[DoctorX]

I have removed my response.

[DoctorX]

My guess is that you're 15 years old because no adult would have asked a question like this. If so, welcome to the board but think your questions out a little more before posting please.

Regardless of the nature of my original question, that comment was uncalled for. Your earlier comments prior to this statement were perfectly adequate, and clearly understood.

Thanks for your 'input'.

[roninB4]

If my comments offended you then I'll apologize for hurting your feelings. Do bear in mind that machine shops (and internet sites that are populated by them) are not for the meek, nor the thin skinned. In a format such as this there isn't the opportunity to see you in person, weigh the tone of your voice, and estimate the intentions of your questions. So I have to make assumptions based upon the words you choose. If you've understood the contents of this thread then it should come as no surprise that I questions the intent of someone with no shop experience asking quesions like yours. Do stay, read, and learn what you wish to know about metal working. Grow a set and harden up a bit, we had to.

[slowlearner]

I thank the contributors of this thread for posting my sentiments.
Although I am not a diemaker I am however a patternmaker.
I have owned a job shop now for 20+ years. I feel that the companies
that can continue to survive will become profitable in the future.
No, most of the tooling is not made the same way as it used to be.
Why? Skilled labor is nonexistent and our goverment is to blame.

[kwhizz]

Hope and Change.....................................LOL

[marine1775]

Great Post guys. I have really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. I am a Journeyman Toolmaker in North Carolina. I also have 15 plus years and I started my apprenticeship on a Bridgeport and horizontal saw sawing and squaring up material for Journeyman Toolmakers. I feel the trade has evolved from just building dies and molds too doing everything from CNC programming to the Engineering Tech. side of designing and building custom automated production machines. I also teach machining technology at a local community college at night. It is only a certificate program. The college has a mindset that you guys talk about here. They don't understand what a toolmaker or machinist are capable of. Last year they tried to give me a student that was legally blind!!!

At the same token I went on a job interview a couple of weeks ago and was interviewed by a Mech. Engineer and a Value Stream Manager. They wanted a CNC Programmer, someone that could program PLC's, be a supervisor, design and build jigs and fixtures, and offer advice on improving the processes and also take on the maintenance division after a couple of months. All of for a whopping $45,000 a year. Oh I almost forgot the Value Stream Manager made a comment that really turned me off. He said that "he spends the majority of his time dealing with bad relationships between his employees".

I guess my point is that I don't think that allot of the white collars in our country that are in our industry don't know themselves what they need or even how to go about finding what they need.

U.S. Dept of Labor states that there were 84,300 tool and die makers in 2008. Compare that number to engineers!

My Dad was a Toolmaker, my older brother is a Toolmaker, so therefore I became a Toolmaker.

Hope everyone had a happy holiday season!!

Russ

[roninB4]

Thanks for posting Marine, your story is all too familiar to many of us. Companies are now looking for a bargain, a chance to cut several job positions by hiring just one person. That's all fine and well, we'd all like to cut expenses if we could. But the wages they offer for just ONE skill set are on par for 1979 and they expect to get the other skill sets for free. Some companies will even hire you in just to fix an existing problem or extract whatever knowledge you have before disposing of you and hiring the next unsuspecting candidate. On interviews I've been asked for solutions to problems before I was even hired. I never got anything extra for solving problems but I'll bet the supervisor who took my ideas did. At the company I currently work for there's been several newly minted engineers hired lately and they don't seem to expect them to work for 1979 wages. Guard your knowledge, they aren't going to compensate you for all your skills because we're just blue collar grunts. If we were smart we would have gone to college like those that interview us. I've seen job postings for die makers that require a college degree to apply. Wonder who made that stipulation in the ad? Things are rough here in southeastern Tennessee, hope things are better for you in N. Carolina.

