[tjskcnc]

Thanks for starting this new forum section aimed for the sign making industry. I built my CNC machines to get back into the sign industry. I previously owned a full service electric sign company, many years ago, before computers entered the sign business. I remember the first sign oriented CNC tables and thought I would really like to have one of those amazing tools. Back then it was about $4500 for a 4x8 table. A lot of money 25 years ago. The focus was only on flat cutout letters in mdf and acrylic, so I couldn't justify the expense. 3D modeling and v-carved lettering software was not around then.

To answer the question 'Why don't more sign makers share?'
- The competition out there is fierce, and most sign makers don't want to give their secrets away to the competition. Even I am reluctant to 'give away' any hard learned methods to someone who may be competing with me for the same work. Unfortunately, forums like this do not work unless people are willing to share, so I will, of course, be posting techniques I use in some of my work in the hopes that others will do the same.

I just finished a project cutting 5/8 inch letters, 1/8 inch thick, for a client, and, as soon as I can complete an understandable tutorial (I'm not the best technical writer) on my method, I will post it. Hopefully someone can improve on the methods used.

[Joe Crumley]

Looking forward to seeing what your up to.

Like you, I'm always open to sharing information. It may take time to find volunteers to join in this forum since most contributors are technicians and not artists.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[CarveOne]

Looking forward to seeing what your up to.

Like you, I'm always open to sharing information. It may take time to find volunteers to join in this forum since most contributors are technicians and not artists.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

Uh oh, you got me pegged with the not-an-artist thing Joe.

I would have to draw ideas from other people's work initially but that's how we bootstrap our way up the education ladder and become an artist - eventually. I'm getting too close to the "eventually" end of the scale to become Michelangelo but yet I still want to work at it until my name is called.

Which size and model EZ router do you have? My homebuild machine is just 49" x 62" x 6" travels, so my signs will be limited, or pieced together.

CarveOne

[Joe Crumley]

C one

I'm working with a 5'X10' EZ. It's a good buy. I started out with a ShopBot.

Creating signs with the assistance of a CNC is a good way to make a living. However it's not the equipment, by itself, that makes a sign business go.



This photo was take three years ago. The fellow in the snap, Terry Lane, was my faithful employee. He passed away a year ago.

Much of this business relies on a firm understanding of layout and design.

Good to have you aboard.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[CarveOne]

Though ShopBot is only about 150 miles west of here, I have looked longingly at the EZ site many times. A couple of friends are jointly building a 5'x10' MechMate. All of these machines are what I want for one reason or another, but are out of reach for now. I know of one 4'x8' ShopBot locally but as far as I know the owner has not been using it extensively.

All I need is a "stimulus check" and I could drive over to Durham, NC and pick up a ShopBot and be back by dinner.

I'm not proficient with any kind solid modeling software, but will need to get started on it after completing my second CNC machine.

Maybe some others will find this forum and it will grow in interest. I'll be checking in from time to time. Primary effort for me right now is to complete the machine as it is and collect material to expand the X axis length and build a steel frame for it similar to your EZ next year.

CarveOne

[Joe Crumley]

I'm not good with the tech end of CNC's. Each time I found myself get the SB up to speed, I was loosing money. I don't enjoy fixing programs or maintenance so I hire all of it done.

Everyone find their area of enjoyment. For me, it's making the best signs I can. That about it for me.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[CarveOne]

I'm not good with the tech end of CNC's. Each time I found myself get the SB up to speed, I was loosing money. I don't enjoy fixing programs or maintenance so I hire all of it done.

Everyone find their area of enjoyment. For me, it's making the best signs I can. That about it for me.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

It appears that I'm just the opposite. More hardware oriented, but at least I'm the teachable type, even when self - learned on CNC Zone.

Btw, I've stayed in Norman and Ardmore in the mid 70's while doing installation testing on ARCO's microwave system upgrade during that time.

CarveOne

[Joe Crumley]

The best way to get started is to find a sign that appeals to you and copy that. This is known as apprenticeship. Copy, copy and copy intill you get it right. It's just like playing the piano. Keep doing one thing till you have it down pat. That's called mastery and it seldom comes without lots of practice. So choose a good design and do that!

No matter how expensive a CNC a person has, it's doublful they'll come up with a masterpiece right off the bat. It's just like a begining piano student in front of a baby grand Steinway.

So I advise to find a good design and get started, knowing it's an experiment.

Joe Crumley
www.normansign.com

[tjskcnc]

I agree that having a cnc router will not, by itself, make someone a proficient sign maker. The cnc machine is just another tool. You first need to design the sign. Not everything will need to be done on your cnc router. I can cut out individual letters and sign outlines with a band saw or scroll saw much quicker than it would take to design, program, setup, and then cut on my machine. The customer does not care what tools you use, only the end result and how it will benefit their business. We make money by helping our customers make money.

