[307startup]

No, you are completely missing the boat.

If your house is wired for cable, you cannot get cable legally unless you enter into a contract with the company to provide service. BECAUSE THEY PROVIDE THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE ADMINISTRATION...not the cable on your private property.

Completely different than what you suggest.

This is more akin to buying a vehicle wherein the ABS hardware, software and Airbag hardware & software are included, but because you didn't also buy the $3950 "upgrade" to floormats, you are unable to use them in the event that they are needed.

AGAIN...hardware...a PHYSICAL entity, versus a service...ether in the air...tangible only when it is provided. Kinda like lungs and air...lungs only matter if they actually allow you to breathe

This isn't the same, if you bought a house and didn't pay extra for cable TV but the wire is there, would you complain you are not getting free TV?

How about if you have a Dish TV type system with paid basic programming, would you complain that the premium channels are not viewable unless you paid extra? After all you are paying for the dish, the signals are being received by your equipment, but you are being cheated out of extra programming by not being able to view them.

Another question, would you feel better if the physical memory and other premium software was not installed on your machine so you don't feel cheated? Answer truthfully. Now, would you be willing to pay extra to have a service tech come to your location to install the premium software that you have purchased? Oh, wait, if the software was preloaded all you would have to do is purchase " THE RIGHTS TO USE THE SOFTWARE " , type in the code and off you go. Remember, a software purchase consists of buying the right to use the SW and not the software itself, this is standard procedure in that part of the world.

Ever download a software package that has a free / low cost entry level then for a fee you can upgrade? Sometimes turning on the extra features consists of purchasing the access code. How do you feel about that?

I'm sure your response will go something like " What, do you work for Haas?" No I don't work for Haas or any other CNC company, I do however understand how such marketing systems work.

Yes, I know it is frustrating to have something "in there" but not being able to use it freely. But being you didn't pay for it, it really isn't in there.

[Xenomorph]

I guess I’ll jump in on the memory issue.

I have no idea what CPU or type of OS is in the Haas control. I do know that in the early days of PC’s they had memory limitations. While I am fairly sure that the Haas control is some sort of embedded system and is not the same thing as the PC sitting on your desk, they do share some similarities. Knowing that, I can speculate that when they charge whatever it is to be able to use the memory already in the control, they are charging for the engineering to that it took to create to software to access it. In other words you are not paying for the physical memory but the software that address it.

I am by no means an expert on memory addressing or how the Haas control works. If you want to understand the limitations about memory better then spend a few minutes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM_Limit

[307startup]

The problem with this argument is that the software is already IN the machine...there are no DOWNLOADS. Just a code (key) that unlocks the existing capability. Endplay. All costs have already been amortized across every machine they implement the system into. It is NOT the buyers fault or concern that the factory didn't properly price the machine (which contains the features that are unaccessible) and now literally want a ransom to release. That is exactly what it is. A RANSOM on your personal property...they want additional payment for work that is ALREADY done. It is NOT extra service. Is an email or even a dongle shipment worth $4000? That's not work, that is avarice.

Either properly price your equipment, or give me a discount for not installing the extra crap. Do NOT penalize me, the buyer, for work that I didn't initially ask for. Every HAAS owner IS being charged for equipment that they didn't order. That business model is severely broken. And there is no way in hell it can be CHEAPER to include this hardware and software, than leaving it out...it is an EXTRA step in order to put it in, in the first place! Work is an action that results in something being moved or done...no additional parts...no additional work. This isn't about semantics, it's about dealing with reality.

I guess I’ll jump in on the memory issue.

I have no idea what CPU or type of OS is in the Haas control. I do know that in the early days of PC’s they had memory limitations. While I am fairly sure that the Haas control is some sort of embedded system and is not the same thing as the PC sitting on your desk, they do share some similarities. Knowing that, I can speculate that when they charge whatever it is to be able to use the memory already in the control, they are charging for the engineering to that it took to create to software to access it. In other words you are not paying for the physical memory but the software that address it.

I am by no means an expert on memory addressing or how the Haas control works. If you want to understand the limitations about memory better then spend a few minutes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM_Limit

[Geof]

The problem with this argument is that the software is already IN the machine...there are no DOWNLOADS. Just a code (key) that unlocks the existing capability. Endplay....

Quite correct. This also extends to the software for Macro capability, Rotation and Scaling, High Speed Machining and possibly more optiones that are not unlocked on the base machine but can be unlocked on payment of a sum of money.

Are you suggesting that all of these should be available to a person who paid only the base machine price using the arguement that they are in the machine when purchased so they "belong" to the purchaser?

[Xenomorph]

You are making a lot of assumptions on the behalf of Haas. How do you know how they cost their machines?

Why would they make people pay for what they do not want? Many people only need 1 meg of ram. Does it not make sense to have only the people that want the software to address the 16 meg memory location pay for whatever it took to develop?

