[Ydna]

There's one thing that I don't think anybody has mentioned. It's not a large point but I see it coming up all the time....we all love to talk about how inexpensive "memory" is these days, but there's quite a large difference between hardware made for desktop computers and that made for industrial devices. The reason computer memory is so cheap is simply because there's such a massive demand for it.
The difference in memory made for industrial controllers isn't so much physical, just economical. Think about how many chips are sold for use in PLCs, CNC controllers, robotics, and other equipment....the number is of course significantly less. Some of those systems are very advanced, but some (like PLCs) are decades behind "modern" computing technology yet they only have 256 MB of memory and cost thousands of dollars. Nobody is really being gouged but if you want the proven technology (with it's warrants on reliability) you know where to do. Obviously it's not to dell.com to buy some kind of microsoft system to control your production line

Now before people start yelling about how memory isn't THAT expensive, yes I'm sure it's not. But Haas has the right to charge at least *something* for the upgrade, IMO whether or not the memory grows on a giant silicone tree in the middle of their parking lot. So they charge less than a tenth of a percent of the machine's MSRP.
But I'll play the advocate and assume even that tiny amount is too much. What if Haas did the math on it and figured out it was actually cheaper (for them, us, or a combo of both) to pre-install the hardware and have people pay for a soft-upgrade rather than have a service tech physically arrive / mank around inside the electrical cabinet for x amount of time / all the costs associated with it. At this point Haas knows from their previous sales that only a certain percentage of their customers would pay for the upgrade, so they include it as a wash to their own production costs while at the same time recouping everything that's lost save the cost for the hardware itself. Haas' parts become more standardized, nobody needs to be on-site to facilitate an upgrade which makes people happy, and customers don't care either way because they'd only bother to use the memory if it served their purpose. Everyone is pleased and things continue onward uneventfully.

Well it might not be that way in reality, but I'm just trying to point out in my own way that there might be more intricate things happenning on a logistics level instead of simply "they hand memory to you THEN STEAL YOUR FIRST BORN BABY TO USE IT!!!!11" Well nothing that dramatic but myself I'm much happier trying to avoid figuring out the ins and outs of a huge multinational corporation's production docket and why they feel the need to do what they do. I know my blood pressure can vouch for it.

[ihavenofish]

No company has the right to turn any of my property into a paperweight, simply because they feel they have the right to whenever "slighted".

but they do.

how bout you go read the laws, understand them, then formulate a more coherent rant if you still disagree with them.

[JohnJW]

No, because I am not obligated to use Windows on MY PC. I can use Linux or Unix or any other operating system.

Praytell, what alternate controller could I use on MY HAAS? That's my point. If by purchasing a unit, I am obligated to put up with the companies hoopla at any time, it is not MINE, it is simply in my care. It's called property rights. No company has the right to turn any of my property into a paperweight, simply because they feel they have the right to whenever "slighted".

You don't have to use Haas controller with Haas machines. The main obstacle to using a third party controller with Haas machine is you. If you can DIY your own electronics and write the interface software you can probably run any machine with the Linux based EMC for the controller.

I don't know why you are so worked up over the "hidden" features. Haas is up front in their pricing. You get exactly what you pay more. If you want more, you pay more. If you want less then you pay less. It's pretty simple. In some way I am like you. I am a Linux user, I like to tinker and I'm bothered by the idea that there are all these "hidden" features right there in the machine that I just can't access. However, I have neither the skills to hack the controller nor the courage to break something I can't afford to throw away. Once you've paid for you machine, you own it and you can do whatever you want with it. Haas may not like what you are doing to their machine, but hey it's your property. Though your are still running Haas codes.

Take iPod, I don't think it can play ogg file natively, but enough people got together and wrote an open source firmware for iPod that replaced the original Apple firmware. Of course, iPod is a few magnitudes simpler and cheaper, a lot of people worked on the firmware and they probably bricked a few iPods along the way.

Maybe your experience is different, but when I bought my Haas, it was delivered with exactly the options that I've ordered. So what if the machine was over loaded with "hidden" features/options/hardwares. As long if those "hidden" features do no interfere with the machine spec I ordered, I couldn't care less if Haas stick an monkey in the controller just waiting for some unlock code so it can jump out and shake my hand.

If you don't like the current machine tool business model feel free to start a revolution similar what Haas did twenty years ago. Make yourself rich, make America stronger, and make us happier with better machines at better prices.

[Hele63]

WTF blah blah blah, i love how you compare the mach system to a Haas, Fanuc, etc. There is a major differance between them, if you dont want to use the Haas controller than dont, buy a Mach software and gut the Haas control out and put mach in place and see your differance. I am not baggin on Mach but it is not an industrial control such as Haas and Funuc. Can you high speed mill can it buffer 10k 20k 30k lines for high speed, i doubt it but hey if you want to sit there and watch grass grow go right ahead and do it and stop complaining because you have to buy extra memory.