When I opened my first sign business many years ago, I would try and duplicate signs I saw in Signcraft and Signs Of The Times magazines. Even the most famous artists and musicians started out by copying and learning the techniques of those that came before them. In my opinion, for anyone interested in becoming a better sign designer, the best resources are the previously mentioned publications. Also, the book "Mastering Layout" by Mike Stevens is mandatory study material. Some of the sign and lettering styles may not be very contemporary (original publication 1986 according to my copy) but the information on designing a sign is still invaluable.

added:
If interested, the book is available from McLogan's Sign Supply:
http://www.mclogan.com/shop/masterin...8-c-52_54.html

I travel around the western states, see uncountable signs, and come across many that are very eye catching and can tell that sign maker has read Mike Stevens.

[Joe Crumley]

I couldn't agree moore.

Sometimes I think Mik Stevens book works best for us seasoned old professionals. That's because it's so deep it's hard to put into practice. But still, every sign artist should have one.

I would encourage a newby to visit www.letterheadfonts. com, and visit their Gallery to find a practice model. This is the largest depository of good sign examples I've found.

Happy NEW YEAR to everyone.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[tjskcnc]

I couldn't agree moore.

Sometimes I think Mik Stevens book works best for us seasoned old professionals. That's because it's so deep it's hard to put into practice. But still, every sign artist should have one.

I would encourage a newby to visit www.letterheadfonts. com, and visit their Gallery to find a practice model. This is the largest depository of good sign examples I've found.

Happy NEW YEAR to everyone.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

Thanks for the great link. Unfortunately, the signs shown at the site are pretty much the 'best-of-the-best' and can be pretty intimidating to the new sign artist.

Newbies - Study "Mastering Layout." If you only grasp the information in the first chapter, you will be head-and-shoulders above your local competition. Also, the chapter on negative space is extremely important. Find a simple design to start, then work your way up to more intricate designs.

Joe~
Visited your website. Awesome work. I dream of doing that type of sign work.
I hope you remain a contributing poster to this site and to this section of the forum.

[tjskcnc]

Uh oh, you got me pegged with the not-an-artist thing Joe.

I would have to draw ideas from other people's work initially but that's how we bootstrap our way up the education ladder and become an artist - eventually. I'm getting too close to the "eventually" end of the scale to become Michelangelo but yet I still want to work at it until my name is called.

Which size and model EZ router do you have? My homebuild machine is just 49" x 62" x 6" travels, so my signs will be limited, or pieced together.

CarveOne

CarveOne~
Please keep posting here. I have learned a lot from your posts on this site. This can be a very symbiotic relationship. The technicians can learn from the artists, who, in turn, need to learn from the technicians.
A 4'x5' sign is still a fairly large wood sign. There is a lot of work within that size range. Starting at $45 to $65 per sqFt, I am sure you can figure out the profit potential.

As an experienced sign maker, I have found most customers, thus the majority of sign work, want large capital block letters covering every inch of the sign face. Ugly, but, if you're running a business for profit, you give the customer what they want. Beautiful signage, such as the examples from Joe's site, come at a premium price, and most customers will not want to pay for it. "Just make the letters real big" is what you will hear most of the time.

Many years ago I had a friend in the business, Chuck Craft, who specialized in glue chip, etched, and gold leafed signs. He made signs for many micro-breweries, pubs and bars. His craftsmanship and design work were second to no one. Most of his work was still "large capital block letters covering every inch of the sign face." That paid the bills. The icing-on-the-cake was the beautiful signage he was able to do for the high paying customers that came along once in while.
For you newbies that are seriously considering entering the sign business, that basically means not to expect, just because you have this neat cnc machine that can create all these beautiful pieces of art, that your customer is interested. You may be thinking of fantastic 3D lettering, graphics, and designs, while your customer is thinking "large capital block letters covering every inch of the sign face."

Anyway, enough rambling.
Just add your own 2 bits worth and keep this section of the site growing.

[Joe Crumley]

I know there's lots of interest in using a CNC for sign making. It's a natural entry point for those having the equipment. But how could one start out and where could they go to get work?

I'm convinced the practice of making "Letter Samples" is a good way to start. Even after all these years of making signs, I'm still making showroom examples. This practice keeps my skills up and provides hand on products for my clients. I'm always selling off of my samples. It's funny to me, this isn't a standard practice for sign shops. Yes you can buy letters from big plastic companies but there weak when compared to the real thing.

Perhaps I should take a few pix of samples and post them.

Letterhead Fonts: You may notice there are two types of displays offered. One type is graphic displays. These aren't actual sign but the art work. Obviously, the other is the real thing. For the beginner ist's best to actually see how the signs is put together. The beautiful PhotoShop images aren't as helpful as the real thing.