The problem with this argument is that the software is already IN the machine...there are no DOWNLOADS. Just a code (key) that unlocks the existing capability. Endplay. All costs have already been amortized across every machine they implement the system into. It is NOT the buyers fault or concern that the factory didn't properly price the machine (which contains the features that are unaccessible) and now literally want a ransom to release. That is exactly what it is. A RANSOM on your personal property...they want additional payment for work that is ALREADY done. It is NOT extra service. Is an email or even a dongle shipment worth $4000? That's not work, that is avarice.

Either properly price your equipment, or give me a discount for not installing the extra crap. Do NOT penalize me, the buyer, for work that I didn't initially ask for. Every HAAS owner IS being charged for equipment that they didn't order. That business model is severely broken. And there is no way in hell it can be CHEAPER to include this hardware and software, than leaving it out...it is an EXTRA step in order to put it in, in the first place! Work is an action that results in something being moved or done...no additional parts...no additional work. This isn't about semantics, it's about dealing with reality.

[307startup]

Well yes, Geof, I suppose I am

Do you charge an "upgrade" fee to your customers for "hidden" features on your disability-aid products?

If the factory can sell a "base" model that ALREADY has all the bells & whistles (minus the unlocked capability) for LESS than they sell an "upgraded" model...why don't they simply adjust the price accordingly? All the work has ALREADY been done. It seems like a very simple argument to me...of course, I am biased.

Either the owners of the "upgraded" models are getting royally screwed (and paying for the privilege) or the owners of the "base" models are getting a helluva deal...that the "upgraded" owners are basically paying for. Does it sit well with you, as a HAAS owner, to be subsidizing any other HAAS owners? How does that extra weight feel on your back?

Quite correct. This also extends to the software for Macro capability, Rotation and Scaling, High Speed Machining and possibly more optiones that are not unlocked on the base machine but can be unlocked on payment of a sum of money.

Are you suggesting that all of these should be available to a person who paid only the base machine price using the arguement that they are in the machine when purchased so they "belong" to the purchaser?

[307startup]

I make no assumptions. If you care to read the entire post, you will realize that the model year belonging to the OP and all of the newer models already come with the expanded memory installed...just not available for use without an "upgrade" fee. But there is no "upgrade"...just a code/key that UNLOCKS its use. So in effect, you have already PAID for the expanded memory.

It's like buying a two-door coupe from a dealer, but being given a four-door sedan and being told not to use the backseat. What manufacturer in their right mind (ie, operating for profit) allows a product to ship without collecting full price from the customer? That's just it...they HAVE. Now they want you, the customer to pay MORE to access the property you have already LEGALLY paid for.

Any manufacturer that knowingly installs upgraded components on its products, has already run the numbers and amortized the difference across all the models that it installs it on. So once again, in effect, you have ALREADY PAID FOR THAT MEMORY...they just won't let you access it without a RANSOM. That is criminal if you did it as a "citizen"...but evidently, if you are a publicly traded corporation, those same laws do not apply.

You are making a lot of assumptions on the behalf of Haas. How do you know how they cost their machines?

Why would they make people pay for what they do not want? Many people only need 1 meg of ram. Does it not make sense to have only the people that want the software to address the 16 meg memory location pay for whatever it took to develop?

[Hele63]

Having worked in a shop that purchased more memory for a Fadal and a Fanuc mill, I would much rather deal with Haas's business model where I can just make a call and have a code to enable certain features. In the long run, I feel that this method is cheaper. On our Fadal 4020, we paid more than $1500 for the increase in memory plus we also had to pay the service call as it was a physical board to be put in the controller and they wouldn't sell us just the board to install ourselves. I don't remember how much the Fanuc solution was, but I remember it being very painful.

I have aq couple machines that have Fanuc controlers and also a couple Haas and let me tell you the Fanuc was around 4k to upgrade the mem that was already installed. I am tired of these guys that run stuff from there grage and have no idea about business and business models, i build extrusion machinery and we have all sorts of things that are built in but they need codes to unlock certain items, the reason is cost! it is much easyier to have all one system that i install in all my machines than to have multipul systems and have to refer to each one and then look up what system and what they have, there are reasopns for why Haas, Fanuc, Fadal, and all the other ones charge for extra mem. and dont give me this crap that the mach system doesnt charge me anything, that is not an industrial control.


Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Geof]

Well yes, Geof, I suppose I am

Do you charge an "upgrade" fee to your customers for "hidden" features on your disability-aid products?...

Yes.

I have a second company, a start-up that I am financing, which is developing computer access devices. These will have many optional features embedded in the basic firmware/software but not all the potential customers will have a need for all the features. A customer will pay for the use of only the features they want to pay for / find useful.

It most emphatically would not be less expensive to have several different versions each with a different suite of options.

[307startup]

In your situation, since the product your describing is SOLELY an integrated hardware/software unit...ie, only has a single purpose...I can understand integrating all functions. For your situation it would cost more to have several product lines even in a modular platform. Multiple circuit boards, connections, etc, etc...

A machine tool is not a single purpose machine. That memory module we have been discussing is not an individual grouping...in fact if you order the upgrade on an older machine, they charge you a core, and send you the new board. Because it has to be added in order to access it. Same as for a 4th axis. You must add the driver in the control cabinet, if you want to integrate it. Otherwise you must use a stand-alone controller. Same goes for the P-cool. Same goes for adding through coolant...you need the Deublin coupler and the special draw bar. Do you see my point?