[SPEEDRE]

Some of us have been disenfranchised for years. Lack of industry innovation and, future craftsman needs, i.e. apprenticeships, has hobbled the industrial idiots. Money has been the new intelligence in this land and knowledge, and experience has become outdated and redundant. I am a Journeyman Master Pattern Maker who hes been lost in this new world order since 1999, so I can speak from experience and knowledge. I feel that we as an industrial county have not really made, or engineered and produced, anything new and innovating on home ground for too long now. I have a foreboding it will not do anything like that again in our short lifetimes that we have left. My .02 cts. only. Thanks

[roninB4]

Some of us have been disenfranchised for years. Lack of industry innovation and, future craftsman needs, i.e. apprenticeships, has hobbled the industrial idiots. Money has been the new intelligence in this land and knowledge, and experience has become outdated and redundant. I am a Journeyman Master Pattern Maker who hes been lost in this new world order since 1999, so I can speak from experience and knowledge. I feel that we as an industrial county have not really made, or engineered and produced, anything new and innovating on home ground for too long now. I have a foreboding it will not do anything like that again in our short lifetimes that we have left. My .02 cts. only. Thanks

-I think that it's tougher to create something innovative that's not electronic, the mechanical wonders from when we started in the trades have been left behind. Sometimes that's been a good thing. Anything in the way of new technology has been taken to the third world for cheaper operating costs. In 1970 did anybody really believe that Korea would produce autos that would compete in the marketplace? I can recall when "Made In Japan" meant cheap crap, not the world class producers we know today. How did China gain a death grip on manufactured goods? The race to cash in on greater profits set them up with the hardware and knowledge to run it until they decided that they could do it for themselves. Sure, the third world would have caught on but I doubt it would have happened as fast as it did without the West handing it to them. That's partly what this thread has been about, guarding the only valuable commodity we have left (knowledge). We can't turn back the clock or undo what has been done but we can certainly choose who we help. We're down but not out Speedre, we have to prepare the next generation for the future because they have no one else but us. Hope things are well for you and yours. Next beverage is on me.

[aarggh]

From a non-U.S. centric view, it seems to me that the once massive manufacturing and IP pool of the U.S. lost probably more than any country when it came to out-sourcing products in the never ending quest for more and more short term gains and profits, and yet other countries are to this day following suit. And has there been a shift in the U.S. with regards to bringing back large scale manufacturing, not that I've seen? Companies appear to be unwilling to invest substantial amounts of money for what would be a long term project. So they transfer the IP to China or Tawian, to have their products made cheaply, all the profit, without the risk. Except of course the potential theft of IP, copy-cat products, and the absolute dependence created.

It's truly sad to see the style of management with 1 to 3 month profit tunnel vision, no investment for the future, no building a dynamic loyal and skilled workforce, instead, profits must be higher and higher, and returns are measured in weeks and months. So it's no wonder that this environment is unsustainable in the long term unless you back a sure winner. But not many take that risk.

In the meantime the Asian countries just quietly got the job done, with barely any labour costs, and the minimum of processes, building their skills and processes as they went along, offering very cheap services to the rest of the world.

One of my first jobs was in an engineering firm many years ago, but I strongly suspect they would find it difficult here nowadays to not only find people willing to do the horribly mundane work I was doing at the time, but to get them and do it at a price that allowed the mandatory 5000% profit. (sarcasm intended).

Lot's of money is nice, and no-one complains about a pay rise, but I think if there was a little more investment in creating loyal and skilled employees, and less emphasis on massively huge profits on small quantities, it could only create a better market. In my opinion nothing much these days is such a niche market that almost anyone else or any other company couldn't do it cheaper, better, faster, or all three.

I don't see this as anything specific to just this industry, as it seems this is the way all industries led by the current wave of bean counter management are going.

cheers,
Ian

[roninB4]

It's truly sad to see the style of management with 1 to 3 month profit tunnel vision, no investment for the future, no building a dynamic loyal and skilled workforce, instead, profits must be higher and higher, and returns are measured in weeks and months.

cheers,
Ian

Although I've only quoted part of your post I fully agree with what you've written (typed). I wrote about my trade in my country because I cannot speak with any real knowledge about anywhere but here. Yes, this can apply to many industries and many countries, a pity they choose to follow the example of our failure. Europe and the USA chose to give away manufacturing to the Asians in the 80's and now lament that their economy is in dire straits, not hard to figure out why. I know of no country doing well that is a service based economy. I would hope that things will change but doubt that it will happen soon. I hope you folks in OZ are fairing better than we are. Thanks for posting Ian.

[aarggh]

Thanks. It is sad but I think most countries, apart from some of the cleverer and adaptable Asian ones, are already either heading down or are well down that path now. Just today on Slashdot this pertinent article appeared.

