[Adam Baker]

I was curious if anyone knows if there are any desktop size 5axis milling centers w/ a tool changer?

I know that Emco has a smaller 3 axis machine that has an 8 station tool changer, but from what I read of the specs, its only set up for a single rotary axis.

The sherline CNC mills obviously dont have tool changers, and according to the gentlemen I exchanged a few emails w/ at Sherline, their control is only setup for a single rotary axis.

My biggest issue right now is the lack of knowledge on how to convert an existing 3 axis machine to 5 axis.

I do know that a seperate tool changer is available ( I believe I saw one on the LittleMachineShop.com website).

I work as a 5axis machine operator and have recently graduated w/ an assoc. degree in machining technology, but neither of these provide the experience to perform the conversion I want.

How difficult would it be to convert a 3 axis machine to 5 axis?

Im not concerned about cost at this point, as Im just in the research stage. Im not in a position to be able to buy anything, and probably wont for at least a year, but I figure that doing the research now might make things easier for me when Im finally able to buy something.

The biggest reason why I'd like to have a 5 axis machine w/ a tool changer is Im contemplating maybe trying to put together a small side business making custom parts for plastic model kits, and having the extra rotary axis' on the machine would allow me to machine pretty much anything I can think of.

[LongRat]

You could check out the trunnion table made by MDA Precision (http://www.mdaprecision.com/). The specs on this are very nice and you could retrofit it on to any 3 axis mill of sufficient size. Or you could build your own like Hoss. Building the controller wouldn't be any more difficult than adding a couple of extra axis drives and these could be run fine with Mach3 or EMC2 under Linux. The real issue is the CAM system, if you have that then the major cost problem is pretty much solved.

[Adam Baker]

Well, CAM isnt an issue. I have GibbsCAM 2007 and have access to SurfCam so that sort of thing isnt an issue.

Building wouldnt be an issue either, if I had some kind of walkthrough to follow. Im definitely mechanically inclined, so building something isnt an issue, I just lack the knowledge specific to this sort of thing.

[Deviant]

I would expect that there is not a lot of options for an off the shelf setup for a 5axis desktop machine.

Hoss from http://www.hossmachine.info/ has made some incredible additions to his x2.

But I don't believe he has 5 axis going it. I'd suspect that it is in the works, somewhere in the back of his mind.

More than likely, you will need to build most of the stuff yourself. You can get 3 axis pretty easy, then you can add the 4th via rotary table. I'd guess that the 5th would be from rotating head, or table.

Sounds like an adventurous project.

[escott76]

Well, CAM isnt an issue. I have GibbsCAM 2007 and have access to SurfCam so that sort of thing isnt an issue.

Building wouldnt be an issue either, if I had some kind of walkthrough to follow. Im definitely mechanically inclined, so building something isnt an issue, I just lack the knowledge specific to this sort of thing.

It might be if you don't have the proper post, or the ability to write your own. Custom posts can run into the several thou, just something to be aware of.
The knowledge required is the same as that to set up a 3 axis machine, with the added details of keeping the additional two axis straight, which if you operate one I would expect you already have.
There are many people here on the zone who have documented their conversion/builds although most usually do only up to 4 axis. That's the closest thing you are going to find to a walkthrough. Mach3 can handle up to 6 axis simultaneous, so making a 5 axis machine from that point of view is literally hooking up 2 extra step/servo motor drives. Their manual (free download) describes is great detail how to hook up a machine and configure it. They have many tutorial videos as well.
Most desktop sized mills I know of aren't going to come from anywhere turnkey with a 5 axis setup, nor with an automatic tool changer. Is it just the ability to change tools and maintain offsets while manually changing tools, or do you require the machine to do it for you? The tormach system can help with the changing tools and keeping offsets, but it won't change the tools for you. You can home brew a similar system.
There's a lot of info out there for the taking, I'd start reading. It really isn't all that complex to set up, just takes a bit of research.

[howecnc]

under the type of trunnion that longrat is showing you(thanks by the way), your coordinate systems would need to be place at the center of rotation of what I assume would be the A axis for Z and center of the C axis for X and Y. You could also set a coordinate system for each position programmed, which I prefer less. Post processor would be the biggest issue. Trusting your code from the cam is key.

[Adam Baker]

Ah, roger. Yea, the post processing could be an issue, i didnt think of it that way when CAM was mentioned. I have several Haas related mill post files, but no clue if any of 'em could be altered to work. I may be able to find someone I work w/ that could possible help me w/ writing a post file. When it comes to programming, I have very little experience. Only experience I have was a C++ class I took about 10 years ago, so i remember very little of it.

As for getting a machine, Im kinda figuring it out that its not going to be an out of hte box setup, that Im probably going to have to add at least 1 rotary axis, if not both of them. I think what I'd prefer most would be to find a machine that has a tool changer installed already, and then work on adding the 2 rotary's to it.

[Farasien]

If you haven't taken a look at Hoss' site, you should (hossmachine.info). He has made some improvements to his X2 that wouls allow for 5 axis capability. I'm in the process of doing the same thing (except replace his tilting head plans with a small CNC'd rotary table for the B axis).

