[Metalmatic]

Hello,

I just recently stumbled upon this site on accident. Well, not really; when I asked the Google Gods about CNC they pointed me over here. After browsing the various forums, I decided to make a post myself. So, here it goes...

A little bit about myself: I'm currently enrolled in a program where we are taught both, welding and CNC skills. The welding component of the program is much more extensive then the CNC portion. However, the CNC portion of said program is going to be starting in a few weeks, so I'd thought I register here and hopefully get some answers to a few of my questions.

So, here it goes guys. Hope you won't mind helping this novice out a bit.

1) I was wondering if you could offer any advice/recommendations/observations on what you think would be a better career move, welding or CNC/machinist work? I've heard and read about a supposed welding shortage on the horizon (more opportunity and a brighter future?); I've also been told that the better welding jobs (pipe) are mostly seasonal; that non-union jobs do not pay very much, etc. From the CNC side: Steady work; you are in a shop vs. in the field (weather being an issue for some people. I'm fine with working outdoors); merit shops - your skill set determines your worth vs. rank, nepotism, union politics, etc; maybe a lesser know skill than welding. With the folks over at the AWS sounding the alarm about needing new welders, more people will flock to welding then CNC, leaving more CNC positions available for the skilled.

2) Are there positions in the manufacturing industry where one could use both sets on skills on a job? So far, I really like stick welding. Although I haven't gotten into any of the CNC classes as of yet, I did take CAD 1 & 2, Architectural drafting 1 & 2, and PC repair classes in high school. I kinda have any idea what I will be getting into, but not entirely. I do believe that I will love the CNC portion of the program. What opportunities might be available to someone in a situation like mine.

3) I know developing welding skills outside of the classroom can be difficult. Is it equally as difficult developing CNC skills outside of the class/shop as it is in welding? What can I do on my own (spare/off time) to better my CNC skill set, if anything?

4) Lastly, what are employers looking for when hiring individuals that are new to the profession? Through the program I'm enrolled in, we are going to take (and hopefully pass) a test that leads to a National Institute for Metalworking Skills (NIMS) certification. I understand that certified does not equal qualified, but do you feel this certification will help someone just starting out? What can I do to get my foot in the door of a company that is proactive in the development of their employees? While money is important, I'm really looking for a place that I can really learn alot while at work. Any advice?

Those are some of the questions that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure as soon as I hit the 'submit' button, tons more will come racing to the fore-front of my mind. My CNC classes start in 2 weeks.

Thanks in advance,

Metalmatic

[JDenyer232]

Hello,

I just recently stumbled upon this site on accident. Well, not really; when I asked the Google Gods about CNC they pointed me over here. After browsing the various forums, I decided to make a post myself. So, here it goes...

A little bit about myself: I'm currently enrolled in a program where we are taught both, welding and CNC skills. The welding component of the program is much more extensive then the CNC portion. However, the CNC portion of said program is going to be starting in a few weeks, so I'd thought I register here and hopefully get some answers to a few of my questions.

So, here it goes guys. Hope you won't mind helping this novice out a bit.

1) I was wondering if you could offer any advice/recommendations/observations on what you think would be a better career move, welding or CNC/machinist work? I've heard and read about a supposed welding shortage on the horizon (more opportunity and a brighter future?); I've also been told that the better welding jobs (pipe) are mostly seasonal; that non-union jobs do not pay very much, etc. From the CNC side: Steady work; you are in a shop vs. in the field (weather being an issue for some people. I'm fine with working outdoors); merit shops - your skill set determines your worth vs. rank, nepotism, union politics, etc; maybe a lesser know skill than welding. With the folks over at the AWS sounding the alarm about needing new welders, more people will flock to welding then CNC, leaving more CNC positions available for the skilled.

2) Are there positions in the manufacturing industry where one could use both sets on skills on a job? So far, I really like stick welding. Although I haven't gotten into any of the CNC classes as of yet, I did take CAD 1 & 2, Architectural drafting 1 & 2, and PC repair classes in high school. I kinda have any idea what I will be getting into, but not entirely. I do believe that I will love the CNC portion of the program. What opportunities might be available to someone in a situation like mine.

3) I know developing welding skills outside of the classroom can be difficult. Is it equally as difficult developing CNC skills outside of the class/shop as it is in welding? What can I do on my own (spare/off time) to better my CNC skill set, if anything?

