[roninB4]

I'd like to start by stating how valuable a board like this is. It's a means of exchanging info that comes from untold decades of experience from the collective member body. When I first started in the trade the only source of info was older diemakers, books, and your own experiences. Now there's a ready tap of info at your fingertips from a huge variety of stamping applications that you can get advice from. I think it's just great that all the contributing members are willing to offer hard won experience that free for the asking.

I was a tool and die maker for over 20 years, it seemed as though the work would never dry up and one could retire after 20 years but continue working in a home shop set-up for as long as one wished to. We thought the work would always be there. I'm not interested in a debate as to why things changed. If you were there working through the 80's then you know why we fell from grace. I do miss being able to pick up work in just a few hours/phone calls but that's not what this thread is about either.

The wages being paid for precision toolmaking were never enough to make you rich (if working for someone else) but they were enough to provide a comfortable living. If you've been watching the prevailing wage then you must have noticed that it's been dropping like a stone. The marketplace seems to be offering a wage that hasn't been seen since 1979. I'm not here to debate the merits of this either because this is the result of how the economy got here in the first place.

All the work was outsourced to places that didn't have to pay as much to the workers. Cheaper labor has been the mantra of business people for decades. Yet I find it curious that those that sought cheaper labor abroad will still seek out advice from those that have been in the trade for decades. They want cheap labor but also want free advice from experienced craftsmen on how to do things. I get free advice from boards on things I don't know, I certainly don't know everything either. That's why I come here, to learn. But some of the questions here just have the distinct aroma of someone that's never been in a shop yet is asking for advice on how to make money by using the experience they weren't willing to pay you for to begin with. I certainly don't mind helping someone new in the trade, I was an apprentice once too. Shop owners that have come up through the ranks have my respect too, they earned the right to ask through the hard work it takes to run a shop. But somebody that's not in the trades is asking me to give away the one thing left in the country, the knowledge that comes from decades of experience. I think our trade has been undermined by people that didn't do the work or were seeking to gain something they didn't earn. How many times have you done prototype work for cheap/free with the empty promise of more work that never shows up? Ever seen your development work go offshore? We have helped neighbors that aren't willing to help us in return and I'm just not willing to give it away any longer. Nothing personal, it's just business isn't it? Stop helping those that aren't willing to help you in return, no matter what country they're from.

[Die61]

Ronin,

Good post, I agree with most of your comments.
Die maker here since late 70's, owned 2 shops, freelance die designed for 12 years.
As per the dinosaur handle, & the pattern makers before us......it was inevitable!
Tool shops have searched for a means to reduce their largest expense, labour, since way before I was in the trade.
CNC's & solid modeling did it for them/us.
Unfortunately it also reduced the level of shop floor skill, & the # of die makers required to complete a given project.
I learned to build dies from pencil drawings and manual machines. As you well know that level of skill is NOT required in modern tool shops utilizing CNC milling, wire/laser cutting, etc.
My die makers earned 100K + per year back in the early 90's when we just started to implement CNC's, & as a shop we were extremely profitable (+40% net).
As you also know, tooling prices have plummeted in the past 10 years forcing the shops to find further means to reduce their costs. I know of some die shops who take full advantage of the times & out source all the machine work, only to assemble & prove the tool.
Just my .02!
:cheers:
Paul

[roninB4]

How-D Paul
Thanks for your kind comments and posting your own point of view, anything that begins talk amongst ourselves is better than silent acceptance of a trade that was once belonged to all of us. I don't always agree wholeheartedly with my own opinions either. Complex situations are seldom solved with simple answers and I certainly don't understand all of the factors involved. Your timeline means you were there at the same time I was and I respect the years you've put in.

