[Ed from NY]

so its a small machine, with high performance, and a "fair" price. if the base machine sits near $5000 like all the others, it should do well. if it started at $10000 with an inch or 2 more travel and 4 times the weight, it would likely fail miserably.

I'm curious, do you have an idea of what the size of the market is?

I'm not sure what the margins are on these machines, but I imagine that 20% might be as high as you get. Which means that in order to keep a small company going based solely on this one would need to sell some 10-20 machines a month just to pay rent, utilities and incidentals, make payroll and take a reasonable amount home... unless it is a home-based operation.

[ihavenofish]

I'm curious, do you have an idea of what the size of the market is?

I'm not sure what the margins are on these machines, but I imagine that 20% might be as high as you get. Which means that in order to keep a small company going based solely on this one would need to sell some 10-20 machines a month just to pay rent, utilities and incidentals, make payroll and take a reasonable amount home... unless it is a home-based operation.

i dont really know what the numbers are actually, i only know what i see people buy, and what i would buy myself.

i know that novakon in toronto seems to be making a living selling small machines.

i think you need a "build it and they will come" approach in this industry. if you have a machine for sale, and its value for the money, someone will take it off your hands. if you talk about making a machine, all you have is talk.

[WCIS]

... I own mainly U.S.A. and a couple japanese cnc's. I am no hypocrite, look before you leap. Also did'nt pay near what you clowns are trying to sell these little peices of junk for, they were all ready fully functioning cnc's with american controllers. I did someone who was in trouble a favor and took them off their hands for a deal...

Bought used capital equipment that didn't directly support any US (or other nationality) company. I can't believe this. I actually fell for the bait and argued. Again I offer my apologies to all who've read this thread and/or participated in it.

[dertsap]

i have nothing with people voicing there opinion and from what i translated for the forum is a rule, evrybody is intiteled to its opinion but there is still a way and a maner to voice an opinion and this was heading in a whole different direction then the thread op was. but for the part where some thought it was and some not a good idea thats all fine by me, but when you start mixing in politic then the limit is pretty small between discussing and flaming wich is were i tought this was heading or was allready happening.
anyway i just wanted to calm down temper, so lets just close the subject and head back to posting constructive comment instead of conflicting one.

I get your point , other than the fishing remark I was speaking in general and my intention wasn't to direct it toward you

[ataxy]

i dont really know what the numbers are actually, i only know what i see people buy, and what i would buy myself.

i know that novakon in toronto seems to be making a living selling small machines.

i think you need a "build it and they will come" approach in this industry. if you have a machine for sale, and its value for the money, someone will take it off your hands. if you talk about making a machine, all you have is talk.

honestly i think there is definitly a market for a small highly precise and powerfull machine, but low cost i think the niche is all ready in the process of been taken by larger company, but if a company would come out with a mill like i said there would definitly be a market for it..i definitly know a few small R&D that always work with small brass and stainless part that would buy into it.
for now at least we have the syil x5 coming lets just hope that it does not prove to be filled with bug and trouble, of course i am expecting to see some problem pop up here and there but from the look of it it should prove to be a interesting machine whe will probably here some news from the other maker soon to i guess unless they plan on waiting and see how it does..!

my perfect machine, for benchtop that is
would be in the
500 - 600 pounds
18x x 8y x 18z
2hp spindle with 50 to 10 000rpm
double ball nut 5/8 on x and y and 3/4 on z
wide double pillow block and rail on all axis so basicaly four on each axis
controller and electronic not attached to the mill but to a seperate case
real cnc controller, nothing against mach3 just feel that the dream machine should have a real controller you know the one with the small screen and touch button and mpg that work with the controller (syil :nono: )
i would still user stepper for there low price compared to servo but i would equip it with with good electronic
column should be square and not u shaped and be wide at the base
also nice bearing all over
the whole should cost no more then 9k
most of what i said is pretty close to the new machine that whe see appearing just a bit more crafstmanship

I get your point , other than the fishing remark I was speaking in general and my intention wasn't to direct it toward you

no problem

[cncjunky]

So "IHAVENOFISH" how are you equipped to even manufacture these machines? What kind of machines and tooling do you have? What kind of shop do you have, do you own your shop, is it even a shop or just a garage, or do you rent shop space? Do you have employees? Do you have other work you can rely on and pay your employees for?

