[Kool Parts]

Well I don't see a thread on this yet..so what do you know...what have you seen?
Looks like a real chip conveyor and different enclosures.

So lets hear it :wave:
Gary

[anemachinebc]

i would advise NOT to get the chip conveyor, we have one on an EC400 PP and it does nothing but clog up. They are only 4" wide, with one speed...on.

We are moving away from HAAS in our shop, we are very pleased with the doosan horizontal we bought. In fact we are getting ready to place an order for 2 more. HAAS is a decent machine, but we need a more accurate, faster, higher quality machine then they offer. They do have a nice control though.

[Geof]

I found these sentences in the link:

Enhanced motion control – Proving our passion for constant improvement, the 2010 model year VMCs use next-generation digital servomotors and high-resolution encoders on all axes. These, combined with software and motor-control advancements, mean the new machines yield better surface-finish performance than the models they replace.

Unless they have almost doubled the mass of metal in their castings I don't see any of these improvements giving a much better surface finish. The problem on Haas machines is the machine flexing and the head nodding not the control of the axes.

[anemachinebc]

I agree, our doosan hp 4000 is "the same size" as our ec 400, but the doosan is 10,000 lbs heavier. The rapids are still over twice as fast as the haas. Haas has good controls, its just everything else is lacking...everything.

[Ydna]

Except the price For guys like me that make runs of small intricate things that don't warrant the use of a horizontal nor large y-travel...well let's just say I'm looking forward to getting a new machine this year.

It would be pretty interesting if they released a top-end double column mill machine. It'd be quite a departure from their current line though so I can see why they've avoided it thus far...

[anemachinebc]

The Doosan was $290,000 list, we got it for $163,000 it sat on their floor for more than 6 months so it was automatically a demo machine, even though it wasnt used. Haas quoted us an EC 400 which was much slower only 12k spindle (10k when TSC is used) slower rapids, less bells and whistles for $155,000. The doosan with its faster spindle, and rapids shaved over 30 min off of the parts we are running. With an order of 17,000 parts 30 min is a lot. The doosan even has a chilled spindle and ball screws...haas blows air over their spindle bearings, and have nothing for the ball screws except a heat sensor.

We have been going horizontal in the shop i work in, i personally like them better. I can do 6 sides of a part in 2 opps, chips fall out of the part...no tables to clean ect. For the type of work we do they are better.

[pit202]

I hope this year will allow us to buy another VMC machine , I like my haas (TM1) , maybe because this is our first machine , I hate them because there is no one rigid part and the spindle is low power ( the price was low too ) I like the control , we know Haas machines and control ( SL-20 is a second machine ) now when the time will come we thought to buy another one ( probably VF-3 or 4 ) I was really excited for those improvements, but always when I think of it , I think if this is a good choice ? should I go somewhere else or stay with haas , I know they are not problematic , they don`t broke ( in my case ) , but what will I get for the similar price ? lets say 55-65.000 € ?
Mazak`s maybe are a little better ( how little ? ) but still twice expensive. DMG ? the cheaper ones ( ECO line ) are worse that Haas , a taiwan machine ? who know them ?

Peter

[HelicopterJohn]

My HAAS salesman told me their discounts were going away starting in 2010. I wish them luck but their sales will more that likely drop off substantially when they try to compete with others that are still offering discounts their machines.

[Kool Parts]

My HAAS salesman told me their discounts were going away starting in 2010

That's the first thing I thought of when looking at the add in Machine Tools West. In the bike world we call this BNG...(Bold New Graphics) and then raise the price.

But to be fair if the conveyor is a good one then that will be an improvement. But I am with Geof the mass and flexing is the biggest problem they face not the control.
I snagged up a new NTC Horizontal myself this year. I am amazed of the difference in rigidity and speed :banana: But I miss the Haas control already... Frigging Fanuc..everything seems backwards after so many years with the Haas
Gary

[mls]

My thing with Haas is it is so easy to use I would not look anywhere else ( for now anyway) For a job shop doing a little of everthing it seems to makeup for its weaknesses but being faster to setup and navigate the control.