Since having a good layout and design is essential, I've suggested using an existing layout by a seasoned artist.t There by concentrating on the physical chore routing and painting. Design will come along with time.

Here's a photo of a four day workshop I conducted a couple of years ago.



These fellows came from all corners of the country ready to go to work. It was a blast but took me a week to recover. We need more fellow artist conducting workshops.

Copper Letters: Sculpt Nouveau and Tiffany Green patina.

[CarveOne]

CarveOne~
Please keep posting here. I have learned a lot from your posts on this site. This can be a very symbiotic relationship. The technicians can learn from the artists, who, in turn, need to learn from the technicians.
A 4'x5' sign is still a fairly large wood sign. There is a lot of work within that size range. Starting at $45 to $65 per sqFt, I am sure you can figure out the profit potential.

As an experienced sign maker, I have found most customers, thus the majority of sign work, want large capital block letters covering every inch of the sign face. Ugly, but, if you're running a business for profit, you give the customer what they want. Beautiful signage, such as the examples from Joe's site, come at a premium price, and most customers will not want to pay for it. "Just make the letters real big" is what you will hear most of the time.

Many years ago I had a friend in the business, Chuck Craft, who specialized in glue chip, etched, and gold leafed signs. He made signs for many micro-breweries, pubs and bars. His craftsmanship and design work were second to no one. Most of his work was still "large capital block letters covering every inch of the sign face." That paid the bills. The icing-on-the-cake was the beautiful signage he was able to do for the high paying customers that came along once in while.
For you newbies that are seriously considering entering the sign business, that basically means not to expect, just because you have this neat cnc machine that can create all these beautiful pieces of art, that your customer is interested. You may be thinking of fantastic 3D lettering, graphics, and designs, while your customer is thinking "large capital block letters covering every inch of the sign face."

Anyway, enough rambling.
Just add your own 2 bits worth and keep this section of the site growing.

I'll keep checking and posting here for sure. Thanks for the compliments too.

Just reading this forum made me start looking at signs without actually reading the message. I'm just looking at the layout and the lettering now. So far, I have been able to avoid having collisions while doing so .......

CarveOne

[Big-tex]

I agree just becouse someone has Super router without skills and due to customer requests signs will not be as we wish. That goes for colors etc. I can suggest to my clients few aspects and they usualy follow my directions, but budget is major constrain.
I can see that you guys have skills and talent. I have a lot to learn, so keep posting few tips and tricks, please....
Over last year I have made tromendous stride with huge learning curve starting with my own build 4x4 router.

Happy new year!!!!!!!

[Joe Crumley]

Happy New Year,

CarveOne & Big-tex

One of the advantages of dimensional signs, over flat painted panels, comes during the painting and finishing. No longer is it necessary to mask off the background in order to spray or roll paint. And it's quiet easy to add a little decorative shade or highlight to individual letters. If you don't like the look, no problem, paint it again.

To develop skills in this area, I suggest looking for a couple of old books, on line, by Samuel Welo (Studio Handbook), or any of the lettering books by E.C. Matthews, and Sign Painting by Atkinson. These were published back in the 40's & early 50's. The Welo book has some great panels. I purchase the least expensive since I'm not a collector.

Here's a panel using some of the idea's from Matthews and Welo.



Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[Joe Crumley]

Here's another work in progress.

I received a call from the local Hookah Bar requesting a new sign. Untill the phone call, I never heard of such a thing. They wanted a sign that depicts something like Ali Babba and the seven therves. What I really wanted to do was a floating carpet but the city wouldn't approve a moving sign. In the final analysis we focused on a double sided waterpipe.

This sign is nothing more than pieces and part all fabricated together. Painting was easy and fun. To keep the hose in a perminent shape I filled it with colored Epoxy.



Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[CarveOne]

Happy New Year to you Joe!

Very nice examples. Keep them coming while I continue to gear up.

The local TV news had a blurb on the new anti smoking law here in NC that just went into effect and they interviewed an owner of one of these outfits. This country just keeps getting stranger every day. I didn't know that this was getting popular here either.

I'm getting closer to having a working machine now. My smaller machine jogs at close to 50 ipm max. As of today the new one is 375 ipm on the Y/Z lead screws and 780 ipm on the X axis dual pinion drives. The Y will be changed to pinion drive when the weather gets warmer again.

CarveOne

[Joe Crumley]

CarveOne,

Looking over the whole process which includes sales, concepts and design, proposals, ordering materials, routing, and finishing and installation, a slow router has never set me back. I've never suffered from a too slow router.

Concepts/ Design can take lots of time. I don't know of anyway to speed it up.

[Big-tex]

Sweet sign.
I just went through upgrades of me router, now I am jogging at 600ipm fly cutting at 250. Reduced flex with improved accuracy. I am kinda proud of my DIY 4x4 router. I do not do as fancy signs as you. Yet....