For something like this to work you either 1, have to have a large production style shop with large production equipment to make it at a reasonable price and be able to pay your employees. Or you have to be able to have people that are willing to put their good faith in you and your product and work for that idea and short term making little money and that in the future this will grow into something large and pay off. I do not hope you fail, that is not how I'm trying to come across, now if you go towards having your product manufactured in china I hope you fall on your face and totally waste every bit of time and effort you had in this idea and hopefully it will even cost you a healthy bit of change. Now if your a man and do this all U.S.A. and Canada then I give you my best regards and will even say a prayer for you. Please though answer the above questions I'm sure we'd all like to hear your answers...

[ihavenofish]

my perfect machine, for benchtop that is
would be in the
500 - 600 pounds
18x x 8y x 18z
2hp spindle with 50 to 10 000rpm
double ball nut 5/8 on x and y and 3/4 on z
wide double pillow block and rail on all axis so basicaly four on each axis
controller and electronic not attached to the mill but to a seperate case
real cnc controller, nothing against mach3 just feel that the dream machine should have a real controller you know the one with the small screen and touch button and mpg that work with the controller (syil :nono: )
i would still user stepper for there low price compared to servo but i would equip it with with good electronic
column should be square and not u shaped and be wide at the base
also nice bearing all over
the whole should cost no more then 9k
most of what i said is pretty close to the new machine that whe see appearing just a bit more crafstmanship

no problem

interesting spec. will be had to meet your price though. the reason is that most "independant controls" use ac servos and cost nearly as much as your $9000 budget. sieg for example offers the kx3 - a $5500 machine - with the siemens 810 controller and enclosure. that retails for over $16000.

if you stick with mach (or emc), i think what the chinese makers have on the way would hit what you want. they seem to be heading for more weight though, nearer 1000lbs.

thats where i part company. i cant do with the weight. i need to make something lighter.

[WCIS]

thats where i part company. i cant do with the weight. i need to make something lighter.

Can you please explain your position on the weight issue? I'm old school, was trained on old equipment. The first lathe I ran was a good old 9" South Bend. Then was allowed to run a LaBlonde. The latter was a behemoth, but had a realatively small capacity. What I quickly saw was the ability to take heavier cuts and I was able to acheive a much more appealing finish with identical tooling. That's what led me to believe the heavier the better. It was explained to me that the added cast iron damped out the vibrations the cutter produced therefore the result is a better finish. Are you saying a "tight" machine will produce the same result? What is your expectation of max cutter diameter? Just curious....

[Runner4404spd]

at some point you have to design something with mass to dampen vibrations of the cutter. sure you can design a really light weight machine but your limiting your self on what you can cut. i have no doubt that kx1 can cut stainless, aluminum, etc, but i bet my IH will do it alot faster. i don't have 3 days to wait for a part to come off the machine so i bought the biggest i could afford when i started my shop. after that i invested in a fadal 3016. night and day difference between a professional machine and a hobby unit.

[ihavenofish]

Can you please explain your position on the weight issue? I'm old school, was trained on old equipment. The first lathe I ran was a good old 9" South Bend. Then was allowed to run a LaBlonde. The latter was a behemoth, but had a realatively small capacity. What I quickly saw was the ability to take heavier cuts and I was able to acheive a much more appealing finish with identical tooling. That's what led me to believe the heavier the better. It was explained to me that the added cast iron damped out the vibrations the cutter produced therefore the result is a better finish. Are you saying a "tight" machine will produce the same result? What is your expectation of max cutter diameter? Just curious....

