 12 volts higher....so the power disipated at the arc would be 60 x 132 or 7920 watts. This does put a larger heat load on the power supply as well as on the torch.

Of bigger concern would be if you were using an arc voltage based height control.....if the height control was set to maintain 120 volts in order to keep the torch to work distance at .062" from the plate......and you had an electrode that was .030" shorter....then the height control would attempt to maintain 120 volts by moving the torch .030" closer to the plate. I would expect plate collisions in this case.

The point is in regards to remanufacturing consumbles....if you are not able to maintain the original design and dimensions...then expect some other issues to occur...such as higher heat loads (reduced duty cycle or torch body overheating) or incorrect torch to work distance (which affects cut edge angularity and dross formation.

Jim

If the electrode is .03" shorter and the spring that maintains the electrode/nozzle contact still places the hafnium in the same start location. The .03" must be a huge difference in the performance in the spring. It is my understanding that the compressed air flow moves the electrode back when the ignition takes place and is maintained throughout the cut. If the distance from part to electrode is maintained why would it need more power?
I believe that the electrode never touches the "nozzle" once the flow is established.

[Normsthename]

Normsthename, what consumables do you use other than finecut? Do you use the shielded or unshielded? Are you using a machine to cut or hand?

I mainly use finecut to cut 1.5mm (16swg) Stainless steel.
I do sometimes cut thicker materials and I use 40a and 60a tips shielded and my CNC Plasma has a machine torch fitted.

While I was searching the Hypertherm site I found that they have now bought out an update to the Powermax 1000 manual

http://www.hypertherm.com/library/files/Manuals/Operator%20Manual%20(OM)/Updates%20to%20manuals/PMX1000_Change1.pdf

This now lists the correct swirl ring for use with Finecut consumables. :banana:

Andy

[AccuFast2D]

Jim I am thinking we are not on the same page.

Unless we can prove the the decreased length of the electrode is somehow increasing the distance from the orifice because of the reduced spring pressure I still can't see your point. Let's say that I take off .03" off the nozzle tip (exit) and .03" off the electrode. The nozzle reduction would facilitate the electrode to work distance to be decreased from the original and therefore reduce the power required to make the same cut.

If the electrode is shortened from the cut side by .03" the work to electrode distance is still the same.

[AccuFast2D]

Thanks Norm. That is good NEW information. I see they finally included the oring part number also.

[jimcolt]

The spring pressure has nothing to do with electrode to nozzle...and electrode to work distance. Once air pressure arrives at the torch..the electrode retracts fully and seats....so if the front of the electrode has been faced off....that is how much longer the arc will be. The spring compensates for the faced off amount during the starting process...but during steady state cutting it has nothing to do with this distance! Whatever is faced off the electrode will increase the distance between electrode and nozzle during steady state cutting...this add arc voltage to the formula that detrmines kW output of the plasma power supply!

I doubt that there will be noticeable effect for hand plasma cutting....but I guarantee that cut edge angularity and dross formation will be effected in mechanized cutting where precise torch to work distance is necessary for best cut quality.

It is not the distance from the orifice (nozzle) that detrmines arc voltage...it is the distance from the emitter (electrode).

Jim

[AccuFast2D]

Again I disagree with the assessment. Although I have a hand held unit I don't see where there could be a difference in the basic function. If there is pressure from the incomming gas that would keep the electrode forced forward durning the flow why would it push the electrode back any further than the pressure on the spring required to allow the flow out the orifice. It is an almost perfect valve. There is no need to push the electrode further than to allow the gas to exit just elevating the electrode away from the nozzle funnel with the minimum distance required. I.e. similar distance from hafnium to the nozzle funnel. Therefore same work to electrode distance.

I agree that the cut quality may be changed but on 16 gage, 11 or 10 gage or even up to 1/4" I could cut with my new Hypertherm nozzle and my referb nozzles and put them side by side and I would bet that we couldn't tell the difference.

The spring pressure has nothing to do with electrode to nozzle...and electrode to work distance. Once air pressure arrives at the torch..the electrode retracts fully and seats....so if the front of the electrode has been faced off....that is how much longer the arc will be. The spring compensates for the faced off amount during the starting process...but during steady state cutting it has nothing to do with this distance! Whatever is faced off the electrode will increase the distance between electrode and nozzle during steady state cutting...this add arc voltage to the formula that detrmines kW output of the plasma power supply!

I doubt that there will be noticeable effect for hand plasma cutting....but I guarantee that cut edge angularity and dross formation will be effected in mechanized cutting where precise torch to work distance is necessary for best cut quality.

It is not the distance from the orifice (nozzle) that detrmines arc voltage...it is the distance from the emitter (electrode).

Jim

[WSS]

A quick way to tell if it is stressing the Power Supply is to run it without the cover (if it is safe) and infrared temp the inverter and capacitors under the same load with both referbed and new tips.

[jimcolt]

You clearly do not understand the starting mechanism...and the position of the electrode during steady state (flow) conditions. As I stated...the electrode pushes back (up, away from the nozzle) during flow...not forward. There is an absolute need for the electrode to push all the way back and seat...this is to ensure that the distance between the emitter end of the electrode and the inside bore of the nozzle is held to the critical dimensions it was designed to. If you shortened the front (emitter end) of the electrode...you have changed this dimension.

I'm quite sure that what you are doing will work..the torch will fire and the torch will cut! I'm 100% sure that it will not cut to the specifications (ISO9013 cut quality specifications) that the torch was designed to cut at....and I am 100% sure that the arc voltage will be affected at a given torch to work distance.....meaning....to maintain the recomended torch to work physical distance..the arc voltage (arc length as measured from the electrode emitter to the plate) will be higher.

I see no need to argue this subject....hypertherm has over 85 engineers involved with the design and manufacture of these torches....we take huge measures to ensure that the dimensions that control the plasma arc are held to very tight tolerances...however I understand your desire to experiment and the need to get a little more life out of your consumables.

Best regards, Jim Colt