4) Lastly, what are employers looking for when hiring individuals that are new to the profession? Through the program I'm enrolled in, we are going to take (and hopefully pass) a test that leads to a National Institute for Metalworking Skills (NIMS) certification. I understand that certified does not equal qualified, but do you feel this certification will help someone just starting out? What can I do to get my foot in the door of a company that is proactive in the development of their employees? While money is important, I'm really looking for a place that I can really learn alot while at work. Any advice?

Those are some of the questions that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure as soon as I hit the 'submit' button, tons more will come racing to the fore-front of my mind. My CNC classes start in 2 weeks.

Thanks in advance,

Metalmatic

Well I can tell you as a machine shop supervisor, what it is that I look for in a new hire. The applicant must be familiar with most popular controls in shops today, ie Fanuc, Haas, and Mazak. Must be able to pass a written test on cnc setup and operating basics. Must be able to perform a setup on several simple parts and machine it to print specs, this weeds out the book smart, but no common sense types. I once weeded out a potential hire who was gonna run a turned part, he loaded the bar stock and left it sticking about 5ft out of the back of the lathe, can you say whip? A certification is a plus, but I'm gonna hire the guy that can prove he can do the job efficiently and safely. Two years experience in machining is a must if I need someone to hit the floor running, I will train and mentor an individual if they have the smarts and demonstrate the ability to learn and do things right, hey they have to get their experience somewhere and if I need the help and I don't need them up to speed right away I have no problem giving them that experience. There are alot of business's out there that have an in house machine shop to support R&D and product development. The shop I run is actually a department within a company that makes filters for microwave communications, ie cell phone stations, gps sytems, and military communications equipment. The pay is great, and there are lots of opportunities to machine some pretty cool stuff. There are a lot of machinists out there that are self taught, I am one of them, most machine shops will hire based on what you know and what you can do, not always based on # of years in school. Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

[Metalmatic]

Well I can tell you as a machine shop supervisor, what it is that I look for in a new hire. The applicant must be familiar with most popular controls in shops today, ie Fanuc, Haas, and Mazak. Must be able to pass a written test on cnc setup and operating basics. Must be able to perform a setup on several simple parts and machine it to print specs, this weeds out the book smart, but no common sense types. I once weeded out a potential hire who was gonna run a turned part, he loaded the bar stock and left it sticking about 5ft out of the back of the lathe, can you say whip? A certification is a plus, but I'm gonna hire the guy that can prove he can do the job efficiently and safely. Two years experience in machining is a must if I need someone to hit the floor running, I will train and mentor an individual if they have the smarts and demonstrate the ability to learn and do things right, hey they have to get their experience somewhere and if I need the help and I don't need them up to speed right away I have no problem giving them that experience. There are alot of business's out there that have an in house machine shop to support R&D and product development. The shop I run is actually a department within a company that makes filters for microwave communications, ie cell phone stations, gps sytems, and military communications equipment. The pay is great, and there are lots of opportunities to machine some pretty cool stuff. There are a lot of machinists out there that are self taught, I am one of them, most machine shops will hire based on what you know and what you can do, not always based on # of years in school. Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Denyer232, thanks for your input. It is greatly appreciated. The CNC classes that I am about to take are very basic. I'm not 100% sure what machines we will be working on, but I know the length of the entire CNC portion of the program is only 3 months. I'm not really sure how much one can learn in said time frame, but I'll be sure to milk every minute of both classroom and shop time.

From what I understand, alot of guys just starting out do not do a whole lot of machining; they assist in set-up and things of that nature. I'm sure competence needs to be demonstrated before one can move on to the more advance aspects of machining, such as programming. I'm willing to sweep floors and learn things when times are slow or when others are willing to teach.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming guys!

Metalmatic

[JDenyer232]

