[Capteod]

Here is a message that shows how bad customer service at TORMACH is.

For the record, Mike Jestis is a small business owner and a competent machinist, he purchased a TORMACH CNC Mill, with accessories and is working in steel. He purchased the tapping head from TORMACH and used the appropriate feeds and speeds supplied in the technical instructions in the literature they supplied. I checked these numbers out with the data published in the 'MACHINNING DATA HANDBOOK' 3rd EDition published by METCUT RESARCH ASSOCIATE in cooperation with the US Government. It is a standard reference data manual which is used in numerous job shops through out the USA.

My personal credentials include 30 years as a journeyman machinist, degreed Mechanical ENGINEER and was the GENERAL MANAGER of a quality aerospace job shop working in HI-RELIABILITY work. I wrote the 4 part article in the DIGITAL MACHINIST Magazine on converting the F1 Mill to modern controls using GECKO DRIVES, SOUND LOGIC CONTROLLER and MACH3.

When mike programmed the machine using the manuals supplied, and used the TORMACH special M871 Self-Reversing Tapping cycle contained in the TORMACH PCNC 1100 manual, (I have personally reviewed the code), the original Tapping head failed, tearing off the anti rotation arm on the tapping head. When he reported this he was sent a replacement head, and tried again.

Mike even went the extra step and submitted his PROGRAM to TORMACH for review and they suggested improvement that he implemented. attached is the code submitted and the changes recommended by TORMACH applications engineering.

Here is the code as written "per their tech document"

n9904100 Y-0.125
n9904101 G04 P5
n9904102 G01 Z-0.600 F17
n9904104 G01 Z-0.7 F99999
N9904105 Z0.150 F29

And here is what they had me change it to (which is the second example from their tech document)

n9904100 Y-0.125
n9904101 G04 P5
n9904102 G01 Z-0.600 F17
n9904104 G04 P2
N9904105 G01 Z0.250 F29


When a new tapping head was replaced in tapping 3 each 3/8-16NC holes it broke 3 taps in three holes. The material is 4130 plate, annealed and BLANCHARD GROUND. The plan was to tap 167 holes and at this rate the cost would be astronomical. The taps were flooded with coolant and running at a conservative feed and speed. S=266 rpm F=0.0625 inches per revolution using g95 modal command.

I suggested using these feeds and Speeds in case the annealling was bad and this is the feeds and speeds for steel with a birnell hardness over 375 BHN.



This is the response he received from TORMACH is a poor indication of service to the customer. Since the original author, BARB STAFFORD thinks that the customer should "GO AWAY" and not report problems with their machine SHE SHOULD GO IF THEY ARE A GOOD BUSINESS.

This indicates a very serious problem with TORMACH SERVICE. It also shows the BS Mentality of this person to leave a smoking gun laying around. She should be FIRED as an incompetent idiot.


---- Original Message -----
From: Barb Stafford
To: Ann Moen ; [email protected]
Cc: Bob Miller
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Tormach Warranty Limit Switch Quotation

Delete after reading! Is this guy ever going t go away? I think he does this to annoy us! I mean come on how in the world can he not know that he needed all of this stuff in the beginning? Geez he orders daily it seems. Not to mention the cash he is wasting on shipping charges! OMG



From: Ann Moen
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Barb Stafford; Bob Miller
Subject: Tormach Warranty Limit Switch Quotation



Hello Michael,



I have attached above a quotation for 2 warranty Limit Switches. I have as shipping the UPS NEXT DAY AIR service. The price listed is the difference between Ground and Next Day Air.



If you would like me to add anything else, just let me know. I will watch for your payment and get these switched out the door as soon as payment is received.

http://www.tormach.com/Product_DirectPayment.html







Thank you,



Ann Moen

Account Manager

Tormach LLC

204 Moravian Valley Rd.

Suite N

Waunakee, Wi 53597

608-849-8381 ext 19

[zephyr9900]

Capteod, maybe someone will actually read your post when you fix the fonts. It is unreadable in its current form.

Randy

[ger21]

I don't think your doing your friend any favors by posting this here.