I do feel that the word inevitable suggests (maybe semantics at work here) that fate is responsible for the decline of the trade, as though it was an unavoidable consequence. When you hit Rapid Travel without retracting the spindle enough it's also inevitable that the machine crashed. However, much like bad trade policies, this could have been avoided by paying more attention to the consequence of your actions. I think that the pattern makers who evolved still found employment, I worked with a few of them. Those that did not evolve experienced more difficult times. So evolution/change, if accepted as a natural course, could benefit those that choose to adapt with (instead of react to). I don't regard the third world workplace/wages as a natural progression, it seems more akin to some of the shameful standards and incidents of the industrial revolution. Globalization was/is a matter that was bound to happen as technology advanced. But much like the machine crash, it didn't have to end up the results we have.

I'm not a Luddite and feel that technology has been a great benefit in some areas. I haven't ground in the cutting profile on a split die bushing in a long time, wire EDM has granted me freedom from this. The VMC has also liberated me from poking all the mounting/clearance holes in the die set. Jig grinding a profile in a die section happens much quicker with the wire (although I sorta miss the old Moore...). Design and the inescapeable engineering changes happen more efficiently from technology too. No more waiting for prints to be drawn by hand or hours of calculations to arrive at a design decision. I've been using CAD for over 10 years and I find it to be a powerful and capable tool in design.

No, the thrust of my poorly worded post is aimed at those that fed off the industry we all built. The people that did the work, whether out in the shop or in the office were the ones that took the brunt of the storm. Those that were just along for the ride left the trade in pursuit of greener pastures just before the collapse of the industry. I was raised to think that you work hard to get ahead in life. I think there's quite a few that undeservedly profit from the efforts of others and that this is symptomatic of a much larger problem. I was suggesting that we could all begin to evaluate what little is still within our control in the machine tool trades and to choose our actions carefully.

I'm all in favor of outsourcing, so long as EVERYBODY's job is on the line and it's a level playing field, otherwise it's a stick used by the few to beat others into submission. I've worked with factory people from all over the world and find that we all chew the same problems most of the time. I also find that those with a sense of entitlement are similar regardless of nationality and expect disproportionate compensation.

I have to go feed horses now, I hope this message finds you all well today.

Ronin,

Good post, I agree with most of your comments.
Die maker here since late 70's, owned 2 shops, freelance die designed for 12 years.
As per the dinosaur handle, & the pattern makers before us......it was inevitable!
Tool shops have searched for a means to reduce their largest expense, labour, since way before I was in the trade.
CNC's & solid modeling did it for them/us.
Unfortunately it also reduced the level of shop floor skill, & the # of die makers required to complete a given project.
I learned to build dies from pencil drawings and manual machines. As you well know that level of skill is NOT required in modern tool shops utilizing CNC milling, wire/laser cutting, etc.
My die makers earned 100K + per year back in the early 90's when we just started to implement CNC's, & as a shop we were extremely profitable (+40% net).
As you also know, tooling prices have plummeted in the past 10 years forcing the shops to find further means to reduce their costs. I know of some die shops who take full advantage of the times & out source all the machine work, only to assemble & prove the tool.
Just my .02!
:cheers:
Paul

[Die61]

Hey Ronin,

Thanks for your educated opinion & your kind words.
Always nice to converse with someone else who's been there...done that!
I might say that the shop I mentioned, which is currently outsourcing their die machining, is my old business. If it's any consolation, the outsourcing is local not offshore.
I still have a few items from one of the old Moore jig grinders which I spent many an hour on over the years. They were a great machine and like my buddy say's, "So easy it was as if a tenth was a thick as a side of beef" !
Funny you mention form grinding, unlike a lot of shops in the pre-wire days, we form ground all of our die steels & punches.
Re. the inevitable demise of skill in our trade.
You're right that evolution is partly to blame BUT, someone NEEDS to explain to me why our illustrious governments could not have placed a "North American ONLY built tooling" condition on the bail out cash which they threw around like candy??
I spoke recently with the GM of one of the largest die shops in North America.
They're pursuing "super plastic forming processes" in which a super heated blank is die formed and cooled before the press opens. I was told that our industry has approx. 5 years of life remaining unless new processes are developed.
One final thing I'd like to mention, for the poor saps who're reading this(!), re. solids design & cnc'd die builds.
Diemakers who possessed the skills to calculate, manually machine, & build large & complex prog. dies from pencil drawn designs (in a job shop environment) were, in my opinion, the highest skilled & respected tradesmen in any of the trades.
Take care.
Paul

[roninB4]

Always nice to converse with someone else who's been there...done that!
-It is indeed, perhaps that would explain our similar conclusions.