If you have some imagination, access to a few machine tools to make the parts and materials, its not too hard to make just about anything you are capable of machining. If you do a search and look hard, there is a site out there for a Sherline mill someone converted to 5 axis, though I forget exactly where I saw it or I'd shoot you the URL. All in all, the mechanicals, in my opinion, are the easy part.

CAM... that's another issue. I use Mastercam X for my toolpathing, and from what little I've researched it thus far, you have to write a new machine definition for it to function correctly-not much fun and could cause you to lose more sleep than you might think (by the way- anyone have any decent clues or 'dummy'-type references on how one goes about this? I'm stuck...). I use Mach 3 which is 6-axis capable (more, I think, if you count a tool changer- again, ask Hoss for better info) so control isn't an issue either. Most intro cam packages out there are 3 axis capable, most of those have 4 axis capability too, but 5 axis is a bit more exclusive unless you are really good at coding things from scratch, from what I've seen.

-F

[jdr]

Minitech in the USA makes a small 5-axis desktop machine.

[Adam Baker]

Thanks for the info jdr. I found their website.

From looking at the various 5 axis designs, it looks like a trunion is the common design used for a relatively light weight 5 axis design. I almost think I could just buy 2 rotary axis components and build my own trunion, instead of spending the money to buy a pre-built unit. The Minitech 2 axis trunion is 5k by itself, which is a lot more than I'd like to spend.

I like the idea of taking a manual mill, and converting it to CNC using the various methods Ive seen here, including the info provided on Hoss's website. Once the 3 axis conversion would be complete, then I could start working on adding the 2 rotary axis'.

*edit* For a tool changer, I was thinking it would be best to find a machine w/ one installed already, but I just noticed a link to a thread Hoss has going, designing a 16 tool ATC for his machine. Im reading through it now, and I love the idea of that. So its looking a lot more likely that I'll get something such as an X2 and try going the route Hoss has w/ his. Convert it to CNC, and then start working beyond that. I have to say Im really glad I found this forum, as it looks like it will make it much easier to do what Im eventually hoping to pull off.

[escott76]

Thanks for the info jdr. I found their website.

From looking at the various 5 axis designs, it looks like a trunion is the common design used for a relatively light weight 5 axis design. I almost think I could just buy 2 rotary axis components and build my own trunion, instead of spending the money to buy a pre-built unit. The Minitech 2 axis trunion is 5k by itself, which is a lot more than I'd like to spend.

I like the idea of taking a manual mill, and converting it to CNC using the various methods Ive seen here, including the info provided on Hoss's website. Once the 3 axis conversion would be complete, then I could start working on adding the 2 rotary axis'.

*edit* For a tool changer, I was thinking it would be best to find a machine w/ one installed already, but I just noticed a link to a thread Hoss has going, designing a 16 tool ATC for his machine. Im reading through it now, and I love the idea of that. So its looking a lot more likely that I'll get something such as an X2 and try going the route Hoss has w/ his. Convert it to CNC, and then start working beyond that. I have to say Im really glad I found this forum, as it looks like it will make it much easier to do what Im eventually hoping to pull off.

There are several projects you might enjoy reading, people who have essentially built their own machine. Several folks have done machines using large 8020 extrusions, I built mine using heavy aluminum extrusion, and linear rails. I used the headstock from the Sherline mill I had that I replaced. If you have access to machinery to build things, you can do really well.

[hoss2006]

Adam,
This homemade MAXNC 5th axis conversion has been around for a while that uses EMC2 for control.

Homemade 5-axis machine run by EMC2



Doughty Drive make a light duty attachment that can be used as a 4th,5th and 6th axis.
They show several videos of the configurations that can be used including
as a trunnion or a spindle.

B&C axis

Software is the biggest concern I would have, $$$$, but CNC Toolkit offer a free plugin for 3DS MAX, GMAX and Autodesk VIZ.
Check out the 5 axis mill conversions under CNC Machines.
Hoss

[LongRat]

One point to make - 5 axis capability on a standard (not a Hoss freak mill) size X2 will leave you with a TINY working envelope. I would consider a bigger base to start from if at all possible.

[Adam Baker]

escott, thats definitely an option. It might actually be better for me to do a totally scratch system. At this point Im just looking at whats available, and the costs and such and kinda going from there.

Thanks for those links Hoss. I like the look of the Doughty mini-trunnion, since its only supported on one side. The CNC machines built by the company I work for, use single sided trunnions like that, and I prefer that to the double supported versions that seem to be more common in smaller mills.

My only concern about the Doughty trunnion specifically, is it seems to be designed more for wood working projects and plastics. The vast majority of what I would be machining would be Brass, Aluminum, Copper and occasionally small pieces of steel, so I'd be concerned about rigidity during those machining cycles.

I suppose having the cutting head rotating would be an option, but I'd much rather had the cutting head be rigidly mounted.

Longrat, yea, that was something I was thinking about todya. I'd definitely look into making a larger working area. If I could get it how I'd like, I'd build it large enough that there would be additional room to work besides just at the rotarys. Using something such as the Doughty mini-trunnion would make that easier b/c of its smaller size. I really like the size of the work area that Hoss has on his machine, and would like to have something similar to that.