[mattmark]

I've been watching Hoss' ZX45 and clocker's Zay7045 CNCing thread with great interest (amongst everything else). Seems like there are tons of x3 threads, but less so on the RF-45 side (which leads to many clarifications vs x3 mods). I'm about to purchase a Machine Tools Warehouse RF-45 clone. In my neck of the woods, it's only $50 more than a super x3 ($1650 CAD for the RF-45 clone). Seems like a no-brainer there.

I'm a research like crazy b4 I buy type of person, but i'm itching to order things right now (especially with some sales going on right now). I'm a complete newbie, hence a lot of questions. Generally, i'm trying to clarify a lot of threads+website links that i've been investigating..

Our electrical guy is coming over tonight to sort out the 220V stuff to see if it's easy to deal with our stuffed electrical board (100+ year old house divided into 3 apts).

1): the base/stand. Hoss' version looks to be 86 inches from floor to max Z-axis extension. MWT says theirs is about 80 inches extended. My basement workshop area is 80 inches max in height. Are there shorter stand heights that i should consider to get some clearance (the stand MWT has is 27.5 inches). I'm not planning to CNC right away, but that's the goal. Will I need the max Z in most cases?

I'll be working mainly on aluminum parts for video+camera mount/support equipment. The largest piece I want to build currently is 5x7x1.5" and may need to be vertically mounted for some parts. Seems like i'll need the extension for this orientation? Will probably be working on steel/iron eventually. Do any of you use 24" or the like?

2) CNCing - if my goal was to go the full 9 yards, ATC, coolants, etc

In regards to Steppers vs Servos, gas struts, counterweights - aside from pricing, are those more of a personal choice here? I'm assuming all the add-ons to the head won't affect the weight too much - any other considerations?

Seems like higher voltage steppers for X+Y in the ~500oz /in and ~1000 oz /in Kelings for the Z-axis, 0.200 in screw threads, Gecko 203 drivers seem to be the general consensus.. any other ideas (I'm open to crazy ones)


3) Tooling - for a vise, what's a a minimum tolerance for precision? and what's a good size for the main vise?

The Glacern Vise looks pretty sweet - any other suggestions around this price range?
http://www.glacern.com/gsv_440

or do most of you have wider jaws?
http://www.glacern.com/gsv_690

I had some more questions, but i gotta go pick up new year's eve supplies =)

Matt

[pete from TN]

Good to hear that there are others around here with rf45 style machines. I love mine..... I would highly recommend servos if you can and the G320 drives are what I am using. No probems there with a bunch of hours on the machine now... I dunno what the specs are they are giving on the machine height but I would hope the measurements are with the head at max lift since the head will go up higher than the column a few inches and the motor of course sits on top. I have a Lathemaster that I converted to cnc, you can probably get an idea of the work involved in my thread" finally getting started" on this same forum. It basically took me about 8-9 months to do the whole thing but I decided to completely strip my machine down and actually repainted it in the process. I also did a one shot oiler conversion which I highly recommend you do. Not too costly but VERY worth it. The rf45 machines are pretty tough for a benchtop and can take some relatively heavy cuts when necessary. I also recommend at least a vfd with 3 phase motor because once you go cnc it is super cool to just type in your selected speed.... If you have any specific questions give a shout.... peace

[mattmark]

Hi Pete,

I've seen your thread and will have to study it further =)

But i'll still ask:
are you using DC or AC Servos?

For 3-phase, are you using 220v 3-phase or using a converter?

what's your floor to top of the motor distance on your 45?

thanks,

Matt

[pete from TN]

yeah I am using DC servos. Mine are a tad overkill for this size machine but I got a great deal on them so I bought all three with encoders mounted. I gotta say that I had a lot of problems with my US digital encoders and have since gone with the Digikey endoder kits on my machine and have had great smooth action ever since. My motors are the same ones you can buy at Keling inc. or Home cnc and they are good motors.... I am using a 2-1 ratio belt drive on the X and y, and a 3-1 on the Z. My motors are 1125 oz in. models and I have never had a power problem!!

My spindle has been converted to a belt drive custom built by myself and runs off single phase power with a teco sensorless vector drive outputting variable speed spindle control power to a 3hp 3ph 56c motor. The spindle control runs thru a CNC4PC C11G breakout board. It took some fiddling with the spindle settings in the Mach3 control program to get accurate spindle speed outputs to match my inputs. Right now If I type in 5500rpm for instance my digital laser tachometer reads 5570, it seems no matter what speed I dial in 2500, 1500, whatever there is always an additional 70 rpm added to it. I cannot seem to get any better than that right now but I did not try too hard either. It is very linear tho so I am okay with it....

I will have to measure the height of the machine when I get back in the shop tomorrow, I built my stand from 2x3 rectangular tubing and it is an angled leg design all welded construction. I also built my own plywood and fiberglass based enclosure which is still under construction. I have yet to buy the plexiglass for the walls.... The ceiling in my shop is more than nine feet high so it is no issue to me really. Most important thing is to set the table at a comfortable working height. I HATE to bend over to work on the machine.