I might say that the shop I mentioned, which is currently outsourcing their die machining, is my old business. If it's any consolation, the outsourcing is local not offshore.
-Nothing wrong with spreading the work around your local, it's difficult to do every operation in house. You at least sub'ed out the work to your area and helped your neighbor. One of the larger mold shops in the Chicago area was going bankrupt after 3 generations of making transmission die cast molds for the OEM auto makers. I fet bad for him until I heard he was making the rounds at all the other mold shops pimping for the Chinese. I sympathize for a failing business but you don't go cutting the throats of every other mold/die maker in the area just so you can live well. You helped your neighbor and that's what I was talking about in my first post.


They were a great machine and like my buddy say's, "So easy it was as if a tenth was a thick as a side of beef" !
-And now these wonderful machines are sold for scrap iron value.....

Funny you mention form grinding, unlike a lot of shops in the pre-wire days, we form ground all of our die steels & punches.
-I once worked at a stamping house that thought it was acceptable to sharpen a punch by facing it on a lathe, they didn't want to spend the money on grinding wheels. I didn't remain there long and doubt they did either.


You're right that evolution is partly to blame BUT, someone NEEDS to explain to me why our illustrious governments could not have placed a "North American ONLY built tooling" condition on the bail out cash which they threw around like candy??
-If you've spent the last 10 years as a lawmaker investing in the third world it's not surprising to find that trade flows so easily to/from there. It didn't just turn out that way, when you follow the money the answer becomes easier to understand. Someone once remarked that politics is the second oldest profession and closely resembles the first. Are you held accountable for the work you do? Why should a public official be any different? We've all been sold downriver by those that were elected/appointed to sheppard the public.


I spoke recently with the GM of one of the largest die shops in North America.
They're pursuing "super plastic forming processes" in which a super heated blank is die formed and cooled before the press opens. I was told that our industry has approx. 5 years of life remaining unless new processes are developed.
-Interesting new process, we'll develop the technology here in the West and then export the whole process to cheaper labor markets like we've done with everything else that allowed North America to be at the forefront. We send the technology offshore in pursuit of greater profits and are left with nothing. Sort of reminds me of doing the prototype work for cheap, expecting the bigger numbers promised later, only to see the prototype taken elsewhere for the production run. Haven't we seen this before by the same types?

One final thing I'd like to mention, for the poor saps who're reading this(!), re. solids design & cnc'd die builds.
Diemakers who possessed the skills to calculate, manually machine, & build large & complex prog. dies from pencil drawn designs (in a job shop environment) were, in my opinion, the highest skilled & respected tradesmen in any of the trades.
-I'm inclined to agree with the "skilled" half of that statement. I don't think we've ever been respected by anybody except other metal workers. Most people have no idea what we do/did. Ever chase .0001 on a die block all day and go home wanting to tell the wife/girlfreind how you held tolerance? Was she impressed? Did anybody at the bar slap you on the back and buy you a drink? Or did you get the blank stare and a "Gee that's nice"? That's one of the reasons why the other trades saw their wages increase while we struggled to get another .25 cent raise every year. I don't think the average person understands what or even why we chose this as a career. I still make things for others now and then and most of the time they have no appreciation for what it took to create the part. This is made clear when they don't understand why it took so long to make the part (Aren't you done yet?). A brick wall is easily understood (not easily made), a machined part that interacts with other parts isn't understood as well by the general public. If they don't understand the part they certainly won't understand why you want so much money to create it. If you can't impress those close to you what chance did we have of impressing the general public? No I'm going to have to contend that the dirty shoes, smelly clothing, and grit under our fingernails just made us look like slobs in the eyes of the general public and so we didn't deserve any more respect than we got. Even the office people in machine shops didn't regard us very highly did they? The work was dirty, dangerous, and demanded your full attention every moment of your shift. All of you have my respect but I doubt it will come from an "outsider".