weight is for damping. it reduces certain types of vibrations that cause chatter which results in poor finish and broken tools among other things. chatter like this isnt necessarily cause by deep or heavy cuts, but rather cuts that have just the right frequencies to match the machine frame. simply throwing literally a tonne of mass at the machine does work in the same way a shotgun will get rid of a spider in your bathroom.

but there is another way to deal with those vibrations, and thats not to let them be created in the first place.

instead of going 1 ipm with a 1" end mill 1" deep in steel at 500rpm, we use a smaller tool, shallow passes, and high speeds.

this was never an option on manual machines for obvious reasons, but with cnc's able to move much faster and smoother, higher spindle speeds to match, along with coated carbide tooling you can create machining strategies that do just fine without the weight.

so while 1000lbs of iron in the right place will make any machine more stable, it doesnt make the machine hobby friendly. a 150lb machine i can put anywhere i want, and use smaller lighter components. the whole machine gets far cheaper, yet still has good abilities.

heres a hrc 55+ vise that was milled at 100ipm no less on my 115lb 0.6HP sieg KX1. was actually an accident, but worked amazingly well.



to add, this machine had play in the head while cutting. as in, i could pull on it and move it 0.1" with minimal effort. (early model, bad gibs, new versions dont have the same issue).

what im building is a "new" variation of this size machine. one that better suits my needs. it will have slightly more travel, c3 ballscres and linear rails. the frame will be more rigid by design, but only slightly heavier. the head and column will be far more sturdy. the spindle will be very high speed. it will use servos and rapid at 1000ipm. will cut at 100ipm as well if there was something that required it.

and yes, it will cut hardened steel, aluminium, brass, copper, wood, soft steel, stainless with ease provided you use the correct settings.

use the wrong settings, and you wont be having a good time. settings that probably sounded fine on a big machine - 1ipm, 1/2 cutter, full width, 1/4" deep in steel will knock the machine aroundt pretty bad. thing is, its also slower, and less efficient metal removal in the end, so theres real no reason to do anything like that short of nostalgia.

how mau is also building a new version of their little machine. theirs will be basically the same kx1 machine, but with linear rails and a few other upgrades. im trying to persuade them to make a few other changes to the column. their machine might retail somewhere in around $5000 - the current one is well under $4000.

if you consider that a "base", mine would be a high performace model in the same market. faster, more accurate, stronger, more rigid, more options... and more money. the "base" of mine from a turnkey supplier would probably be at least $1000 more than theirs, and with 50k spindle, atc, roller rails, and other goddies easily hit $10000+. from that your market evapourates i think. people with $10000 to blow on a machine are usually in business, and with either just go bigger for the same money, or go better for more money.

of course thats why i dont plan on selling turnkey machines. ill sell the frame casting kits, and someone else can decide if they have a market to build them up. otherwise hobby diy types should be able to cobble a great machine together for under $5000.

[cncjunky]

Heavier is better, always, no question. You want high tolerance and be able to machine heavier parts, you want a heavy machine. Thats not saying high tolerance only has to do with weight, but a heavy more rigid machine will give you less vibration = higher tolerance and much nicer cut. Professional industrial equipment is heavy and hobby cheap garbage is flimsey and ill equipped.

[ihavenofish]

i have no doubt that kx1 can cut stainless, aluminum, etc, but i bet my IH will do it alot faster.

ooh, a challenge!

got an example part?



the IH is a fine machine, and wielding a 3" facemill will make my little guy very sad indeed.... but i think youd be a bit shocked what happens when the tools hit 1/4" or smaller... or hardened tool steel.