I only have 2 mills for now vf3 and mini mill and they have passed my expectations so far I find I and limiting factor of the machine most of the time.

I also work part time at a shop and they have 98 vf4 2005ish doosan 20 by 40 in 12000k spindle pattet changer a few old kiwa colt milltronics tt24 15000 spindle pallet changer and just got 2008 vf2 ss a month ago and every one in the shop would rather run the haas and be faster on getting the job done most of our jobs there are under 50 pcs.

Dont get me wrong Haas is by no means the best just the easiest imo

Have a good day Mike

[stang5197]

With that new chip conveyor I hoped they came up with a better drain back for the coolant. Putting drain holes just before the auger doesn't work real well. Can't believe they still haven't done anything about that design flaw yet.

[Donkey Hotey]

From what I read, the conveyor is now an option, not standard equipment. My guess is that they redesigned the forward sheetmetal to be modular, allowing either option (similar to the lathes).

[pit202]

look what I found on the net : http://rapidshare.com/files/333054402/dNewVF.ppt.html

[Donkey Hotey]

Hmmm...that was interesting. Thanks for posting that.

We just took delivery on a VF-5, built in December. It looks like we got the last of the old design, with some of the new features. The main casting and coolant tank are the new colors but, the rest of the cabinet is old stuff and lacks the multiple augers.

I was also confused by the pneumatic grease gun in the side cabinet. Now I see that they have gone to a minimum lubrication system for the guides and they use grease. We'll see how that works. The spindle oil should last forever now that it doesn't lube the guides. The good news is reduced tramp oil in the coolant.

I noticed the new coolant manifold on the rear of the machine. It's a nice touch. The splitter manifolds on the pump are no longer necessary.

I know the control cabinet looked really bare compared to others I've been inside of. I'll bet it's the new mocon/processor board.

[Kool Parts]

DMG ? the cheaper ones ( ECO line ) are worse that Haas , a taiwan machine ? who know them ?

Peter,
I looked really hard at DMG..I love the ergonomics, love the screen, and I personally like my salesman. If I hadn't been so disrespected at IMTS I would have one of their horizontals right now.
When I was looking at them I found out that "some" of their eco line was being made in Poland, and some in Germany. You might want to check into that if you are interested in DMG.

I tried to look at this link but it wont share with me unless I sign up as a premium member. I will try back later.
Gary

[pit202]

Yes , DMG`s are made in poland , about 180km from me , I was visit them and looked how they`re made , in ECO line , they use cheaper parts and put new name " ECO "

Peter

[stang5197]

I couldn't open the picture either. With the changes are they going to add a chiller for the spindle? The air mist consumes alot of expensive compressed air.

Don't get me know wrong I really like my Haas machines but to be in the market for a new one they could use a few updates.

[Donkey Hotey]

Those of you who are successful at downloading the file, will still need to have PowerPoint to view it. The page looks like you need to upgrade to 'Premium' to download. Just click on the free option and wait for the countdown timer to expire. After that, click Download and you'll have it.

If those are the bulk of the changes, it's not anything major. It looks like sweeping incremental changes, not any radical redesigns. The new multiple auger system looks unnecessarily complex and expensive. I don't think the castings changed.

As for a spindle air, I thought that was to keep chips & coolant out of the spindle, not for cooling. The coolant flow already goes through the head casting to wick away the heat.

[stang5197]

As for a spindle air, I thought that was to keep chips & coolant out of the spindle, not for cooling. The coolant flow already goes through the head casting to wick away the heat.

You are correct they do use a air blast during the tool change, but whenever the spindle is turning, it is also consuming air to do what they call a air/oil mist to lubricate the spindle bearings.

My machines are '02 so if they changed it since then I would be interested in knowing what year.

[xiondavis]

I know the control cabinet looked really bare compared to others I've been inside of. I'll bet it's the new mocon/processor board.

Care to post a photo of the inside of your new cabinet? I'd be interested to see what redesign they've done.