[kanankeban]

Hi guys...
Actually thats my situation right now!
I have a 100K budget. I plan to do the invesment of my life, want to throw 50 cash and other 50 financed. I could throw the 100 cash, but want to have 50 in hand if I need something extra.
My CNC knowledge comes to a CNC lathe, CNC mill and MasterCAM course. Im very knowledgeable in several 2D and 3D CAD software, besides computers, some basic knowledge in manual lathes and mills.
By profesion I am an Architect with a Master Degree in Architectural Design...But my dream is to have a CNC Business, one for bringing to life my ideas, and in the way making a buck, starting of course with a small scale business.
I seen benchtop options, used entry level machines (Daewoo, Haas), used high End Machines (Mazak, Mori, Okuma) and new ones...The new ones get me to Haas and Daewoo only...So Im stock in the dilema...
Please help me out here guys...I know there are lot of friends around here that have gone to the same nightmare...Any help and advise is greatly appreciated...
Thank you...
Hector

[nofx]

I have no previos experience expect for 2 years in college for mechincal engineering tech and 8 years as a cook but from what i have been able to read about. Large machining is the way to go from what my teachers have told me. Basically because shipping prices to asia on anything over a certain weight becomes not econimically viable. From my city of 150k people there is only one shop with the equipment to do large machining, they do quite good for themselfs.
The lastest Wired has a good artical on what you want to do basically. I beleive you have to find design for a product you want to produce and find the tools to produce that. Then thinking of a laundry list of machines that most shops have.
My idea is that while I'm finishing my redseal in machining. I will find good deals on older machine equipment and retro fit. Because if the steel has been resonably taken care motor and electronics can be replaced with newer more modern controllers.
but hey maybe ur looking for what equipment to get and i only have experience on old iron.

[mrainey]

Remember that the machine cost is just the beginning. You'll likely need to spend substantial sums on cutting tools, fixturing, inspection equipment, maintenance and repair, and consumables.

[Geof]

It might sound a bit discouraging but I think you have only half the money you need to start something going with reliable commercial scale machines. You have no background in machinery so it would be a risk buying used as they can nickel and dime you to death if you cannot do repairs/rebuilds yourself. This leaves you faced with buying new and a combination such as a Haas VF2 mill and TL2 lathe would need all of your $100,000; any other brand of machine is going to be the same or more expensive. Then as mrainey mentions you need to have the resources to getting tooling and all those other things he mentions. If you had several years experience working on machines and had contacts in the business then 100k would be plenty to buy two machines and start a sideline business while keeping your day job, and over a period of two or three years with a lot of luck and hard work, develop this into a fulltime, viable independent business.

[Fegenbush]

I don't have anything to say about this that hasn't been said here:

http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96369

$100k would be enough if you had a start on your machines (and they were paid for) and you had significant quoting and business operations experience. Since you mentioned that you would be starting from scratch and have less than extensive experience, I would go with $250k minimum to quit your day job.

[ViperTX]

Hector,

Before you jump into the fire. Speak with some other architects about stuff that they need for a project, but can't seem to find the right supplier.

Take a look at turningaround.org and you'll see how one person started their business.

Good luck,

Paul

[CNCRim]

$100K seem alot but I have a friend start CNC business 5 years about and they spent $150K and they thought $50K over budget is that's it but they are end up spent close to $250K. That's 2cnc Lathes 1 cnc Mill, it's all Haas.

[stevespo]

I'm not sure the poster said what he intends to make with his machines. It's seems like that would influence the decision on what to buy in a huge way. If the end goal is cutting foam and doing architectural models, then $100K would probably set him up nicely. Likewise for cutting plywood cabinets, signs, etc.

He does mention VMCs so perhaps that is where he intends to go, but it seems to me that he could start with something smaller (benchtop, etc), gain experience on the side, and then develop it into a full-time business.

It strikes me that with an architectural background and strong CAD experience that there could be a niche for him in the CNC field that would fit in his budget. Starting a full-fledged machine shop? I don't know. Something else? Perhaps.

