[2_many_hobbies]

I have had several attempts to own a mill without success due to them being to sloppy for my needs and my materials of choice changing from 6061 to Steels. I originally had a x1 but returned it for an x2 which I returned not much later as it was defective and haven't bought one since.

I have visited and made a few friends in the shurline to Tormach 1100 size machines and have figured out a more accurate need for my shop. I only have a single car garage and their is not enough room for a Tormach size machine no matter how I squeeze it but I don't have that much money anyways so no bother.

I have been seriously looking at the x3 and the cnc kit from CNC Fusion as my total budget for the machine, conversion and motors is $2500 (I have the controllers already) and I think I could make a very accurate and rigid x3 for that price except I have read alot of external reviews and alot of people complain about once you take the cowl off the column its quite piddily and even with rebar and concrete it gets flimsy mowing through steel.

My solutions are to reinforce the crap out of the column and possibly even use a piece of steel to cross brace the column in position and use high helix end mills. But this can get very expensive so Is their a more capable machine in the <$2500 category that is smaller then the Tormach but wont have these issues?

The only step up from an x3 I have really seen is the Grizzly G0519 and while defiantly more capable than an x3 its 8 times the volume on space being 45" x 55" I would need to put it on the floor so I could step over the axis to get to the lathe. Is their any machines in between these or should I just stick with an x3 and make it as rigid as possible and put on some good ground ballscrews, possibly add encoders to my steppers for PID so the system can deal with getting bogged down?

[jalessi]

These machines are very capable and they are in your neck of the woods.

https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...e-p-16134.html

[escott76]

possibly add encoders to my steppers for PID so the system can deal with getting bogged down?

Let's say for the sake of argument that you were able to implement such a scheme, then what? The encoders tell the steppers they aren't where they are supposed to be and.....they up their power to make it where they need to be? No. The stepper has what power it has, you can't magically make it be where it needs to be by adding an encoder, only tell where it should be and fault out. Which means you tried to take too heavy a cut.
IMHO it's much easier to learn to work within the capabilities of the machine you have. Take smaller lighter cuts.

[jalessi]

A guy can dream you know.

[youngjim]

These machines are very capable and they are in your neck of the woods.

https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...e-p-16134.html

As an aside, thank you for the lead; getting machines up here is a matter of going across the border - a day's drive each way - or getting bent over the barrel on shipping. Perhaps from these guys it won't be too bad. Any insight into the quality of their products? Acceptable alternate to what they're cloned from?

Jim

[jalessi]

Jim,

The gentleman that owns Machine Tools Warehouse is also a member here on the CNC Zone.

He is a stickler for quality and is very nice.

Give them a call,

Jeff...

[youngjim]

Thank you for the insight, I'm glad I have a solid lead to work on. (One problem down!)

Jim

[SCzEngrgGroup]

These machines are very capable and they are in your neck of the woods.

https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...e-p-16134.html

That is an RF-45 clone, just like the G0519, which he's already said is too big....

Regards,
Ray L.

[The Blight]

Let's say for the sake of argument that you were able to implement such a scheme, then what? The encoders tell the steppers they aren't where they are supposed to be and.....they up their power to make it where they need to be? No. The stepper has what power it has, you can't magically make it be where it needs to be by adding an encoder, only tell where it should be and fault out. Which means you tried to take too heavy a cut.
IMHO it's much easier to learn to work within the capabilities of the machine you have. Take smaller lighter cuts.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43359

[jalessi]

Ray,

they make a medium sized mill also.

https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...l-p-16135.html

Sorry for the confusion,

Jeff...

[escott76]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43359

I've read a bunch of stuff from a bunch of people who are working on these kind of systems...
a)It doesn't fullfill the "I already have the controllers and don't want to spend a lot of money" that the OP stated
b)I have yet to see these systems in common use, or even commonly available, so it pays to withhold judgment
c)None of that addresses the fact that if you are missing steps, you are taking too much of a cut for the machine. If it slows down to compensate, you chose the wrong feed rate for the cut, and the machine DOES NOT REMOVE MATERIAL FASTER.

I am not saying there is no benefit, in fact I'd prolly buy up a couple of these systems. But it isn't going to make the machine do it's job of removing harder material better like the OP asked for. It's also not the only factor, you have to consider the spindle as a major part of this.