When I first started doing this I got thrown into it. My company wanted to add cnc milling and turning capabilities for fast turnaround times and reduced costs. They told me to pick the machines I wanted, get some training and start making chips. Our first machine was a Fanuc Robodrill, after they got it set up and running I got 3 days training from the company we bought it from, then they turned me loose. When we aquired our turning center I didn't even get the training as I was already familiar with G-code by this time, and understood how to do the setup. If your motivated and resonably intelligent, you will have no problems learning cnc machining, in the begining there is a lot of trial and error, I recomend keeping a log book of things that you learn by trial and error, that way you will have a reference to look back on. I also recomend that you get a book called CNC Programming Techniques by Peter Smid. Not only does it cover programming but it also covers setups, both simple and complex. It also covers all the different G and M codes and the reasons behind them. There are a lot of resources on the web that can be very informative. G code itself is a very old and easy to use language once you know what the codes are, and the rules behind their use. Every program has a certain structure to it, there is the program beginning, a tool beginning and end for each tool, and the program end. Everything else in between is just motion commands and coordinates. Here is a sample program for a mill so you can see what the structure is. Everything in red is a note to show you what is going on.
% Tape begining
:0801 Program name
(Filename: 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES.tap) Any thing is () are notes for setup
(Post processor: facuc OI-MC post.post)
(Date: 12/31/2008)
G20 (Units: Inches, USE G54 ONLY ORIENT AS PER PRINT)
G00 G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 (Part: 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES)
(Process: Drill 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL, 0.02 inch Deep)
G53 Z0.0 Assure that the Z axis is at machine home
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01 Safety lines, ie cancel codes
G54 Work cordinate being used
(Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL) Tool name
T10 M06 Change to this tool
M03 S5000 Turn on spindle clockwise, 5000rpm
G43 H10 G00 Z1.0 Call up height offset, move to 1" above part
M08 (Flood coolant on) Turn on coolantG00 Z0.1000 Rapid to .100" above part
X2.1500 Y0.1000 Motion commands and coordinates
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200 F10.1
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.6500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200
G00 Z0.1000
X0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0200
G00 Z0.1000
(Process: Drill 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Drill, 0.078 inch diameter 2-56 DRILL, 0.194 inch Deep)
M09 (Coolant off)
M05 Starting at this line are the tool end commands and safety lines
G00 Z1.0 M09
G53 Z0.0
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01
G54 Start of next tool(Drill, 0.078 inch diameter 2-56 DRILL)
T7 M06
M03 S9000
G43 H7 G00 Z1.0
M08 (Flood coolant on)
G00 X0.1000 Y0.1000 Z0.1000
X2.1500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500 F20.1
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.6500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
X0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0500
G00 Z0.0250
Z-0.0303
G01 Z-0.1000
G00 Z-0.0250
Z-0.0803
G01 Z-0.1500
G00 Z-0.0750
Z-0.1303
G01 Z-0.1940
G00 Z0.1000
(Process: Tap 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Rigid tap, 0.086 inch x 56 TPI 2-56 TAP, 0.15 inch Deep)
M09 (Coolant off)
M05
G00 Z1.0 M09
G53 Z0.0
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01
G54
(Rigid tap, 0.086 inch x 56 TPI 2-56 TAP)
T8 M06
G43 H8 G00 Z1.0
M08 (Flood coolant on)
M03 S1000
G00 X0.1000 Y0.1000 Z0.1000
G95
M03
X2.1500
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500 F0.0183
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
M03
Y0.6500
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
M03
X0.1000
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
M03
Y0.1000
Z0.0394
G01 Z-0.1500
M05
M04
Z0.0394
M05
G00 Z0.1000
G94
(Process: Drill 2-56 BOT MOUNT HOLES, Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL, 0.042 inch Deep)
M09 (Coolant off)
M05
G00 Z1.0 M09
G53 Z0.0
G40 G49 G80 G90 G94 M01
G54
(Drill, 0.25 inch diameter CENTER DRILL)
T10 M06
M03 S5000
G43 H10 G00 Z1.0
M08 (Flood coolant on)
G00 X0.1000 Y0.1000 Z0.1000
X2.1500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420 F10.1
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.6500
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420
G00 Z0.1000
X0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420
G00 Z0.1000
Y0.1000
Z0.0197
G01 Z-0.0420
G00 Z0.1000
M09 (Coolant off)
M05
G00 Z1.0
G53 Z0.0 Program end linesM05 G00 G40 G49 G80 G90 G94
M30 Reset program to begining
% Tape end

This was done with a cam system, if I were hand coding it I would use canned cycles to keep things simple and do a lot less programming. Hope this helps you get started, go online and download a list of G and M codes, most are universal among different machine tool builders, but some machines do differ.

[jbt411]

Did a search for NIMS and come up with this thread. This is probably a good thread for newbs like myself.

[Metalmatic]

Did a search for NIMS and come up with this thread. This is probably a good thread for newbs like myself.

Thanks, brother!