[pld0vr]

I am not baggin on Mach but it is not an industrial control such as Haas and Funuc. Can you high speed mill can it buffer 10k 20k 30k lines for high speed, i doubt it but hey if you want to sit there and watch grass grow go right ahead and do it and stop complaining because you have to buy extra memory.

The Haas controller only buffers 4 lines of code. If you purchase the HSM option with look ahead, it will buffer 80 blocks, but only if running off of the machine - drip feed will nullify the effect back to 4 blocks.

Where are you getting these 12/20/30k lines? Stop making stuff up.

[ihavenofish]

WTF blah blah blah, i love how you compare the mach system to a Haas, Fanuc, etc. There is a major differance between them, if you dont want to use the Haas controller than dont, buy a Mach software and gut the Haas control out and put mach in place and see your differance. I am not baggin on Mach but it is not an industrial control such as Haas and Funuc. Can you high speed mill can it buffer 10k 20k 30k lines for high speed, i doubt it but hey if you want to sit there and watch grass grow go right ahead and do it and stop complaining because you have to buy extra memory.

actually, mach buffers more lookahead lines than the haas i think.

but anyhow....

[Geof]

.......But I'll play the advocate and assume even that tiny amount is too much. What if Haas did the math on it and figured out it was actually cheaper (for them, us, or a combo of both)......

I only copied a small section but the whole post is damn good, and I hope I don't sound too patronising when I extend that to very damned good for 24 years. In my definitely not humble opinion you have your head screwed on firmly and facing in the correct direction.

Maybe Haas did not use that line of reasoning but I suspect they did because it is the valid approach; it maximises the income for Haas and minimises the cost for the majority of customers. If very few customers ever took the options Haas would be better off leaving them out and charging (more probably) to install them as a special item; which would reduce the number of customers taking them even further. If nearly all customers took the options Haas would be better off including them all and raising the base price; meaning that the few that did not want them would pay more for their machines.

[Xenomorph]

Are you saying that Haas is not just sitting around trying to figure out ways to screw their customers?

I only copied a small section but the whole post is damn good, and I hope I don't sound too patronising when I extend that to very damned good for 24 years. In my definitely not humble opinion you have your head screwed on firmly and facing in the correct direction.

Maybe Haas did not use that line of reasoning but I suspect they did because it is the valid approach; it maximises the income for Haas and minimises the cost for the majority of customers. If very few customers ever took the options Haas would be better off leaving them out and charging (more probably) to install them as a special item; which would reduce the number of customers taking them even further. If nearly all customers took the options Haas would be better off including them all and raising the base price; meaning that the few that did not want them would pay more for their machines.

[Geof]

Are you saying that Haas is not just sitting around trying to figure out ways to screw their customers?

Congratulations!!!! You get a first. This is the first time I have ever posted this sentence.

THAT IS A STUPID COMMENT.

I do admit, however, that sme of the other posters in this thread are hot on your heels.

[Xenomorph]

It was meant to be beyond stupid. It is absurd.

I am glad to be honored with a first from the most respected person on this forum.

Congratulations!!!! You get a first. This is the first time I have ever posted this sentence.

THAT IS A STUPID COMMENT.

I do admit, however, that sme of the other posters in this thread are hot on your heels.

[ihavenofish]

Congratulations!!!! You get a first. This is the first time I have ever posted this sentence.

THAT IS A STUPID COMMENT.

I do admit, however, that sme of the other posters in this thread are hot on your heels.

you do know he was being sarcastic right?


*runs*

[Xenomorph]

My sarcasm frequently gets me into trouble.

you do know he was being sarcastic right?


*runs*

[pld0vr]

HAAS is not in business to save us money, and make every choice for the benefit consumer.

Like any other company (even mine)... HAAS is in business to extract as much money out of the market as possible (our pockets) and prove a positive return to its shareholders. That is how the world works. To say... they are doing it for our best interests... is crap... they do it because you will pay anyway, for something that costs them nothing... they can get away with it... and they do.

Why do they not let you access the ram on the machine? To get more money. End of story... not to save you money... that is some marketing crap that they feed you even when giving presentations while you're still in school.

It's amazing how strong brand loyalty can be sometimes. I used to work at a ford dealership selling cars... now with domestics I am more of a Mopar fan... but amyways, they would come there, give us demos of the trucks... here is an example..

The 2010 F150 has a fully boxed hydroformed frame, 6sp auto transmission vs 5sp of last year, and the same V8 as before. What is the 0-60 like on it with the extra gear? Should be better on gas too right? Hmm.. well it's not and it's also actually slower. Wait what?

The new frame is totally boxed... sure it's stronger... it also added insane and useless weight to the truck. But, of course... every ford fanboy working there slurped it right up... it's "stronger", etc etc. When have you heard of the frame in the 2009 Ford F150 failing from not being strong enough? The damn thing was already over engineered.

It's all marketing. And of course they have the best deal around... they are made locally, probably with tax incentives, and don't have to be brought in from half way around the world... just like domestic cars.