I've been having great luck cutting small scale models for designers and my investment is quite modest (DIY benchtop). True, it's not my full time job, but that isn't to say someone properly motivated couldn't make it happen and tool up over time.

Steve

[kanankeban]

Thanks all you guys for your input...great comments!
Well to clarify the situation...Ill explain a little more...Maybe the title is wrong...maybe is should say "I have 100K to throw in a CNC shop for me to do my things and in the way do some money if oportunities arraises", "what you´ll get with that money?"

1. I already have a place (warehouse) set with 6 stations, with 220v 3 phase current, 110V, compressed air, I own the place, so rent is no problem.
2. Im an architect, sometimes I do some design and construction and do some money there, but my income comes from some other place, I can dedicate 3 or 4 hours per day without affecting my income.
3. I do not intend to make money in first place with the machining business now...I can wait 2, 3 or more years...If some money goes in, it will be used to buy nicer or bigger machines to fit the warehouse.
4. There are some basic ideas on how to put to work the machines. These ideas are apart or can be done all together.
A. open a technical school, teaching, manual machining, cnc, welding, composites, and software ( I have a lot of experience in this) this school will be located in other place I have and can arrange for a series of small shops and teaching rooms, and labs.
B. Fabricate some machines I have in mind, one for the construction business (concrete grinding machine) and cnc routers and plasma tables for the mexican market.
C. Fabricating motorcycle racing parts and go-karts parts...from levers to rims...and why not a complete bike, with ducati motor and ohlins suspension...
Truly the last part I want make money from is from regular clients...If one or two come alone well Ill take care of them...but really they are the part of the business that conserns me less.
I told you guys im an architect...but I studied that because I like it and was the thing I knew less...before that I was very avid with computers and mechanics...and feel very confortable getting my hands and face with oil
Thanks again and keep the ideas coming please...

[Geof]

That puts a different picture on things; you are in a situation similar to a zone member going under the name TravisR100 (I think).

Maybe you should try and find him in the member's list and then find the threads he started; one of them was a very good analysis of starting up a shop much like you describe.

EDIT: I had the name wrong, TravisR100.

First link below takes you to all TravisR100's threads.

Second link takes you to his cost analysis.


http://www.cnczone.com/forums/search...archid=4878656

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91787

[Teyber12]

I would invest it in the stock market instead. lot of very interesting stuff happening and in a couple years you could maybe double your investment... just something to think about.

[kanankeban]

I would invest it in the stock market instead. lot of very interesting stuff happening and in a couple years you could maybe double your investment... just something to think about.

Risky business if you dont know what you are doing...Not that I know what Ill do with the cnc machines, but I know for sure that the mayor risk is a 10 year span is loosing 40% of the invesment, plus the opportunity of investing that money, so if you go realistic, 100k lets say 10% anual per ten year will give you 260K - 60K ill get back from the machines if i sold them after that period that gives 200K/10/12=1600 dlls per month is the cost, look pretty ugly if you see it realistic. This is just rough math...but in the calculations something is not included...THE FUN TO DO IT!, so you could seat with a beer and wait, or get your hands working and have some fun...

[Geof]

.....but in the calculations something is not included...THE FUN TO DO IT!, so you could seat with a beer and wait, or get your hands working and have some fun...

It sounds like you have the philosophy I have finally come round to. I worked like a maniac for over twenty years building a successful company. Now it is pretty well turned over to the next generation and I get to spend my well deserved gains on me having fun; not too much beer though, I have cut that out because buying larger and larger clothing was cutting into my fun money.

[gabedrummin]

I just love it I have been working as a tool maker for about 30 years now . I work full time for an air - conditioner mfg, I have a shop on the side that I have pieced together for the last ten years.By machines cheap that need work fix them , try to get side work ,pay for the the kid medical expences.Fix machines work 18 hours a day . Teach my self auto cad 3d modling programing . Scrape and scrounge . To get by . Build 10.000.00 dollar tool for next to nothing.Just to try and make ends meet . Move the family 1800 miles for full time work because all the jobs in El paso went to Mexico.Now ...are Friends across the border want to know what to do with there extra 100K.Start to pay for it like everyone else.Give an American a job.Buy one wire edm and say good buy 100k GOOD LUCK.....