-I hope things will turn around but it's not likely they will until the lawmakers can make a killing on the domestic front.

Take care.
-Good talking/typing with you Paul. I wish you good luck, we're all going to need it.

-Maurey

[airpro_1]

WOW! I REALLY wish I would have seen this post earlier, I would have loved to get in on this with you guys. I have to fully agree with these post's. Although I am "new blood" to this profession. I have been machining for the last 15 years and absolutely LOVE IT!! I started pressing buttons and babysitting machines but taught myself GM programming and could take (almost)any program (Those 3D surfaces need my CAM-he he!) on our shop floor and adjust to blueprint specs if needed. When i first started no one wanted to teach me, everyone said oh....it's too hard and would take too long for them to do that. So...I looked around my area and found several "old Skool" guys and they taught me. I have several friends who have been retired (a couple twice!) and still come to their shops everyday and I visit them whenever I have questions about how to do something. I could and have sat around and talked shop for many hours with these guys. Now I do all of our jig/fixture, mold and production design.

I like my CNC's but I tell ya to take a dividing head and some manual tools (Lathe, Mill, grinders, etc.) and make something out of a block of steel or aluminum. Man..... to me there's nothing as satisfying as that. And to me it's ART

I have been guest lecturing at our local University for the last 5 years and am currently writing a book on Design for Manufacture and Injection Molding which will be used as text at the university for MET classes. It's amazing to see how far behind some of the classes are at University level or the lack of actual manufacturing knowledge.

I am only 37 and I plan to do this until I can't hold a wrench anymore. My goal is to start my own training center for those who want to learn and to continue working with the University and hopefully get into some Community Colleges to help teach the future of our industry. I believe that there is a great future for us and NOTHING beats American Ingenuity. We have always set the standard and I can't believe that we will stop anytime soon.

In my opinion outsourced work done overseas is inferrior and in many case has to be reworked or brought back to the US to maintain standards. While labor is cheaper overseas...most times you get what you pay for. This is a conversation that keeps coming up around here. My friends in other manufacturing companies have had business taken away because it was "cheaper" to go overseas only to get the job back after the company spent way to much money and time trying to get their parts to spec only to find that they are over budget and need to bring it back. Which is nice for us here because when that happens we get the rework as well as the new contract with a healthy markup in price.

What bothers me is the office guys who run the operations who have "SAVED MONEY" for their companies by going overseas, they get these giant bonuses and retirement packages but none of that has to be repaid when the job doesn't work out and the work has to be brought back here to the states. Then guys like us in the shop are taking on the new work we took on to makeup for the lost work and adding the rework and new contracts while still having to prove to our bosses that we need that 25 cent raise. I know of many places where if the skilled labor (Not button pushers or baby-sitters) left their jobs the companies they work for would be in a world of hurt. There used to be loyalty to the company you worked for because they would watch out for you now that doesn't happen anymore and so we leave and start our own companies. Many places believe that since they have CNC they don't need us "experienced" guys around because the machine will do it. Only to find out that it's alittle more complicated than just pointing to a machine and saying get it done.

I know I've jumped around in this post (My A.D.D. kicking in) ha ha just wanted to post my two cents.....
Thanks,
Larry

[roninB4]

Larry;
Thanks for checking in. You may be only 37 but it sounds as though you have an opinion you earned. I agree with the many things you wrote (many of us have ADD so we followed along with you) but am most uncertain about the future of American manufacturing. Like many other facets of our country, we're in the ditch because of those doing the driving that have no personal stake/risk in the venture. This is why I advocated helping only those that do/will help us in return and flush out the parasites that are looking out for their own interests.

I just read a thread about someone that tried fly cutting with an unground HSS tool blank and couldn't understand why it wasn't cutting well. I'm not knocking the guy, just pointing out that even basic machining concepts aren't common knowledge. So if you're out there teaching the next generation, you're needed badly.