[WCIS]

weight is for damping. it reduces certain types of vibrations that cause chatter which results in poor finish and broken tools among other things. chatter like this isnt necessarily cause by deep or heavy cuts, but rather cuts that have just the right frequencies to match the machine frame. simply throwing literally a tonne of mass at the machine does work in the same way a shotgun will get rid of a spider in your bathroom.

but there is another way to deal with those vibrations, and thats not to let them be created in the first place.

instead of going 1 ipm with a 1" end mill 1" deep in steel at 500rpm, we use a smaller tool, shallow passes, and high speeds.

this was never an option on manual machines for obvious reasons, but with cnc's able to move much faster and smoother, higher spindle speeds to match, along with coated carbide tooling you can create machining strategies that do just fine without the weight.

so while 1000lbs of iron in the right place will make any machine more stable, it doesnt make the machine hobby friendly. a 150lb machine i can put anywhere i want, and use smaller lighter components. the whole machine gets far cheaper, yet still has good abilities.

heres a hrc 55+ vise that was milled at 100ipm no less on my 115lb 0.6HP sieg KX1. was actually an accident, but worked amazingly well.



to add, this machine had play in the head while cutting. as in, i could pull on it and move it 0.1" with minimal effort. (early model, bad gibs, new versions dont have the same issue).

what im building is a "new" variation of this size machine. one that better suits my needs. it will have slightly more travel, c3 ballscres and linear rails. the frame will be more rigid by design, but only slightly heavier. the head and column will be far more sturdy. the spindle will be very high speed. it will use servos and rapid at 1000ipm. will cut at 100ipm as well if there was something that required it.

and yes, it will cut hardened steel, aluminium, brass, copper, wood, soft steel, stainless with ease provided you use the correct settings.

use the wrong settings, and you wont be having a good time. settings that probably sounded fine on a big machine - 1ipm, 1/2 cutter, full width, 1/4" deep in steel will knock the machine aroundt pretty bad. thing is, its also slower, and less efficient metal removal in the end, so theres real no reason to do anything like that short of nostalgia.

how mau is also building a new version of their little machine. theirs will be basically the same kx1 machine, but with linear rails and a few other upgrades. im trying to persuade them to make a few other changes to the column. their machine might retail somewhere in around $5000 - the current one is well under $4000.

if you consider that a "base", mine would be a high performace model in the same market. faster, more accurate, stronger, more rigid, more options... and more money. the "base" of mine from a turnkey supplier would probably be at least $1000 more than theirs, and with 50k spindle, atc, roller rails, and other goddies easily hit $10000+. from that your market evapourates i think. people with $10000 to blow on a machine are usually in business, and with either just go bigger for the same money, or go better for more money.

of course thats why i dont plan on selling turnkey machines. ill sell the frame casting kits, and someone else can decide if they have a market to build them up. otherwise hobby diy types should be able to cobble a great machine together for under $5000.

Point taken and understood. I think I missed your marketing stategy in the beginning, but I think that makes sense. Furnish a kit at various levels of completion for the hobbyist. He/She can put some sweat equity into the machine and lower his/her cost as well. Personally if I were buying a the machine I would feel much better about the end result if I had quality components to begin with as I take too much pride in all my work. If I had to rework what I had just bought I would be quite angry.

Someone had mentioned earlier the notion of using stepper motors instead of servos. Have you had experience with this type control system on a milling machine and if so, how did the drive setup affect the finish? Parker sold a microstepping drive at one time with which I'm quite familiar with. It was used on a slitting machine for making foam tape. Screamed like a banche, but was very fast in positioning. Another drive fed the blade into the material and for foam tape the result was great. Always wondered how well that would work on a milling machine.

[ihavenofish]

Point taken and understood. I think I missed your marketing stategy in the beginning, but I think that makes sense. Furnish a kit at various levels of completion for the hobbyist. He/She can put some sweat equity into the machine and lower his/her cost as well. Personally if I were buying a the machine I would feel much better about the end result if I had quality components to begin with as I take too much pride in all my work. If I had to rework what I had just bought I would be quite angry.