We are scheduled to start the CNC portion of the program next Monday. To say your link is timely, would be an understatement!

I plan on keeping those interested, up to date on what's going on in class. I'll be sure to keep asking questions, as well.

Work with me guys! I am here to learn as much as possible.

[cncprofessor]

Hi Metalmatic,

How’s your second week in CNC class going? Hope you’ll find interesting enough to stick around, though, it could be a little overwhelming at the beginning. However, in due time, I am sure you'll find out that the investment of your time and effort were well worth it.

Keep us posted of your progress…

[Metalmatic]

Hi Metalmatic,

How’s your second week in CNC class going? Hope you’ll find interesting enough to stick around, though, it could be a little overwhelming at the beginning. However, in due time, I am sure you'll find out that the investment of your time and effort were well worth it.

Keep us posted of your progress…

Professor, The CNC portion of the class was pushed back a few weeks. The instructor was stricken with the swine flu. Instead of having someone sub the first few weeks of class, the other instructors decided to extend our Basic Stick Welding II and Blue Print Reading classes in order to fill the gap. We are slated to start the CNC portion of the program NOV.16.

I haven't dropped off the face of the earth. I still check this forum every other day or so. There seems to be much more interaction on this board then the Welding forums I visit.

I'm also going to the Fab show here (Chicago) in a few weeks. I'm hoping to learn a lot there as well.

MM

[Chrliev]

Hello Metalmatic,

Thought I would throw my 2cents in for your evaluation.

I have 30+ years in all manner of machining. During my carreer I have done everything from running small lathes and mills to working as a Manufacturing Engineer, programming large 3D parts and set-ups on 5-axis CNC gantry style aircraft milling machines, that are as big as a house.

I wish I had some welding experience, but if I had to choose one over the other it would be CNC machining. Besides the money for someone with 15+ years of experience ($100k+ yearly), CNC programming and machining is cleaner, easier on your hands, eyes and overall health. Designing from a computer allows a full measure of creativity using the latest of technological advances that human kind has to offer and it is rarely boring or repetitive. A new project still excites me and Mondays are always anticipated instead of dreaded.

I didn't necessarily pick this carreer, as you seem to have and I learned this on my own because when I started out there was no schooling available. I have only been to school as an instructor, but I have never been sorry for getting in to it, as every year for as long as I have been in this occupation I have had an opportunity to work with newer and better software and machinery, using the latest and greatest new innovations that human kind has developed.

This is not a slight on welders, because I wish I could weld, but give me a computer and a CNC machine any day...

[Metalmatic]

Hello Metalmatic,

Thought I would throw my 2cents in for your evaluation.

I have 30+ years in all manner of machining. During my carreer I have done everything from running small lathes and mills to working as a Manufacturing Engineer, programming large 3D parts and set-ups on 5-axis CNC gantry style aircraft milling machines, that are as big as a house.

I wish I had some welding experience, but if I had to choose one over the other it would be CNC machining. Besides the money for someone with 15+ years of experience ($100k+ yearly), CNC programming and machining is cleaner, easier on your hands, eyes and overall health. Designing from a computer allows a full measure of creativity using the latest of technological advances that human kind has to offer and it is rarely boring or repetitive. A new project still excites me and Mondays are always anticipated instead of dreaded.

I didn't necessarily pick this carreer, as you seem to have and I learned this on my own because when I started out there was no schooling available. I have only been to school as an instructor, but I have never been sorry for getting in to it, as every year for as long as I have been in this occupation I have had an opportunity to work with newer and better software and machinery, using the latest and greatest new innovations that human kind has developed.

This is not a slight on welders, because I wish I could weld, but give me a computer and a CNC machine any day...

Chrliev, thanks much! That's the type of insight I was hoping to find on some of the forums I frequent.

I'm always open to learning new things. When I was in high school (over 10 years ago) I had taken quite a few CAD and computer-based Architectural Drafting classes. I am also a certified computer repair tech. Now I know that my aforementioned background is not necessarily going to help me in the CNC class, I mention it however, because, I too, love working with computers and technology.

Your points regarding, both, welding and CNC, are well taken. I'm not sure if it's going to be possible, but maybe I can get into a company that will allow me to do a little bit of both!

I'm looking forward to class starting soon. Once it does, I'll post the sylabus for everyone to take a look at. I'll also keep you guys up to date on current projects and how the preparation for NIMS goes. For those interested, I'm scheduled to become a certified stick welder early next spring as well.