[zephyr9900]

Gerry, you must have more patience with this stuff than I do. It reminds me of the "forward this to everyone you know!" emails that people send around and I delete without reading. I'm not gonna even try reading it until the poster puts it in a normal font.

Randy

[jalessi]

Capteod,


Could you use a larger font next time, Stevie Wonder can't read your post.


Jeff...

[SlowRiderr]

Capteod,


Could you use a larger font next time, Stevie Wonder can't read your post.


Jeff...

Not too bad on a 32" screen. It is hell on my netbook though.

[Capteod]

I have read the comments, and do not agree. The size of my Font is not the question, the question is what is the function of a MANUFACTURER in the support of their equipment. The implied contract is to support the customer, since they have take the money for the machine and now owe the customer appropriate service. (flame2)

To the moderator I ask who pays your salary, is it TORMACH. You want to make fun of a serious problem, and the size of my font is directly proportional to the anger I have when I see a TORMACH's internal communications which starts with a comment that says:

"Delete after reading! Is this guy ever going t(sic) go away? I think he does this to annoy us!"

What does this say about the writer of this message and the company they work for. I was the General Manager of a company and I know that at times I would feel like the writer.

I would never have allowed this type of message be put on paper. It is unprofessional. What was in the message is the reason for my concern, and this will effect the way I recommend equipment to clients and fellow hobbists.

This message and the wise cracks from people who like to be critics of the anyone who is a messenger of problems shows small minds. When a problem is brought up to the group you should not make fun of the messenger, but, consider the message.

I have forward this communications to "DIGITAL MACHINIST" and asked them to investigate the customer service.

[zephyr9900]

...consider the message.

With respect (I'll give you the benefit of that doubt for now) your message makes no sense at all. What connection does a broken tapping head reaction arm have with limit switches? And why say the customer "not know that he needed all of this stuff in the beginning" if it is a warranty limit switch replacement (implying an unexpected problem)? And this is in a third-hand, unattributable email supposedly originally from Tormach? I smell something, and it is not gunsmoke...

I have owned a Tormach since fall of 2006 and have had nothing but excellent service. And I suspect one or two other actual Tormach owners might have the experience I have had.

I'll agree with Gerry. If your friend has a beef (even perceived beef) with Tormach that is between them until it is worked out.

Randy

[LeeWay]

Most replies here are taking issue with your choice of font. While I waded through it okay and understood what you were trying to accomplish by it, it didn't come across as being very professional as a post. Professional or not, there is at least some etiquette needed when posting things on this forum at least. You font choice wasn't bad, but font size wasn't good. Rebutting the fact that some have issues with the way you posted it is just nonsense. They are forum members and know what and how they like to read stuff. Consider it as professional or at least adept advice from actual real time internet forum members.

Also just an FYI, your resume isn't really needed and detracts a bit from the posts meaning. It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to post to a thread on here, but some do.

Now about the attached email that was obviously not meant for the end receiver. We are all human. We all have opinions, good days and bad. Shame on her for writing that to a co worker. She should be limited to half breaks the rest of the week.

This isn't something that any company can actually regulate. Not even dictators can do that, though they often try. I don't own a Tormach, but I do own some of their tools. I don't think that this is Tormachs policy. They have a history of having great customer service. Now, thanks to you, Barb has a history of having a bad day. Here is to hoping both you and Barb have better days ahead. I also hope the issue gets resolved. It usually does if the majority of posts on here concerning Tormach CS is any indication.

[PoppaBear10]

While true that the email from employees was seen by the customer. I have done some field service work for Tormach, and, as a Non-Biased third party. I witnessed them bend over backwards, several times, at great expence to satisfy the customer they sent me out on, to fix thier machine. They DEFINATLY lost any profit they made on that machine to that customer in just back and forth shipping charges alone.

I was VERY impressed that both Greg and Matt, Really, Really tried above and beyond, including taking the machine back and refunding. Even after the machine was fixed and working perfectly, the customer was STILL gripping about the whole deal. Some people you can't make happy.