I wish you continued success in your endeavors.

[cnctoolman]

I have been a Tool & Diemaker for the past 15yrs. My opinion is the wages will not start to increase because in larger companies we are the overhead. Plain and simple. I get alot of the " we have to pay you to be here" syndrome, and they quote jobs without making hardly any profit to support us. Let's quote it at $20 and hour. OK well how are we going to pay for the consumables that we use.

I did my apprenticeship under the older toolmakers, where you learned everything by hand before you moved on to CNC and CAD. Spent many a day grinding in mold sections to fit, with forms and profiles. I was lucky enough to start out in a shop were I learned stamping, draw dies, plastic injection moulding. And lucky enough aswell to have owners who started the business and new what it took to manufacture what was needed. Then got sold to bean counters and the rest went down hill. So I moved on, now doing prog dies and die casting dies. And I love a wire machine that I have learned to program and operate. Like mentioned, takes some of the pain of grinding away. But you cant always get away from grinding either.

[kwhizz]

Nothing personal, it's just business isn't it? Stop helping those that aren't willing to help you in return, no matter what country they're from.


My feelings exactly..........Many times I would read the postings here and the questions asked would be so elementary......I would think to myself.....How could this guy be in the business and not be able to figure this out.......then I look and see where he is from and then it all makes sense........LOL......But , then I see everyone helping to answer the question and I think to myself, WTF........let him figure it out on his own as we are giving away the years of "Experience" that we suffered thru to get to this point.......And.....we are helping the off shore guy's get better so they can take more of our work away...........I say "Screw Them"......Just my hard earned $.02

Ken

[roninB4]

cnctoolman- Glad to hear that somebody out there in America is still working with prog dies, that's what I spent most of my years doing. Since you've been around for a while then you also noticed that there isn't nearly as much work as there used to be. We're overhead? Why don't we try replacing people in a stamping house from all departments and see which job has a bigger impact. This is not about a class struggle, the "toolmakers are overhead" line has been a lie repeated so often it is perceived as the truth. If this were true then the front office would have been outsourced a long time ago. You've been a die maker for 15 years, I wish you greater success than many have had with more experience. Then ask yourself "why".




kwhizz- Yes, there are likely many posts on this board from non-shop people asking questions for self serving reasons. That's because many of them think we're not too bright and are here on earth to help pave the way for them. Guard your knowledge, it didn't come to you easy or cheap did it? So make sure somebody is worthy of it or is willing to help you in return. A stranger over the internet simply aks for me to give away something that cost me years of multi shift hours, filthy clothing, a lung full of grinding dust, and gallons of coffee? If you're not working in a shop then you don't need to know. Somebody that's genuinely striving to learn, is willilng to put in the time, and is local to you is a better candidate to advise than somebody that's across the pond. No offense to anybody that's not an American. We've helped the world enough already and we need to tend to our own house for a while.




If you care about the trade then watch over it like it belongs to you.

[cnctoolman]

Ronin-

I can honestly say there have been times, I've wondered why I stay in it. But for me personally it always comes back to this. I love what I do, its not a job to me. Yes I have the bad days where murphy just seems to show up, but those dont outnumber the good. Plus someone has to keep the trade alive here. I always stress to my sons that they will learn, just so they know. Do I want them to go down the same path I did, honestly at the moment no, but i want them to find what is their calling.

I myself also catch what I put out on boards aswell, but I try to point in the right direction. Some things just cant be told how to do, you have to be shown, and there are always tricks to things. And I guard them aswell, until I have been shown that all avenues have been gone down. And I still watch, as most things are common sense when you sit down and actually think about them.

And prog dies in my area are still a big item. Alot of shops have closed around us, but the ones who adapted, and looked long term have survived fortunately.

[roninB4]

cnctoolman-
Glad to hear that there's still some satisfaction in it for you despite being paired off with Murphy sometimes (he visits everybody). My best freind was a moldmaker and both of us cautioned his son NOT to enter the machine tool trades, we'd all like our children to have better (they should know what their father worked so hard at).