I am off all week for the holidays so I have actually been finishing up some items that had been unfinished. I finally got the upper section of my one shot oiler completed and primed, I also had yet to finish the installation of the microswitch in my Aaron Moss designed IH limit switches. I bought a pair of these from Himykabibble and made another one for my Z axis. Just had trouble figuring out what kinda switch he used so settled on a small microswitch. Got it installed and wired up tonight actually. Now I can finally take advantage of the homing capabilities of Mach and start using the G55 etc codes for multiple part positioning, once I figure out how the hell to do it that is of course....



There is a lot of stuff that can be learned from reading thru my thread about this machine, this does not mean you have to follow everything but it will give some clues about what I did and why and should work to help you with your built even if you go in a completely different direction.

This machine has been a lot of work but now that It is operational I am seriously hooked on it. It recently completed it's first production run and I cannot tell you how cool it is to watch something that you built yourself repeatably recreate complicated movements and cuts making it all look so simple. Just amazing to watch...


Good Luck with your machine, if it is anything like mine I think you will get years of good use and enjoyment from it. Again, if you have any specific questions about the build or anything else feel free to contact me.... peace

[mattmark]

Hey Pete,

I'm still reading through your thread and checking out the servos and boards/power supplies.. also gotta figure out the oiler, and do i want to do flood coolant i guess chips are chips.

in general i'm just doing as much research as possible. i finally got a date range to get my electrical updated.

MWT sent me a manual, which is showing a Zay7045.

an update on the stand height issue - MWT has a shorter stand 19-20". Is this a strange height to work from? it's either 27.5" and risk losing some Z travel, or have lots of clearance, but quite a bit lower.. i'm not sure i want to be sitting while milling?

for the super-mod ppl - anything else i need to consider if i want to eventually go ATC, etc? is everyone using the tormach system for this?

Hoss, what lathe or spindle are you using for your 4th access on your x2 freak ?

[hoss2006]

Hoss, what lathe or spindle are you using for your 4th access on your x2 freak ?

I used parts from my 7x10 lathe and some custom pieces,
Hoss

[mattmark]

I used parts from my 7x10 lathe and some custom pieces,
Hoss

Nice - now i have to watch all your youtube vids and projects =)

Anyone have thoughts on these lathes (pretty much the 4 shops that i have access to semi-locally)? I'd love to add this as a 4th cnc axis in the future or stand alone.

https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...cat=254&page=1

http://www.princessauto.com/shop-gar...rd=metal+lathe

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=B1979C

http://www.atlas-machinery.com/produ...Speed-DC-Motor

[hoss2006]

You don't have to buy a whole lathe, LMS has the head assembly, motor, and controller.
Hoss

[blighty]

i too have a converted RF-45.

i went with steppers, 960oz on X,Y and 1290oz on the Z all direct drive. i think i got the 201 drives from gecko, but i haven seen them for awhile. all steppers running at 61.5v. class5 balls and screws.

i have recently put a counter balance on the head as every now and then the stepper would stall. not good when it thinks it's at 50mm above ziro when its more like 20mm. since i put the 76kg on the back its been fine.

the only thing that i have a problem with is the spindle speed, out the box it will do 1600rpm, would be nice to get it to 3-4000rpm.

[mattmark]

After all this research and ordering the electrical stuff for next week, I've plonked down the cash and ordered the mill..

Pat from Machinetools (https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.com) near Toronto has been really easy to deal with. My RF-45 (i think it's a ZAY7045) clone is coming tomorrow.

thanks hoss for the lathe links. i saw the cnc vise that you got from discount machine for $100ish, sweet deal. they've run out for a couple of months. anyone else know of current deal for a good 6" vise that can be mounted sideways for a decent price? the glacern premium (http://www.glacern.com/gpv_615) looks awesome, but at $500+ shipped to Canada seems a little steep.

blightly - which type of counterbalance are you using? 2-1 pulley? for CNC, i'm finding a lot more ppl using servos. what type of metal are you machining? what's your ideal max spindle speed?

i know this is further down the road, but back to ATC (maybe start with some of the tooling) - i've read Bob's thoughts on Tormach with R8 and heavier machines, some of Ray L's mach3 thread. if i had an x2, i'd attempt hoss' way...

maybe i'm blind, but has anyone have links to someone who has actually done an ATC with an RF-45 sized machine with a bit of the behind the scenes/photos methods, etc? i've read a lot of discussion, but not sure who's been successful.. seems like drawbar torque seems to be the point of frustration for everyone. so impact wrench vs another design? trying to just get oriented for options.

thanks and i'll probably have pix of me breaking the walls with the mill head in the narrow stairway to the basement =)

Matt

[blighty]

have a look at the pic's down below, you should get an idea of how i did the counterbalance.

i mainly cut ali' so i would like the spindle speed to be round the 4000rpm. at 1600rpm that i have at the mo, i find if i go any faster than 500mm/m i start getting cut marks. plus i would need to slow it back down to the 150-200rpm mark

i machine all sorts of material, ali, brass, copper, tool steel, stainless, mild, cast iron and some plastics.