"U.S. companies are locating more of their R&D operations overseas, and Asian countries are rapidly increasing investments in their own science and technology economies, the National Science Board said in a report released this week. The number of overseas researchers employed by U.S. multinationals nearly doubled from 138,000 in 2004 to 267,000 in 2009, for example. On the education front, the U.S. accounts for just 4% of undergraduate engineering degrees awarded globally, compared to China (34%), Japan (5%), and India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand (17% collectively). 'The low U.S. share of global engineering degrees in recent years is striking; well above half of all such degrees are awarded in Asia,' NSB said in its report."

We’ve also lost major R&D sectors over here too, but if you don’t have R&D, what do you have?

Cheers,
Ian

[easymike29]

Some of us have been disenfranchised for years. Lack of industry innovation and, future craftsman needs, i.e. apprenticeships, has hobbled the industrial idiots. Money has been the new intelligence in this land and knowledge, and experience has become outdated and redundant. I am a Journeyman Master Pattern Maker who hes been lost in this new world order since 1999, so I can speak from experience and knowledge. I feel that we as an industrial county have not really made, or engineered and produced, anything new and innovating on home ground for too long now. I have a foreboding it will not do anything like that again in our short lifetimes that we have left. My .02 cts. only. Thanks

You probably mean .02 dollars.

Gene

[kwhizz]

Just a little update on personal experience.........we just bought 4 new surface grinders for the shop.....We were replacing American machines that had served us well for twenty years......(The manufacturer is out of business).....the new machines are made offshore....we had them installed 4 weeks ago and there is major problems with three of them......they are going to repair or replace them.......waiting for the Factory rep to make that decision..........We also just bought a Chinese made Magna-sine.....LOL.......What a piece of Junk........The only thing that's any good is the fine pole magnet works,.....Nothing was square or parallel.....guaranteed to be with in .0002.....LOL.........between the back base surface and the center line of the pivot pin there was .024 error......so the angle plane was way out........one of our guys spent a day fixing this piece of garbage..........and these guy's are taking our work away.....what a joke!!...........
Ended up buying another used U.S. made unit (Can't find anything made here anymore) and it's 100 times better than this China-Junk.......

[roninB4]

During the 80's there were a lot of people clamoring for the US to become a "sercice economy" and that we didn't need those dirty old "smokestack industries". During the 90's was the rush, by business people, to outsource everything manufactured. The claim was that there would be greater profits an the consumer would get a lower price, "That's win/win for everybody" they all said. So we gave away our manufacturing, sold off all the machinery, and can't understand why our economy has tanked and the marketplace is filled with shoddy goods. The youger generations have no idea how to make anything because working with your hands was somehow associated with a room temperature IQ and murky family genetics. Now there are ads on television saying we should make "real things" because that would be good for America. There are talking heads flatly stating that there are higher tech jobs out there, like CNC, they're unable to fill due to a lack of trained people. They don't tell anybody that those CNC jobs are paying 16$ per hour and experienced programer/operators won't work for low wages like that. I've been asked for a bachelors degree to qualify for a job on night shift doing die maintenance.

Return to topic. Not to knock one single culture but the Chinese do make some horrible crap and cut corners in the oddest places. I happen to have 3 small Chinese made metal working machines from a name brand mfg. They all utilize shoddy plastic drive gears that will explode with any real use. Gee I would have paid an extra 10$ to get a metal spur gear that would have been durable. Instead they substituted material, made an extra dollar in profit, and left a customer saying bad things about their products. I'm buying machinery for a shop I'm starting up and I will not purchase Chinese made products if I can help it. This is not because I have a cultural dislike for the Chinese, it's because they make shoddy, inferior products. I've already purchased an older iron surface grinder and I'm shopping for an older lathe rather than buy new Chinese iron and wonder where they cheated the design integrity. I once dated a Chinese national and she flatly told me "Don't trust a Chinese businessman". I asked her if she was being a bit harsh, these were her own countrymen. She said "That's why I say don't trust them, I know them well". When I worked for Denso Automotive purchasing injection molds from China there was a standing set of procedures to avoid bad construction methods, material substitution, and poor tolerances from the Chinese mold makers. There are many things about Chinese culture that I greatly admire, their manufacturing methods is not one of those. They don't take our jobs so much as the business weenies give them away and our political "leaders" allow other cultures to sell goods here made by slave/child labor, a floated currency, and subsidized shipping.

To those that helped steer this country in the 80's & 90's, how's that "service economy" thing working out for the rest of us?

Hope everybody is doing well this holiday season.