[307startup]

First, these aren't special "CNC" memory chips. They are standard PC-type on a special board. Now they are all installed on the mother board...so if your memory fails, you are replacing that whole board...very convenient to the profit-mongers at HAAS...not convenient to any owners of HAAS equipment. But "poor" HAAS deserves to make a profit anyway it can on anything it can, right? Because I don't really own my machine, even though I paid MY money and have the machine in physical possession.

And again, no matter how many times you say it...it is NOT AN UPGRADE. Nothing is done to MY machine, because the architecture is already there (because I OWN THE MACHINE that has the upgraded memory/unitary mother board) If you think a password/code/key is worth $495-3950 to access your own property, then you sir, are a full-on twit. If someone is going to charge me that kind of money, they had better bring their happy ass out to my shop, with the necessary hardware & software, to install it. That would be work. This is rape. I don't pay for the privilege to be victimized.

There's one thing that I don't think anybody has mentioned. It's not a large point but I see it coming up all the time....we all love to talk about how inexpensive "memory" is these days, but there's quite a large difference between hardware made for desktop computers and that made for industrial devices. The reason computer memory is so cheap is simply because there's such a massive demand for it.
The difference in memory made for industrial controllers isn't so much physical, just economical. Think about how many chips are sold for use in PLCs, CNC controllers, robotics, and other equipment....the number is of course significantly less. Some of those systems are very advanced, but some (like PLCs) are decades behind "modern" computing technology yet they only have 256 MB of memory and cost thousands of dollars. Nobody is really being gouged but if you want the proven technology (with it's warrants on reliability) you know where to do. Obviously it's not to dell.com to buy some kind of microsoft system to control your production line

Now before people start yelling about how memory isn't THAT expensive, yes I'm sure it's not. But Haas has the right to charge at least *something* for the upgrade, IMO whether or not the memory grows on a giant silicone tree in the middle of their parking lot. So they charge less than a tenth of a percent of the machine's MSRP.
But I'll play the advocate and assume even that tiny amount is too much. What if Haas did the math on it and figured out it was actually cheaper (for them, us, or a combo of both) to pre-install the hardware and have people pay for a soft-upgrade rather than have a service tech physically arrive / mank around inside the electrical cabinet for x amount of time / all the costs associated with it. At this point Haas knows from their previous sales that only a certain percentage of their customers would pay for the upgrade, so they include it as a wash to their own production costs while at the same time recouping everything that's lost save the cost for the hardware itself. Haas' parts become more standardized, nobody needs to be on-site to facilitate an upgrade which makes people happy, and customers don't care either way because they'd only bother to use the memory if it served their purpose. Everyone is pleased and things continue onward uneventfully.

Well it might not be that way in reality, but I'm just trying to point out in my own way that there might be more intricate things happenning on a logistics level instead of simply "they hand memory to you THEN STEAL YOUR FIRST BORN BABY TO USE IT!!!!11" Well nothing that dramatic but myself I'm much happier trying to avoid figuring out the ins and outs of a huge multinational corporation's production docket and why they feel the need to do what they do. I know my blood pressure can vouch for it.

[Geof]

My sarcasm frequently gets me into trouble.

Where was your smilie?

I realised as I was walking home from the office that maybe I had jumped up and down too quickly. In the past I have omitted a smilie or two or three and triggered an unintended response.

[pld0vr]

If someone is going to charge me that kind of money, they had better bring their happy ass out to my shop, with the necessary hardware & software, to install it. That would be work. This is rape..

Quoted for being awesome.

[Xenomorph]

This is so funny. I am laughing my a$$ off. People get so bent out of shape for noting at all. I have been trying to see how far people will go with this – it is hilarious.

Yes, all businesses want to make money. They sell something for as much as they can. Buyers want to pay as little as possible for the item. If you think that the cost is too much then don’t buy it.

The really funny part about all of this is that I do not even own a Haas.

Also, Haas has no shareholders to answer to. It is owned by one guy.

[307startup]

The best part? For your $495-3950, they don't even come out and type in the password/code/key...YOU have to do it yourself!!! As if I would ever pay for the privilege to work...

[Geof]

And what company has grown like Haas in the past twenty years; well I do know one but it is a lot smaller.

Haas is obviously doing something right; maybe even lots of things.

[307startup]

Open mouth only AFTER you pull it from your ass...less messy that way

HAAS is a public company. Look it up. Don't speak, just listen. It's painful watching an adult who thinks, speaks and acts like a child.

This is so funny. I am laughing my a$$ off. People get so bent out of shape for noting at all. I have been trying to see how far people will go with this – it is hilarious.

Yes, all businesses want to make money. They sell something for as much as they can. Buyers want to pay as little as possible for the item. If you think that the cost is too much then don’t buy it.

The really funny part about all of this is that I do not even own a Haas.

Also, Haas has no shareholders to answer to. It is owned by one guy.