I suspect that the management at Tormach, has totally chastized the Employee in question. Small companies live and die on customer service, so, I doubt that person will ever again, send a email like that (at least in public).

Your Taps and the Tapping macros: Understand this, Mach 3 does NOT have Spindle/Z synching, the Macro just mathmatically approximates for that lack. But you cannot program in a hard coded macro that will take into account Acceleration and Deceleration of a motor under different tapping loads.

Scott

[300sniper]

it sounds to me like mike must have been a major pain in the ass. the way you wrote your original post makes me think you are just as much of a pain in the ass as he must have been. if you want to rewrite it using a regular font/size and include only what is important to the subject at hand, maybe then you will get some sympathy.

[philbur]

The original post seems like a bit a ramble, especially for a Degreed Mechanical Engineer. It appears that he's finding taping a bit of a challenge. Aren't we all? Is he implying it is the fault of Tormach, it's not clear. The second part relates to an apparently unrelated, unfortunate distribution of an internal, off the cuff whinge about repeated daily orders for parts etc. Presumably Barb has to pack and ship it all. But hey Barb that's what you are paid for doing, chastisement complete.

On the first point, he might make better progress if he were to ask for help on this forum. It's not Tormach's business to teach it's customers how to use their machines, unless of course they have paid for that service. This is not just my opinion, it says so in the documentation. On the second point, naughty Barb, but sometimes off the cuff comments have a tendency to get loose on you with these new fangled technologies (e-mails). No big deal really!

Seems like pretty much a do about nothing. I think 6 point Ariel would have been a better choice. Some of you guys should look into getting out a bit more.

Phil

[zephyr9900]

To the moderator I ask who pays your salary, is it TORMACH

I may need to reinstate my "clueless" comment. This is an open discussion forum not connected with Tormach, and I wasn't aware that JRouche (the moderator) was a Tormach employee. If you can disprove either of those, I'll apply the "clueless" label to myself. (How's that for fairness?)

Randy

[R.DesJardin]

I have to repeat what's already been said, Tormach has been #1 in my experience with customer relations. Trying to tap 4140 is never easy.
Oh, yeah I'm a card carrying journeyman machinist, and I have an AA Mech. Eng degree, and work as a Sr. R&D Engineering Tech. I don't think pedigrees give any credit to ones skills.

[norvil1]

there is no one on this forum that likes to ***** about poor service more than me, if you don't believe me see the shoptask forums. with that said i have had a tormach for over a year
and i have had tormach bend over backward to help me with my problems, all i can say is i would still buy another one in a heartbeat. if you will just be calm they will get this straighten out, or you can take your ball and go home.

[smallblock]

I have to repeat what's already been said, Tormach has been #1 in my experience with customer relations. Trying to tap 4140 is never easy.
Oh, yeah I'm a card carrying journeyman machinist, and I have an AA Mech. Eng degree, and work as a Sr. R&D Engineering Tech. I don't think pedigrees give any credit to ones skills.

I agree, there are 1 or 2 of these guys on every forum- most reasonable people recognize them for what they are.

[ger21]

I may need to reinstate my "clueless" comment. This is an open discussion forum not connected with Tormach, and I wasn't aware that JRouche (the moderator) was a Tormach employee.

I think he meant me. And I do this for free. And the pleasure of babysitting threads where people go on rants.

[norvil1]

"pleasure of babysitting threads where people go on rants."

if you want to hear rants, let me tell you about shoptask.

[zephyr9900]

I think he meant me.

Oops, sorry, Gerry! I didn't realize that. (Doh, now I notice that it says "Community Moderator" under your name...) I was going by the listings on the index page. Thank you, by the way, for your moderating.

Randy

[BlueFin]

This post is for the benefit of any potential Tormach customers out there, bought my Tormach a year ago, had a few minor problems over the first 6 months, Tormach bent over backwards with support and flying parts around on airplanes. I am not any kind of machinist at all but within 4 months I was manufacturing full assemblies with great results every time. Every mistake the machine has made was my fault, they can only do what they are told to do.

A G00 Z-36.000 is gunna be Oh Crap!