In the 60's & 70's when the Asians (no slam intended here) sent people out into the world to see how it should be done they were allowed into factories with cameras and notebooks. The Westerners had such egos about them that they showcased what they did, allowing copious notebooks to be filled and rolls of film to be taken inside the factories. This allowed them to fill in the missing knowledge that reverse engineering couldn't fill in. It absolutely astounded them that we Westerners could have been so careless as to allow a potential competitor to glimpse the inner workings of a manufacturing process. It happened with everything that was once made in Europe and America.

So when somebody asks for information/ideas I always ask myself what I'm getting in return. Is my idea going to be credited to me? Is it going to put money in the pocket of someone else? Am I, one day, going to be competing against my very own ideas/knowledge in the hands of an offshore company? I have nothing against anybody not from this country, why should I? They're trying to earn a living too. But we're long past the day when there was plenty for everybody. We were sold out by middle men and now there's NOT enough for everybody. This is my country, this was my trade. It belongs to each of us that put in the hours to learn/earn it, it shouldn't be given away just because they asked.

[roninB4]

Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing, foreign AND domestic.

[KilrB]

Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing, foreign AND domestic.

All too true.

Built and ran dies around here for several customers a "few" years back only to have them demand lower and lower per part prices, then take their dies elsewhere when we finally told them "NO".

... only to have them call a week later and ask if we could send someone to show the "other guys" how to run the job!

HA!

The boss laughed at them.

Figger it out on yer own!

Too often the old adage "we have met the enemy and they is us" applies.

I don't mind helping others, that's a lot of why I hang out @ places like this.

... but try to be careful about who I help.

[DoctorX]

Hello...

I have been reading these posts with great interest, and totally agree with the sentiments presented here. A couple of things occurred to me, that I would like to get your opinions on.

First: If a customer wants to have a part, assembly, etc made (for example), by your shop, why does the customer have to own the tooling? If the customer wants to force a cost reduction nowadays, either you comply or they take their tooling elsewhere. What if they didn't own the tooling, but YOU (the shop) did? You wouldn't charge them separately for the tooling, but certainly add an upcharge to the per piece cost, etc. This way, if they wanted to "take their ball and go home" they would have to pay to have the tooling made elsewhere -- it might make them more reluctant to force cost reductions if they do not own the tooling. What if every small shop did this?

Second: Almost every shop (I am primarily referring to tool and die shops, fabricators, injection molders, etc) is a derivative of a factory. This is evident. What if all of the shops that are looking for work, "create" their own work? By this I mean that if the Chinese are manufacturing and selling, say for example, wiring harnesses, or wire ties, or whatever you want to use as an example, what is to stop the shop looking for work, from producing these same products on their own and selling them? The U.S. shop would own the tooling, and they would produce and sell their own product. If the Chinese are able to provide nearly everything in sight for low cost, what if the shops here became producers as well as being job shops and began to compete with them? As an example, if you wanted to buy small metal clips used for holding cartridge fuses, you could get bids from any number of Chinese firms. What if a shop here in the U.S. just made their own fuse clips and marketed them? (Assuming fuse clips aren't made domestically as much as they may have been at one time). Further, what if you used work coming in to partially justify offering these parts at an almost comparable cost to the Chinese material? Better made, home grown for almost as cheap (maybe). With CNC and manual methods, couldn't this be possible? What if this was done all over the country? Every small town having a "factory district"? For the Chinese to compete, they would have to go almost down to the bone, and nowadays, that might no longer be possible for them. They have become too big.

I know this is all coming out of left field, but what if all of the shops that are looking for work became producers of parts, etc that are used by other industries? In essence, if not in fact, becoming mini-factories. You might even beat the Chinese at their own game...or at least give them one heck of a problem. The "Made in U.S.A." label might be powerful enough to convince some end users not to look offshore for their components.

I might be looking through "rose colored glasses", but I think between PCs, small shop machine tools becoming CNC capable (and available), and CAD CAM software, alongside manual machining skills, something along these lines could form the basis for our next 'revolution' -- taking back the U.S.A.