Get the comments and suggestions coming guys!

Metalmatic

[Geof]

Here is a suggestion; semi-serious.

For the moment forget the CNC, take up welding and become really good at it. Get pressure welding certification and then you can do pipeline welding and pull in five figure paychecks each month. Develop the knack to do really fancy TIG welding on exotic metals and shapes and you can do the same; not immediately but it is possible.

Of course welding pipelines laying on your back in permafrost up on the tundra gets a bit hard to take as the years go by; also squinting at a TIG arc gets more and more difficult with the years.

Then you switch into CNC and work in a nice warm building and let the machines do it all for you.

Seriously; do both. My apprenticeship as a machinist included not only machining and fitting/millwright work but also electric and gas welding and brazing. MIG and TIG were not common when I served my time but I have picked them up over the years. There are numerous times when the different skills are complementary. Being able to weld up your own fixtures is very handy. Knowing how things can be easily machined is handy working on a weldment. Knowing how the stresses in a weldment may be distributed is handy when you have to machine one. Etc.

[Metalmatic]

Here is a suggestion; semi-serious.

For the moment forget the CNC, take up welding and become really good at it. Get pressure welding certification and then you can do pipeline welding and pull in five figure paychecks each month. Develop the knack to do really fancy TIG welding on exotic metals and shapes and you can do the same; not immediately but it is possible.

Of course welding pipelines laying on your back in permafrost up on the tundra gets a bit hard to take as the years go by; also squinting at a TIG arc gets more and more difficult with the years.

Then you switch into CNC and work in a nice warm building and let the machines do it all for you.

Seriously; do both. My apprenticeship as a machinist included not only machining and fitting/millwright work but also electric and gas welding and brazing. MIG and TIG were not common when I served my time but I have picked them up over the years. There are numerous times when the different skills are complementary. Being able to weld up your own fixtures is very handy. Knowing how things can be easily machined is handy working on a weldment. Knowing how the stresses in a weldment may be distributed is handy when you have to machine one. Etc.

Thanks, Geof!

The program in which I am involved focuses much more on welding than machining. However, the instructors continually remind us that many graduates do go on to be machinists. By the time I complete the entire program, I'll have 4-5 welding certifications and a CNC (NIMS) certification. In fact, I'll have the NIMS by FEB '09 and be certified in stick shortly after.

From talking to people that have been around both industries, one of the biggest gripes typically comes from wages and benefits. The welders I talk to don't like the fact the CNC guys do not have a union (thus weaker benefits, lower pay,etc); the CNC guys don't like the instability involved with new construction (down time, being laid off, having to put your name on a list to be called, etc). Being a neophyte, I tend to do more listening then talking. I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak.

I don't want this thread to be about union vs. non-union (I'm sure there are other threads for that issue). I'm trying to get from "Alpha to Omega" and both programs seem to have interesting paths on how to get there.

Good stuff.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming guys!

Metalmatic

[ImanCarrot]

Nothing against welders or anything, I know a few who make a good living out of it, but when you CAD something then CNC it out of a lump of metal and have it sitting in your hand there is no feeling like it.

"I made that", I'll say to myself.
"And to be honest there's not a lot of others who could have".

The feeling of satisfaction is immense- must be something priomordial, dunno, but it never lessens.

Be warned though, it is addictive

[jgramlich]

The predicted shortage of welders will be difficult for some businesses to handle, but not as difficult as trying to find smart people to run their robots. Welding I look at as a physical skill, robotics is more mental. Not to say that any idiot can pick up a welder and be successful. Quality programs such as ISO9000 and AISC require your welders to be at least somewhat not hare-brained.

Anyways, welding can be done by robots. It's not very cost effective right now to replace human welders with robots, but when the price of a human goes up to $50/hour for shop work, you can be damned sure some smart company is going to come up with a better alternative.

If you ever watch that show on Discovery called How it's Made, you'll see a bit of what I'm talking about. Everything on that show was once done by a human being. What the show does is show off all the automation in factories being done in North America. Reading between the lines, one can easily see the future of manufacturing, robots.

Robots are cheaper, they don't drink, they don't call in sick, they don't sue people when they get injured, OSHA doesn't care if you cut one in half, etc. The biggest thing though is that they are faster. The biggest reason today to replace a human job with a robot is speed. Humans just cannot work at the speed of machines, welding or otherwise.