Someone had mentioned earlier the notion of using stepper motors instead of servos. Have you had experience with this type control system on a milling machine and if so, how did the drive setup affect the finish? Parker sold a microstepping drive at one time with which I'm quite familiar with. It was used on a slitting machine for making foam tape. Screamed like a banche, but was very fast in positioning. Another drive fed the blade into the material and for foam tape the result was great. Always wondered how well that would work on a milling machine.

my machine uses steppers and a gecko 540 drive from mach. it generally works very well. the machine ahs 4mm pitch screws, making it capable of in around 250ipm. i run a 19v psu, which limits the high end torque of the motors which are rated to 41v. as a result with the gibs tight, i only get 120ipm reliably. with the correct psu and linear rails, the same setups will easily motor around at 250ipm i think. with better motors, probably even higher. the motors with the machine have 180oz-in and a sharp falloff after 1000rpm.

i have parker servos which ill be using on my design, but ive not tried them yet. they have less stall torque than the steppers, but maintain it to 7500rpm. so on linear rails, i should have 1.5G acceleration. we'll find out how it works out in practice. worst case i can gear the motor down with a belt if cutting forces overwhelm it. i dont see that being an issue though.

i think steppers on hobby machines have given people a misconception of how much torque is really needed to move a machine. thats another subject though.

[Switcher]

simply throwing literally a tonne of mass at the machine does work in the same way a shotgun will get rid of a spider in your bathroom

That was funny LOL!

Only becuse I just killed a spider in my bathroom (no guns involved).

[WCIS]

...i think steppers on hobby machines have given people a misconception of how much torque is really needed to move a machine. thats another subject though.

I know you said you would try servo drives on your prototype, and as quoted above further stated to the effect drive type is another subject. I disagree with that somewhat. And, here's an attempt at expaining why:

As you already know any stepper motor's torque curve takes a nose dive at a certain point which is a function of rotational velocity and load torque. At said point the motor looses synchronization and stalls. I believe Parker addressed this issue with their microstepping technology, but only modest gains were achieved. And, steppers can have huge amounts of holding torque at rest and large amounts of low speed torque. (BTW - The low speed torque is the crux of this point.) Therefore, in designs I'm familiar with the stepper motors were over sized and gear ratios set up to move loads faster with lower motor RPM. Oversizing the motor also helped to minimize or eliminate the unwanted stall and this solution was easier to impliment rather than the added complexity of encoder feedback on the motor itself. (These were all open loop designs.)

One must consider the max feed rate desired on his machine for any given axis. This feed rate and subsequently the torque requirement at that feed rate must be made to fit well within the stepper's torque curve to prevent a stall condition. THEN one must consider the lowest feed rate desired and how that low stepper rotational velocity (which will become noticeable incremental steps) will affect cutter performance. This will determine the usable feed rate range for a given material.

A servo on the other hand has a constant torque up to a much higher rotational velocity limit. (Servos can be had in almost any size your wallet will allow.) A servo's internal design allows for smooth rotation thoughout it's RPM range. Therefore, one can achieve a much greater turn-down which translates into a much wider feed rate range.

In summary, the drive motor choice will affect lead screw selection, gearing selection, and unit pricing. Servos will offer better machine performance, but will send the unit cost to the moon. You may want to consider offering different gearing options with your packages to enable your customer to decide which drive system to use...

[ihavenofish]

I know you said you would try servo drives on your prototype, and as quoted above further stated to the effect drive type is another subject. I disagree with that somewhat. And, here's an attempt at expaining why:

As you already know any stepper motor's torque curve takes a nose dive at a certain point which is a function of rotational velocity and load torque. At said point the motor looses synchronization and stalls. I believe Parker addressed this issue with their microstepping technology, but only modest gains were achieved. And, steppers can have huge amounts of holding torque at rest and large amounts of low speed torque. (BTW - The low speed torque is the crux of this point.) Therefore, in designs I'm familiar with the stepper motors were over sized and gear ratios set up to move loads faster with lower motor RPM. Oversizing the motor also helped to minimize or eliminate the unwanted stall and this solution was easier to impliment rather than the added complexity of encoder feedback on the motor itself. (These were all open loop designs.)

One must consider the max feed rate desired on his machine for any given axis. This feed rate and subsequently the torque requirement at that feed rate must be made to fit well within the stepper's torque curve to prevent a stall condition. THEN one must consider the lowest feed rate desired and how that low stepper rotational velocity (which will become noticeable incremental steps) will affect cutter performance. This will determine the usable feed rate range for a given material.