[jalessi]

escott76,

The Gecko servo stepper sounds very promising, the problem as you stated is it is not out of the engineering phase yet.

Like I said before, you cant fault a guy for dreaming.

Jeff...

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I've read a bunch of stuff from a bunch of people who are working on these kind of systems...
a)It doesn't fullfill the "I already have the controllers and don't want to spend a lot of money" that the OP stated
b)I have yet to see these systems in common use, or even commonly available, so it pays to withhold judgment
c)None of that addresses the fact that if you are missing steps, you are taking too much of a cut for the machine. If it slows down to compensate, you chose the wrong feed rate for the cut, and the machine DOES NOT REMOVE MATERIAL FASTER.

I am not saying there is no benefit, in fact I'd prolly buy up a couple of these systems. But it isn't going to make the machine do it's job of removing harder material better like the OP asked for. It's also not the only factor, you have to consider the spindle as a major part of this.

Scott,

I agree it is not applicable to the OPs needs, but I think you didn't read *all* of that thread. Mariss plans to make the new "step-servo" drives work with the G100 in such a way that when the motor becomes too heavily loaded, the G100 will slow down the step rate, to let the motor "catch up". This is done by feeding back a motor load signal to the G100. And, due to the way the step-servo works, it will provide 2-3X the usable torque of an open-loop stepper, so it *will* allow you to go faster. In terms of position accuracy, his initial testing actually shows it *exceeds* that of a DC servo by quite a large margin. It looks like quite an impressive device. If it truly performs as he's indicated, and Mariss is not known for exageration, it will really be something!

Regards,
Ray L.

[escott76]

Scott,

I agree it is not applicable to the OPs needs, but I think you didn't read *all* of that thread. Mariss plans to make the new "step-servo" drives work with the G100 in such a way that when the motor becomes too heavily loaded, the G100 will slow down the step rate, to let the motor "catch up". This is done by feeding back a motor load signal to the G100. And, due to the way the step-servo works, it will provide 2-3X the usable torque of an open-loop stepper, so it *will* allow you to go faster. In terms of position accuracy, his initial testing actually shows it *exceeds* that of a DC servo by quite a large margin. It looks like quite an impressive device. If it truly performs as he's indicated, and Mariss is not known for exageration, it will really be something!

Regards,
Ray L.

My first name is not Scott, so there's that. I did read all the thread. It doesn't exist in a saleable form yet, so I'm withholding judgment until that day. In other words I find it hard to hang the hopes of someone who wants to plan a system today on tech that simply isn't ready yet. The G100 was SUPPOSED to do a whole lot of things too, but they aren't all that popular.
I'm sure you are aware of the CNCBrain as well. Falls into the same category.
Again, it's great that people are working on these things, and as I said, if they made one that worked reliably and had the features I would want (compat with Mach 3 in the case of the CNC brain) I'd buy it. But that day has not yet arrived.

[The Blight]

Was simply showing that it's possible.

CNCBrain vs Gecko?!

[SCzEngrgGroup]

My first name is not Scott, so there's that. I did read all the thread. It doesn't exist in a saleable form yet, so I'm withholding judgment until that day. In other words I find it hard to hang the hopes of someone who wants to plan a system today on tech that simply isn't ready yet. The G100 was SUPPOSED to do a whole lot of things too, but they aren't all that popular.
I'm sure you are aware of the CNCBrain as well. Falls into the same category.
Again, it's great that people are working on these things, and as I said, if they made one that worked reliably and had the features I would want (compat with Mach 3 in the case of the CNC brain) I'd buy it. But that day has not yet arrived.

"My first name is not Scott, so there's that." - Well, since you don't use a signature, kinda hard for us to know....

[tikka308]

"Steel-capable" can be a broad requirement. 12L14 is a heck of a lot easier to mill than 4140, stainless, etc.

I had similar space constraints and ended up purchasing a TAIG about 2 years ago. Since then, I've moved from milling only aluminum on it to milling a lot of steel - including 1018 and 4140. It takes very modest cuts in steel, but I'm somewhat indifferent since it's CNC controlled; if I takes 4 hours - then that's the price I pay for having a space-constrained shop. I'd LOVE to own a machine as large and rigid as the RF-45 (or - even better - an Industrial Hobbies!) but I can't right now. I have yet to find a part I cannot make on my humble TAIG.