Welding will be a useful and lucrative skill any way you slice it. If you really enjoy stick-welding, you should wander down to your local Ironworkers union hall and see about taking their tests or whathaveyou. It's outdoors, hard work and good pay when you can get the work. It's also a lot of travelling if you want to do the big stuff, bridges, oil rigs, etc. Such a job, depending on what company or union you get hooked up with, might see you moving every couple of years to follow the big projects around. There are also Ironworker jobs that can be more local. Buildings are always being built in cities, and the local contractors probably keep a few on staff or rotate them through the local jobs at least.

As to robotics, CnC is cool and all, but things change. All industrial robots (99%?) use PLCs and some sort of computer application(usually) that controls those PLCs. If you can write any sort of code, know anything about computer programming, you can probably pick up Gcode easily.

I'm seeing now that robotics and computers are finally hitting the mainstream of manufacturing. Sure, robots have been used for years in factories, but we're really getting to the point in western society where everything that can be made into a robotic/computer controlled process, is being made such. The robotic companies are finally starting to pay attention to data collection, but not as much as I'd like.

Okay, this is getting a little long and ranty. Short version: welding is good and if you like it, do it. You'll find a job as a welder. CNC/robotics is also good and fun and you'll also find a job with it if you're any good at it. I'd really stick to what you enjoy. Not hating getting out of bed every morning is worth more money than I can count.

[wildwestpat]

Hi Metalmatic

As a silver hair retired old codger I can offer you some words of advice that were given to me some fifty years ago by someone I admired as a boss. That was not to get pigeon holed. By that he meant keep your skills covering as wide a field as possible so that when technology or circumstances change you can change with it. The work situation as others have pointed out is constantly changing and as a result the big buks follow the skills shortage. Young blades then step up to the plate and the skills shortage turns into a jobs shortage and the cash starts to fall away. However if you manage to become properly multi skilled then you can survive as you are then able to turn your hand to a lot of different situations. In becoming multi tasked you are then in demand from both the small employer who might like a skilled welder and a CNC geek but can not justify two separate bods. To that employer you would look good all other attributes being OK! Know what I mean no rolling the eyes and gazing at the moon - not that there is anything wrong in that for certain lines of work.

With the rapid changes in jobs and associated skills demands you also need to stay focused on the finer things in life. By that I mean going to bed with a smile on your face and going to work as happy. Unfortunately thee monthly pay check is not the only factor that has an impact on quality of life. I have followed the advice I was given and have allays been employed on jobs that were at worst interesting and at times were the sort of thing where I had to pinch myself that I was not dreaming.

So don't get stuck with the reputation as being a one trick pony and keep learning and if your employer offers assistance to learn new skills take it. Also do not look for job security as it will find you if you keep up to date. Field work is good when young and single but save some for when it no longer has any pull.

Good luck

[Metalmatic]

Hey, guys. It's been a while since I last posted on this forum, but it's for good reason: I JUST started the machining portion of my program! So far the structure of the class in pretty unique - since I just finished up my SMAW portion of the welding program, I can now start machining.

This past Monday was my first day in CNC class. While there is an instructor for the class, the new guys are brought up to speed by the guys that are more advanced (this portion of the program typically lasts 16 -20 weeks) and are near the end of the program. The instructor holds lecture for 2.5-3 hours a day. So far, the instructor holds 2 lectures per day. Depending on the 'shift' you are 'working', will determine when you receive lecture. First shift guys go out into the shop 'till lunch time, while second shift receives lecture in the a.m. Shifts switch positions after lunch. Because I am new, and lectures are currently geared towards the more advanced students working on their piece for the NIMS certification, I've been doing double 'shifts' on the shop floor.

There are quite a few machines in the shop: a CNC HASS Mill and Lathe, CNC Mazak lathe, a manual mill, a punch press, and a small Prolite machine. We are first shown how to use the Prolite. The purpose of this is to get familiar with jogging the machine, setting your indicator, changing tools, setting your PRZ, etc. Once comfortable with the Prolite, we are given the prints to our first part to machine. It's a 3x3x1 inch plate (wax) with 4 holes drilled at specific coordinates on said plate. We 'machined' our block to the specific dimensions using the manual mill. That was pretty cool. It was also the first time I ever used such a machine. After we had our block ready, we had to write the program (absolute and incremental), run it in the simulator, give it a dry run, and then cross our fingers!