A servo on the other hand has a constant torque up to a much higher rotational velocity limit. (Servos can be had in almost any size your wallet will allow.) A servo's internal design allows for smooth rotation thoughout it's RPM range. Therefore, one can achieve a much greater turn-down which translates into a much wider feed rate range.

In summary, the drive motor choice will affect lead screw selection, gearing selection, and unit pricing. Servos will offer better machine performance, but will send the unit cost to the moon. You may want to consider offering different gearing options with your packages to enable your customer to decide which drive system to use...

the kits is iron castings. there is no drive mechanism intended to ship with it. thats up to the builder.

people with low budgets or performance needs will use steppers, people with demands for speed and accuracy with use servos. thats completely out of my consideration designing the machine. belt drives are optional.


i did the math in my other thread, and the result is, this machine simply doesnt require that much torque from the drive motors. any motor producing over 0.7NM torque at cutting speed will be MORE than adequate and a mere 0.3NM at rapid speed is enough even with agressive accelerations.

for example, accelerating a 40KG load around on linear rails (Y axis supporting the X and a farly huge work piece) at 1g requires 0.3NM torque at the motor. my $750 parker servos produce 0.7NM continuous, and 1.4NM for short bursts of a few seconds with adequate cooling. a comparable $120 parker stepper produces 1.3NM.

then theres cutting forces. lets say i have a 2nm torque at the spindle (5000rpm, 1.75hp), on a 1/2" cutter, thats 88 lbs maximum possible tangential force into an axis (never happens, usually distributed between all axes). this adds 0.32NM to the torque needed for acceleration and motion. this means we can take a rediculously agressive cut with a far too powerful spindle WHILE accelerating at 1G and not even get out of continuous duty for the parker servo, and stay far below the available torque of the stepper.

for the Z axis, raising the head with a partial counter balance is still easily within both motors capability, and plunging and drilling force is over 150 lbs on the servo, and 300lbs on the stepper which is much more than this machine should ever see.

so the only meaningful difference between the 2 is top speed and theoretical accuracy, and of course price - a complete 3 axis mach controlable system from parker costs over $5000 new, a parker stepper solution is under $1000. obviously there are systems cheaper than these, but it makes for a good comparison.

for reference
parker sm232be at 170V gets 7500rpm. with a 4mm pitch screw this is 1180ipm which can be used for both rapids and cutting. voltage can be dropped as low as 48V and 1900rpm (300ipm) with only a loss in top speed, not torque.

the parker lv233 stepper maintains enough torque for our worst case cutting up to 250ipm, and enough for rapids up to 380 ipm at 75v. at 48v in series you at 190/275ipm, and at 24v you get 95/135ipm. parker makes a 170v version of this motor that gets considerably more torque at speed allowing cutting up to 470ipm easily, but the costs are dramatically higher.

my dovetail kx1 currently runs at a mere 19v, yet manages reliably with a loaded table at 120ipm with the acceleration cut way down to 0.1g and realistic cutting loads for the 500 watt spindle - all still very agressive by most bench mini mill standards.

[pppmike]

You had better believe that I would LOVE to have a choice between a U.S.A. product and a China product. Just this past week I purchased two drill press XY vises. Both from China. Both came to me via UPS Ground from just a state or two away and both had castings that were in powder form when they arrived. I purchased a U.S.A. after I returned the other two vises and it also came from 2 states away. It arrived in PERFECT condition. The castings of the vise were beautiful and the vise moved very smoothly. I also purchased a new 4 inch China Angle Lock style vise off Ebay. It came in with a pretty paint job but the vise handle wouldn't even fit on the vise. I have had it with Chinese machine tools. I just bought a U.S.A. Kurt D40 vise and it came in to me in absolutely beautiful condition AND the handle fits. The bottom line is I would LOVE to buy nothing but U.S.A. machine tools and wouldn't mind paying a bit more. Maybe even twice as much for a comparable product. I also must say that I love my Sieg X3 Mill converted to CNC. There are some well made Chinese machine tools and machines out there but you have to look VERY HARD.