[LongRat]

The issue would seem to be mainly, what is the definition of acceptable performance in steel? I have experience cutting 303 stainless on my X2 and it did a nice job, but we are not talking about anything fast.
I'm currently looking at this mill (http://www.weiss.com.cn/products/wmd30v.php) as are some others on the forum. It is bigger than an X3 with more travel, smaller and lighter than an RF45 and priced between them. Sounds like the sort of thing the OP might be looking for. The example I have seen in the flesh was more nicely finished than the Sieg machines and would be very easy to convert to CNC. Plus it has electronic variable speed and tops out at 3000 RPM, which is a bit faster than some of the competition.

[2_many_hobbies]

Hey, this is the fastest ive had a thread get responses ever.

Machine Tools Warehouse looks like a decent place and excellent prices for us up here but im in Vancouver and it would cost an insane amount to ship it 1500km to the other coast.

Thanks for pointing out the Weiss wmd30v thats exactly the machine specs I was looking for. Im ok with the travel of the x3 table but that wmd30v has a substantially better looking column and nicer finish. Not to mention 1.5HP motor! Only question is where do you buy them from?? I only know of the standard machine stores like HF, Grizzly, MicroMark, Homier, Busy Bee and thats about it.

tikka308: Im very surprised by your Taigs results, I was considering one for a while but decided against it. Defiantly shows what you can achieve when you do the calculations and use to right speeds/feeds.

My mention of using an encoder on the stepper was by no means a way of 'going faster' the only reason I would want to use them is having feedback on the load of the axis as well as the spindle so together even if you have your calculated speeds and your cutter gets dull instead of just plowing through the project the systems will adjust the feed rates to take load off of the tool and if necessary feed hold and let you know if you choose to continue you will forsake surface finish. Speed is not my goal as this is not for a business but I do want to have precise and sharp looking parts.

I will get an x3 without worrying if in reality a $1000 x3 and a $2000 smaller rf-45 type of machine will achieve the same quality of part. I believe its better to go premium ballscrews, zero backlash ballnuts, and good motors on an smaller mill than spending it on a larger one and less on the conversion. (Unless that upsized mill gives you a significant increase in value, which is what im asking)

[pete from TN]

if you have room for an X3 mill then you actually have about enough room for the RF45 which is gonna be more capable and rigid. I have not seen an X3 in person but I have seen enough pictures on here to see that it would take up about the same relative space. I purchased the Lathemaster mill from Bob Bertrand and it is and has been a very nice machine. I have made considerable modifications to it and it is now much more capable as well as cnc controlled. I believe the machines are like $1500.00 from Bob and I could not tell you what the shipping to Canada would be but I know he sends them all over the world. I have had several different machines over the last ten years including a Shoptask 17-20xmtc gold series, a RF31 round column mill, the Lathemaster I now have and I recently acquired a Knee mill in a good trade/cash deal. The Lathemaster mill is far and away the most capable mill I have owned short of the knee mill. The knee mill is definitely more rigid but for a benchtop machine the Lathmaster/rf45 is about as close as you can get to a knee mill short of the IH machine. If you are gonna go thru the trouble to convert a machine, and believe me it is a lot of work, I recommend getting something that is gonna really do what you need it to do. The Lathemaster mill cuts steel, aluminum, whatever relatively easily and the only real drawback is the spindle speed. I have built an external belt drive on mine and now I can reach 6k if necessary. I sure wish someone would build and sell at a reasonable price a naked tormach machine. Something that has the rigidity, accuracy, belt drive, and quality as well as size of the tormach machine but sans the cnc stuff so that people that cannot afford the tormach can buy it and convert it to cnc. That is not in the cards right now so the RF45 is about as close as you can get. If I had the coin at the time and knew about it I would probably have gotten the IH machine simply for it's larger travels but I am very satisfied with my machine. Just make sure that you get a machine big enough to do what you need to do now and what you MIGHT need to do later.....

As far as moving this machine, I always move it with my engine crane, but if need be I could move it in pieces myself. I have taken the whole machine apart and moved each and every piece individually. That is not to say that the pieces are light but I did not need any help to do it. Two people could easily move every part of this machine individually even into a room in the house. I used to have the machine in a spare bedroom when I first got it actually and put rubber pads on the floor to keep chips outta the carpet!! Good luck with whatever it is you buy and make sure you post pictures here....peace