Well it worked. Afterwards we machined the same piece, but this time on the HAAS. That's what I did today, with the help of the more advanced students, of course. Everything went well - learned a bit about some of the more subtle codes you need to add to specific blocks amongst other things. Also, the HAAS will not read .NC files, so you have to change the file name - drop the extension - if the software you are using to write a program does in fact, add the said extension.

That about sums up the last 6-7 days of class. There is some carry over from the welding portion (E.G. - metallurgy and blueprint reading) that I'm sure will definitely pay off. Right now, I'm trying to learn as much as possible about the tools and programing capabilities of the HAAS.

We are given handouts from the instructor. There is no assigned textbook for the class. That said, I've requested a book from the library and am awaiting its availability. That said, does anyone have information (PDFs',text files, etc) that they would be willing to share with a neophyte like myself. Aside from the classroom, how can I best utilize my time to develop my CNC skills? So far, I've DL'd the free simulator and have played with that a bit. Does anyone have any basic prints they could send that I could try writing on my simulator at home? Maybe I could post the code afterwards and see what you guys think.

Sorry for novella that is my post. It's been a while and I'm trying to give as much information about the program as possible.

Thanks in advance,

Metalmatic

[cncprofessor]

Hi Metalmatic,

Glad to hear you're still in the program. As for the CNC class, you may want to check this one out - http://www.cncworkshop.com/workshopinfo.htm. I've been using this one, the only CNC-related text with simulation software with my mfg. classes at TSU. The textbook is not best organized but has a lot to offer for both turning and machining ctrs (for $35-$45).

Hope you find it helpful to speed up your learning the CNC programming part.

Take care, and keep us posted…

[JDenyer232]

Metalmatic,

Congrats on getting this far in the course. I highly recommend getting the book CNC Programming Techniques by Peter Smid. This should be available at Borders or an online book store. This book covers both the G-code and setup operations in an easy to understand manner. It also shows you how to use your G54-G59 offsets to machine multiple sides of the part within one promgram. This was the best $60 I spent when I was educating myself. I would love to send you a print, but all of our prints are proprietary and confidential. You could draw up your own print for a part that has pockets with islands in them. This would give you the experience in writing a subprogram using incremental mode to simplify your programming, as well as getting to play around with G02 and G03. Simulators are great tools to verify the tool path, but that's it. They will not tell you if you are gonna crash into the vise due to an improperly set offset. Simulators will not give an idea of tool deflection, or how a given part will machine. Often the first part you make out of a run is called a first article inspection part. This means that if the material you are machining is cheap you just set your offsets and machine it, often this part will not meet dimensional tolerances and will be scraped, but you can make any tweeks to the program or offsets to get the next part to meet dimensions. If the material is expensive and the first part must meet dimension then you just set the offsets like you normally would, and allow a little extra to leave some extra stock, then you just tweek the offsets until the part comes out with the correct dimensions. The Haas control is very nice to work with, I like it better than our Fanuc because I don't have to scroll through softkeys to get where I want. One push of a button and there you go. Try to see if the instructor will let you make a photocopy of the Haas manual. These manuals often have good explanations of the G and M codes used as well as some examples. The Haas website also has these manuals as well as a work book that can be downloaded free of charge. Hope this helps and good luck.

[universalfab]

Welding and machining go hand and hand. That is what I do along with fab with fabrication and they are all tools that go together. The union is $#it them guys come in thinking they know it all and see me come in with older equipment and techniques they've never seen used pushing better results then they ever could get with there new stuff. They are a pain to deal with and a threat to smaller business and thank God there is no machinists union. We don't need no more of them ba$tards. You sound like your on a good road and should have no problem getting far. Welding depending on the welding is dirtier and of coarse more labour intensive and that's why you should do it, because not as many people want to or can do top notch work.

[Metalmatic]

Lots to talk about, guys. I've been VERY busy. Lets get started...

Welding depending on the welding is dirtier and of coarse more labour intensive and that's why you should do it, because not as many people want to or can do top notch work.