Add-ons I have no problem paying for. Paying to access what I own in the eyes of the law...I very much have a problem with. Because if there is a problem with any of the unwanted/unordered equipment that is factory installed, I the customer, must foot the bill to correct it...due to the unparalleled wisdom of the factory for tying several systems together. My memory fails? Well I don't just get to replace the 1mb memory chip...I have to replace the entire 16mb board. Now why must I pay for something I never wanted in the first place...and pay again if I later decide I now want it?

Yes.

I have a second company, a start-up that I am financing, which is developing computer access devices. These will have many optional features embedded in the basic firmware/software but not all the potential customers will have a need for all the features. A customer will pay for the use of only the features they want to pay for / find useful.

It most emphatically would not be less expensive to have several different versions each with a different suite of options.

[Xenomorph]

I did read the OP and every one after that. The fact is that he never said he had the memory in his machine. He simply stated hi dissatisfation of memory being in a machine that he could not access.

So prior to responding to this post I made a call to the Haas factory and asked them what year they started this and the answer was April 2006. So the OP's machine, a 2005, does not have any extra memory in it.

You are missing the point all together. YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR THE PHYSICAL MEMORY but the software that addresses the 16 megs.

I make no assumptions. If you care to read the entire post, you will realize that the model year belonging to the OP and all of the newer models already come with the expanded memory installed...just not available for use without an "upgrade" fee. But there is no "upgrade"...just a code/key that UNLOCKS its use. So in effect, you have already PAID for the expanded memory.

It's like buying a two-door coupe from a dealer, but being given a four-door sedan and being told not to use the backseat. What manufacturer in their right mind (ie, operating for profit) allows a product to ship without collecting full price from the customer? That's just it...they HAVE. Now they want you, the customer to pay MORE to access the property you have already LEGALLY paid for.

Any manufacturer that knowingly installs upgraded components on its products, has already run the numbers and amortized the difference across all the models that it installs it on. So once again, in effect, you have ALREADY PAID FOR THAT MEMORY...they just won't let you access it without a RANSOM. That is criminal if you did it as a "citizen"...but evidently, if you are a publicly traded corporation, those same laws do not apply.

[pld0vr]

So back on point... anyone with a TM-1P care to share the rapid and spindle settings?

[pld0vr]

I did read the OP and every one after that. The fact is that he never said he had the memory in his machine. He simply stated hi dissatisfation of memory being in a machine that he could not access.

Correct. I was really just trying to make the point of why I don't trust that the factory set that spindle speed and rapid speed for my best interests.

I simply want to make the most of the machine, and if I can alter a few settings to unleash some "locked" power, then I want to do that.

[Geof]

Correct. I was really just trying to make the point of why I don't trust that the factory set that spindle speed and rapid speed for my best interests.

I simply want to make the most of the machine, and if I can alter a few settings to unleash some "locked" power, then I want to do that.

Okay go into the Parameters and start reading them and figure out what ones may be applicable to what you want to do. Do a lot of searching here on CNCzone, the appropriate Parameters have been described in many Posts/Thread so if your are diligent you should be able to find them.

Incidentally the factory sets the speed and rapid feeds most suited to their best interests not yours; they want to avoid getting sued. If you think their product is not best suited to your interests buy something else; that is the whole idea of a free enterprise system.

[pld0vr]

Okay go into the Parameters and start reading them and figure out what ones may be applicable to what you want to do. Do a lot of searching here on CNCzone, the appropriate Parameters have been described in many Posts/Thread so if your are diligent you should be able to find them.

Please read page #1

[Xenomorph]

I know this thread has gone way off topic, but I just found this. You have got to look carefully at the memory options.

http://www.haascnc.com/option_detail...H#VMCTreeModel

[Geof]

Please read page #1

Your everywhere is too limited then, the information has been posted by at least two people. Have you been using the CNCzone search?

[pld0vr]

Your everywhere is too limited then, the information has been posted by at least two people. Have you been using the CNCzone search?

I'm not sure that you have read all of the posts in this thread.

I did eventually find the required parameters from searching... I even posted them here... but as the fellow from Haas mentioned the settings that I did find are not the same as the ones in the TM-1P...

So then the question remains, what are the real settings in the TM-1P from the factory?

[Geof]

I decided to take pity on you. This, among others, is what came up using this phrase in the search "increasing TM 1 spindle speed".

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12255

[307startup]

I am missing nothing...the software is already ON THE MACHINE. You are paying for a code/key to unlock it. In effect, you have already paid for the hardware & software simply by purchasing the machine. HAAS does not send you a dongle or CD that contains the software or computer code that needs to be integrated...they send you a password that allows you to ACCESS it.

Is English your first language? You do realize that words have specific meanings...that's the point of a common language...the ability to communicate thoughts and ideas. You don't seem able to grasp the meanings of words and what they describe...

You are missing the point all together. YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR THE PHYSICAL MEMORY but the software that addresses the 16 megs.