ATC........ i have seen one on the zone that had a cylinder with a 3" piston under 40psi that worked very well and it was on a rf-45 sized machine, but I've had no luck finding it so far. great help i know........sorry. the same machine also had a tool carousel stuck to the side of the column. when a tool change was needed the head went up, the carousel swung round........ well you know the rest. would like to do that some day :-)

[hoss2006]

By the time you are ready for an ATC, you may be able to buy one that poppabear started on for
the Tormach then sold to the Chinese.
It's a similarly sized mill.
We'll see if they bring it to market.
Hoss

[mattmark]

after some shipping delays and issues (which were rectified really quickly), i got my shipping pallet early this evening while cooking dinner.

took my dad and i many hours to get everything in the house.. i am envious of everyone's ground level shops and flat driveways.. i'll let the photos do the talking rolling a hoist with 100s of lbs on muddy grass and even/broken concrete blocks in narrow alleys as well as sloping streets and sidewalks was not fun.

i can't believe i dragged my dad into this, but i couldn't have done it without him.

interesting product that hoss recommended, the powermate.. ball screw hand dolly driven off a battery.. $50/day from home depot... pretty awesome for big loads up and down the stairs.. will post a video later..

thanks for everyone's help - i'll get some chips flying when i get powered up and get some tooling

oh yeah, anyone got a good link/tutorial for taking the table apart step by step? as you can see, i've got it stuck on a landing right now.. too wide to safely take down at the moment with the powermate.. will probably ramp down the separate axis' once i get it apart.

Matt

[hoss2006]

i am envious of everyone's ground level shops and flat driveways..

Matt

you and me both. My truck was on a slope in the mud too.
take the bracket and bearing off the one side and you can crank the table off the other side.
At least it's off the street now and no one can walk away with it.
Hoss

[mattmark]

hoss, thanks - i knew i was reading the diagram right for the screw, i just didn't expect the bracket dowel to be so tight! haha, we already had enough looks on the street, like what is that huge thing on the street? i wasn't too worried about ppl swiping the base (my dad suggested leaving it on the porch - i'm glad too that we got it in the house)

i ended up moving the table downstairs on my own.. pictures to come.

i picked up some hockey pucks and nuts and bolts a la bob warfield to mount under the mill base (i know there are many different thoughts on levelling the stand vs levelling the mill base). any ideas of what i should do support the bottom of the stand? is using 2 sets of hockey pucks overkill (one for the stand and one for the mill)? my tile on concrete floor isn't the straightest right now. the stand wobbles quite a bit.

[Flenser]

Matt,

congrats on the new machine. I've had a ZX-45 for about 6 months, and have recently decided to convert it to CNC and started looking around the board for information. Not having much time to post myself, I will be following your thread closely

w.r.t. leveling, I built a wooden stand for mine and meticulously leveled it before the mill ever arrived. It wasn't off by much, but I later found I had to level the mill as well.

I also had some tramming issues after removing the tower and remounting it. I don't know if it was off before I unbolted the tower, since I had to remove it to get it home. But there was noticeable stepping when I cut along the x-axis, and I was thinking I might have somehow mounted the head wrong. Then I ran across a remark, I think on the lathemaster forum, that indicated tramming was sometimes an issue after the tower had been removed. It needed 0.025" of shim stock between the base and the front of the tower to fix the problem.

Jeff

[bill south]

Matt;
Congrats on the machine. Mine was that clean at one time and in many more pieces. Let the adventure begin!!!!
Bill

[mattmark]

hi bill and jeff,

thanks for dropping a line.

jeff, while separating the column from the base, i noticed a couple of copper shims on one side under the column. looks like tramming at the factory before painting? i definitely think things need to be aligned/trammed before operation. What type of wood pieces were you using?

bill, it's nice and clean for now, but i think i chipped a lot of the edges getting it the table apart, etc. oh well

it's interesting that more and more rf-45 threads are developing. it'll be interesting to see the "cutting edge" users creating new ways of doing things that might not have been needed for x2/x3 conversions, ie ATC, etc..

[Flenser]

I had a couple of shims sticking out under the paint on one side as well. I didn't remove them, but the shims I placed in the front might have unloaded them a little. Now that I think about it, I wonder if they are doing anything at all.

I just used pine 2X10s for the base. I have a pretty low ceiling and was worried about clearance, so the mill sits less than 14" off the floor. It's sort of interesting sitting in an office chair to run the mill...

Jeff

[mattmark]

not much progress yet because i rolled my ankle playing volleyball last night, but decided to post some pix of the doorframe (yet another hoss idea)+cable hoist, rope tow with ramp project over the weekend to get the base down the stairs. took a while to set up, but move was pretty effortless.

matt