That definitely is an advantage. I do think machining is a bit more obscure than welding, tough. What I mean is this: when I first started looking for machine schools in my area, I had trouble just finding a few. In fact, one community college I talked to had a program, but were not offering classes during the fall semester. Another school had totally scraped their machinist program; said they were going to allocate the dollars from said program over to the nursing program. Welding training is somewhat similar, but I do see more places offering training for welding than machining. I know there is a marketing campaign going on trying to recruit more welders. The reasons you mentioned are likely a big deterrent for many young guys fresh out of high school or in their early 20's. Also, many schools have dropped their trade programs due to insurance reasons. One of the biggest votech high schools in my area has recently gone from 'votech' to 'college prep.' This means less exposure to the trades for young people. Even the president of the U.S. wants 'college education for every child.' Where's the plumbers, electricians, machinists and welders going to come from?

I think you may be on to something, universalfab. I think either machining or welding will both have available career paths.

The union is $#it them guys come in thinking they know it all

LOL. This is a reason why I believe I'll ultimately end up doing some machining right out of school rather than welding. I was at the Fabtech show this past November. I had a chance to see a lot of cool toys and meet some new and interesting people. The the local union pipefitters had a booth set up and they were discussing their apprentice program. The two individuals working the booth had to be no older that 22-23 years old. After talking to them for a while, they asked if I was going to apply to their program. I said I was going to think about it, and that I was 'keeping my options open.' In a smarmy tone, one of the guys responded with' what are your options?' They were both 2nd year apprentices. When I asked how often they welded, they told me 'very little, but you can always practice at the hall.' I laughed and told them that I weld 6-8 hours a day and walked away.

I'm not saying that unions are bad. I really wouldn't mind getting into the pipefitters. That said, I tested for them before and scored pretty well. However, they only take a handful of new apprentices a year from an applicant pool of nearly 1,500!

I highly recommend getting the book CNC Programming Techniques by Peter Smid.

This is the book I ordered from the library. I still haven't received it yet. It was due back on the 15th, but it must not have been returned yet. Should have it this week. Lots of good reviews on Amazon for this book.

The Haas control is very nice to work with, I like it better than our Fanuc because I don't have to scroll through softkeys to get where I want. One push of a button and there you go. Try to see if the instructor will let you make a photocopy of the Haas manual. These manuals often have good explanations of the G and M codes used as well as some examples. The Haas website also has these manuals as well as a work book that can be downloaded free of charge. Hope this helps and good luck.

I have DL'ed the HAAS mini-mill manual; that's what are working with over at the shop. I also have another reference manual for HAAS that has proven to be helpful. If you have anymore resources, please let me know. Depending on how far I progress over the next 4 months will determine what machines I actually get to work on. I've graduated from the prolte, am currently working on the HAAS mill, once I machine the part for the NIMS certification and it passes inspection, I can move to the HAAS LAthe; if I can pick that up quickly enough and pass the certification for that machine, there is an older Mazak that we'll get to work with. Most people do not make it past the HAAS Mill in 5 months, though. I think the instructor really wants us comfortable with that machine in particular.

Whew! Here is a brief overview of the last few weeks...

Well, we got to take two field trips - one (spanning 2 days) was over here. The displays that they showed us were amazing. I have some pictures on my phone of some of the end products of their displays; totally amazing. It's insane how versatile a single tool can be. I'll try and upload the pictures at a later date.

We were shown milling techniques, new products, some stuff regarding QA and schooled on tool geometry and various things associated with it. They gave us quite a few cool gifts, too. I wish I was deeper into my program so that I could have benefited even more. The guys giving the presentation were awesome. However, at times, the information they were presenting was very in-depth and spoken in nerd!

While the first trip was more of a workshop, the second trip, over to this place, was more of an open house. There where different people giving speeches about everything from the current state of manufacturing to where the field is going in the next 10 years and beyond. They gave us plenty of information, feed us (really well, I might add) and gave us pointers on how to best start our careers. They also had quite a few of machines on display, including some of their higher-end 5 axis machines (500 tool capacity magazine!) turning some pretty sophisticated parts. Pretty cool.

Lastly, when not on field trips, we spent quite a few days prepping for the NIMS level 1 metalforming certification. The instructor made us go through 4 practice tests - one a day for 4 days straight - before we took the actually online test. Well, I passed that test and am waiting for my certification in the mail. While I know it's only a piece of paper, I feel like I am making head way and learning things every day. I am fortunate to have a few guys in the class that have prior (manual) machining experience that I can come to with any questions. Neither of the two guys are very experienced with computers - something I have a pretty through background in - so they ask me questions regarding the computer. I feel we are exchanging information that's help all of us get better.

We'll, that's it for now guys. Please keep the comments and suggestions coming. They are greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Metalmatic