[M250cnc]

the kits is iron castings. there is no drive mechanism intended to ship with it. thats up to the builder.

people with low budgets or performance needs will use steppers, people with demands for speed and accuracy with use servos. thats completely out of my consideration designing the machine. belt drives are optional.


i did the math in my other thread, and the result is, this machine simply doesnt require that much torque from the drive motors. any motor producing over 0.7NM torque at cutting speed will be MORE than adequate and a mere 0.3NM at rapid speed is enough even with agressive accelerations.

for example, accelerating a 40KG load around on linear rails (Y axis supporting the X and a farly huge work piece) at 1g requires 0.3NM torque at the motor. my $750 parker servos produce 0.7NM continuous, and 1.4NM for short bursts of a few seconds with adequate cooling. a comparable $120 parker stepper produces 1.3NM.

then theres cutting forces. lets say i have a 2nm torque at the spindle (5000rpm, 1.75hp), on a 1/2" cutter, thats 88 lbs maximum possible tangential force into an axis (never happens, usually distributed between all axes). this adds 0.32NM to the torque needed for acceleration and motion. this means we can take a rediculously agressive cut with a far too powerful spindle WHILE accelerating at 1G and not even get out of continuous duty for the parker servo, and stay far below the available torque of the stepper.

for the Z axis, raising the head with a partial counter balance is still easily within both motors capability, and plunging and drilling force is over 150 lbs on the servo, and 300lbs on the stepper which is much more than this machine should ever see.

so the only meaningful difference between the 2 is top speed and theoretical accuracy, and of course price - a complete 3 axis mach controlable system from parker costs over $5000 new, a parker stepper solution is under $1000. obviously there are systems cheaper than these, but it makes for a good comparison.

for reference
parker sm232be at 170V gets 7500rpm. with a 4mm pitch screw this is 1180ipm which can be used for both rapids and cutting. voltage can be dropped as low as 48V and 1900rpm (300ipm) with only a loss in top speed, not torque.

the parker lv233 stepper maintains enough torque for our worst case cutting up to 250ipm, and enough for rapids up to 380 ipm at 75v. at 48v in series you at 190/275ipm, and at 24v you get 95/135ipm. parker makes a 170v version of this motor that gets considerably more torque at speed allowing cutting up to 470ipm easily, but the costs are dramatically higher.

my dovetail kx1 currently runs at a mere 19v, yet manages reliably with a loaded table at 120ipm with the acceleration cut way down to 0.1g and realistic cutting loads for the 500 watt spindle - all still very agressive by most bench mini mill standards.

Verbal Diarrhoea, i had you spouting :bs: in a conversation with another potential builder.

Any newbie reading your bile would think you knew what you were talking about. But low and behold you started this thread http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107749

so, i got a mill here that uses a cnc4pc break out board with gecko g203v drives and nema43 motors.

im getting random stalling as a program runs. x and y in random places. z does not seem to stall, though the programs have only small incremental z motions.

i had random stalls on my g540 at one point, and tuned them out using pulse timing in the motor tuning settings in mach. on the g203 machine, i cant seem to get rid of them. ive tried every kernel speed, every pulse setting, speed, acceleration etc. tried sheline mode as well. sometimes it will go many hours/days of running with no stalls, then stall every 5 minutes.

at this point i have only a few more thoughts:

1- possibly flakey power? would unstable power cause soemthing like this? the las bout of bad stalls was during a rain storm and the building is know for not having the best power. i know computers are very fault tolerant on power, but maybe the gecko isnt?

2- bad pc. doesnt seem to be using 100% cpu, but maybe its not liking the paralel config. this is a coputer used in all of this suppliers machines which report very few issues.

thats all i got at this point. anyone have any other ideas?

Yeah I've got an idea, you know sweet FA

[ihavenofish]

youre so cool, can i be your friend?