Thanks for reading. Your thoughts are most welcome. Go easy on the flames, ok?

Dr. X

[roninB4]

First;
So a customer walks in and wants this widget made, he's convinced that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and he needs 100 of them. You build the stamping die (we'll leave out the inspection, fixtures, and trial parts) and the die costs 2,000$ to build (a very simple die at a low cost). You're now ready to begin filling his order of 100 parts. You need to charge 20$ per part just to break even, more if you want to profit. The customer takes delivery of 10, because that's all he really needed, and you never see him again.

It's even worse if the customer convinces you that the widget is the greatest thing since sliced bread too.

Perhaps I'm reading into your questions but I don't think you've ever run a shop before.

[roninB4]

Second;
That sounds nice in theory but tooling, materials, product development, storage, advertising, and shipping all cost money that most shops don't have. Most shops don't really want to exhaust precious resources (floor space, payroll, etc.) on a new venture that may just take them directly to the poor house before it's up and running. Producing a complete product often requires more people, new machinery, and materials that are not already in-house.

While i appreciate your inquisitive nature I am further convinced that you've never run a shop before. In your own line of work (whatever that is) do you venture out beyond the capabilities of your equipment or knowledge? Can't you just flop open a book, read a little, and then start a new venture that encompasses all work related to your former venture? To borrow your analogy, the leap from making progressive electrical contact dies to full shrouded cables is a large commitment of money, floorspace, people, and machinery, let alone attempting to market this against others that have been doing this for years.

My guess is that you're 15 years old because no adult would have asked a question like this. If so, welcome to the board but think your questions out a little more before posting please.

[br1]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera..._remove_x.html Now I have to ask, do you turn around and walk away or do you help him?

[roninB4]

After reading the link, I'm guessing that he is an American. Most non-Americans don't use the word "newb", they have better language skills than that. I asked several questions that will determine what/who I feel the OP is. I have seen what I suspect are posts by a shop supervisor that had ZERO shop experience. To me, these sort are just seeking ammo to shoot at somebody else so I don't offer help until I can determine whether he/she needs to know or not and why. I don't like not helping others that need it, but I don't think that knowledge that I had to earn should be free for the asking either. The older men that taught me charged me to pass the knowledge on to the next generation and they are the intended recipients of what I was taught. I was helped when I started in the shop, but that was always repaid one way or another to my elders or an apprentice. That's not possible in this format is it? So I choose to be selective rather than an open book for those that prefer to be spoon fed rather than verify their own findings. That's a choice each of us has to make. I don't feel that being entirely open is in the best interests of those of us that have been in the trade. Being too free with knowledge has contributed to the bottom line of domestic shills and enhanced the ability of our competitors overseas. Pick your battles, do what you feel is the right thing, guard what you had to earn, seek out those that deserve to be helped. JMO.

[kwhizz]

After reading the link, I'm guessing that he is an American. Most non-Americans don't use the word "newb", they have better language skills than that. I asked several questions that will determine what/who I feel the OP is. I have seen what I suspect are posts by a shop supervisor that had ZERO shop experience. To me, these sort are just seeking ammo to shoot at somebody else so I don't offer help until I can determine whether he/she needs to know or not and why. I don't like not helping others that need it, but I don't think that knowledge that I had to earn should be free for the asking either. The older men that taught me charged me to pass the knowledge on to the next generation and they are the intended recipients of what I was taught. I was helped when I started in the shop, but that was always repaid one way or another to my elders or an apprentice. That's not possible in this format is it? So I choose to be selective rather than an open book for those that prefer to be spoon fed rather than verify their own findings. That's a choice each of us has to make. I don't feel that being entirely open is in the best interests of those of us that have been in the trade. Being too free with knowledge has contributed to the bottom line of domestic shills and enhanced the ability of our competitors overseas. Pick your battles, do what you feel is the right thing, guard what you had to earn, seek out those that deserve to be helped. JMO.

x 1000