[xclr82xtc]

honestly...id start with injection molding... seems to be quite the demand there...

but if thats not up your alley. id buy a 5 axis cnc (used hass) for about 40k or less... maybe much less if it needs 5k worth of work or so.....fit it with a rotary table (or get a horizontal mill) and use the rest to keep the lights on, and buy the other general shop tools (tooling, band saw, drill press, granite table, software...etc). thats gonna tap your 100k pretty good. wouldn't quit my part time job till i had profit in the 2k a month range after expenses...so that would be your paycheck 24k per year...kinda sad huh? dont worry it will get better

[pjensen]

Sounds like fun. Here's some generally applicable business advice (maybe worth exactly what you pay for it...) Make a sale FIRST, and THEN buy the equipment that lets to deliver.

Making a sale first can mean different things. It can mean you have a product of your own you know you want to build (although you might check out the cost of outsourcing instead...). It can mean you have found a customer (like somebody else suggested here, talk to other architects and see what they want). It can mean you have a mass-market appeal kind of product to make, so you know pretty much for sure the customers are out there.

Buying equipment first and then finding a use for it is a very hard way to go.

Good luck!

Cheers,

-Peter

[DareBee]

honestly...id start with injection molding... seems to be quite the demand there...

but if thats not up your alley. id buy a 5 axis cnc (used hass) for about 40k or less... maybe much less if it needs 5k worth of work or so.....fit it with a rotary table (or get a horizontal mill) and use the rest to keep the lights on, and buy the other general shop tools (tooling, band saw, drill press, granite table, software...etc). thats gonna tap your 100k pretty good. wouldn't quit my part time job till i had profit in the 2k a month range after expenses...so that would be your paycheck 24k per year...kinda sad huh? dont worry it will get better

thats not what he asked. He wants to machine HIS ideas and hobby stuff (if he gets jobs in the future it is a bonus). Didn't say anything about injection moulding or running high production.
I would get 3-5 year old machines.
VMC at least a 3016 but I feel a 4020 is a little more versatile.
Lathe should have a 14 - 18 swing.
Check out Haas, Fadal, Bridgeport, Tos, Chevalier, DahLih etc.
If you figure your parts wont be too much 3D surfacing you may want to get a machine with a control such as the Fagor 8055 so that you wont need/want CAM software. It will surface great as well but you will want to use CAM for the code.

[xclr82xtc]

ah...sorry if my response was off. i thought he meant he wanted to open a job shop...for hobby stuff, id buy a knee mill, convert it to cnc, a good lathe, and drill press, band saw etc, and call it a day.

[kanankeban]

ah...sorry if my response was off. i thought he meant he wanted to open a job shop...for hobby stuff, id buy a knee mill, convert it to cnc, a good lathe, and drill press, band saw etc, and call it a day.

The idea is to open a shop that could be turn in a job shop in the future within , lets say 3 to 5 years, this span, is mainly to develop own ideas and products, besides learning and having fun on doing it. I dont need to turn some income right away from the shop...any dime earned in the shop from outsides jobs will go to more and better machines.
Im looking in getting a 5 year old Haas TM-1 and a TL-1 or maybe a SL20, I just missed a good 2006 TM-1 that went for $15,500 in ebay. I think that with luck I can get both machines for 35K-40K Throw some extra 20K on tools and begin from there...What do you think guys? The shop I already have and is ready to receive the machines in it...no rent

[xclr82xtc]

man the VF-3 we have in the shop we got used for like 32....and its flippin awesome, its got a rotary table, so its now a 5 axis machine. (6k add on)

we also have a HMC that they paid a grip for, but you could probably do without that for a while. id say find a GOOD 5 axis, and call it a day. you might spend 40-60k on it, but its worth it.


we just ordered a new machine that has two horizontal spindles on it, and it can machine one side, hand the part off to the other spindle, and then machine the other side. its baddddd azzzz lol. the problem is, it cost over 200k..lol. cant wait till the first student programs the g code wrong...