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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Fadal > Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020HT
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  1. #1
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    Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020HT

    I bought all the stuff to add Renishaw probes to my 4020. I have a 1992 machine, with a 1400-4 processor.

    There are two probes, an MP4 tool setter probe, and an in-spindle wireless probe, MP10.

    the parts list:
    MP10 in spindle probe
    MI12 machine interface box (for use with the MP10 spindle probe)
    MI8 machine interface box (for use with the MP4 tool setter)
    OMM - the IR transciever that gets mounted on the machine wall to talk to the spindle probe
    Fadal PCB 0137 (1570-1) 3-probe interface
    2 solid state relays (black, 3 amp)
    3 fuses
    1 2.5A breaker.

    I'll take some pictures hopefully tomorrow or the next day and continue to document the install.



    I have a question for those who have a probe setup on their fadal already, where does the 1570-1 / pcb0137 board get mounted in the cabinet by the factory? I can mount it wherever I want to drill some holes I guess, but the board itself doesn't have any mounting holes for standoffs. The board that I have is also labeled 'snap track' so maybe that means something about the mounting style.

  2. #2
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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    Quote Originally Posted by mflux_gamblej View Post
    I have a question for those who have a probe setup on their fadal already, where does the 1570-1 / pcb0137 board get mounted in the cabinet by the factory? I can mount it wherever I want to drill some holes I guess, but the board itself doesn't have any mounting holes for standoffs. The board that I have is also labeled 'snap track' so maybe that means something about the mounting style.
    I found snaptrack. its DIN rail for various widths of PCB. TK2-48-AG that's the part number for a 3" wide board like pcb0137.

  3. #3
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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    I'm having trouble with the attached diagram. it's pretty unclear if the wires are to be shorted together, or where they are even connected. It doesn't make sense to me why they'd be shorted either.

    This is the 3-probe interface board fadal p/n PCB-0137 / 1570-1. I've been on the phone with fadalvmcparts.com, they sold me the board, and they do not have an alternate wiring diagram. If anyone has this board and probes installed on their machine, will you take a picture for me or help me clear it up?

    The board is a 24v power supply, a comparitor, and two relays. I believe the idea is to disable one of the probes while one probe is active. A probe can be made active using M-Codes / I need to install relays on the 1100 board.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That is from the 'Wiring Diagrams - Probes and Scales' fadal manual that is widely available online and is circa 2000 or so.

    Here is another image of the 1570-1 board, which shows several wires shorted to terminal position 17, this second image is in reference to the 104d, which I assume is a different cnc control. It still may shed some light on the intended use of the probe board though, or may jog some memories.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    After staring at it for a while and correlating the fadal diagram with the labeled pinouts in the renishaw manuals, and by just looking at the pcb-0137, the fadal diagram became clear enough. Pin 17 is shorted to many things because it is the com/shield pin for all devices. It's shown better on the second picture in my previous post.

    I drew up a diagram that is clearer to me at least. its attached as a PDF.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fadal 3-Probe Board - PCB-0137 - 1570-1  Wiring Diagram 01.PDF  

  5. #5
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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    I've got both the MP4 and MP10 probe hardware installed on my machine now. I'll take some pictures when its fully up and running. I still have some wiring to do in the control cabinet. The fadal is pretty easy to work on in terms of getting access to cable routing and so on.

    Here's a video showing a bench test of all the MP10 wireless spindle probe and related hardware. I did a similar test of the tool setter but didn't make a video - not as interesting.

    Renishaw MP10 Probe Bench Test with MI12, OMM - YouTube

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    Both probes are fully installed and pass the built in probe tests in the fadal control. The tool setting probe is the 'easy' one to learn and to use so I started there. Here's a video showing the MP4 tool setter in action.

    MP4 Tool Setting Probe on FADAL 4020HT - YouTube

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    MP10 spindle probe is up and running

    Here's another video, this time showing a MP10 probing cycle that finds the center of a hole. Probing is pretty speedy when you generate your own fadal macros. Programming is taking some time though and it's tough to keep all the variables straight. So far I can probe cylinders and holes, but at any location, and calculate work offset shifts.

    I noticed that the fadal macro code that stores work offsets doesn't work over DNC. can anyone verify this? some stuff works over DNC though, the cycle shown uses the L9101 R+1. and R+2. fixed subroutines. maybe if I write some subroutines that simply store info in the offsets that will work? I don't know if I can call subroutines that I made via DNC. can anyone verify that!? I'll try it out - making some subroutines that is that get put in program memory.

    The probe is pretty neat. (run in auto mode, not DNC) it updated the fixture offset by 10 thou in X, and 6 thou in Y, then everytime I run it after that it repeats by 0.0001, or 0.0000. pretty amazing! It's interesting that the offset was so big on the first run - maybe the SPI ring isn't perfectly concentric? or something... I don't know. could be another soft-jaw positioning foible; which is exactly why I bought the probes in the first place.

    here's the video of the cycle:

    Renishaw MP10 Spindle Probe fitted on FADAL 4020HT - Hole Center Locating - YouTube

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    Re: MP10 spindle probe is up and running

    Quote Originally Posted by mflux_gamblej View Post
    I noticed that the fadal macro code that stores work offsets doesn't work over DNC. can anyone verify this? some stuff works over DNC though, the cycle shown uses the L9101 R+1. and R+2. fixed subroutines. maybe if I write some subroutines that simply store info in the offsets that will work? I don't know if I can call subroutines that I made via DNC. can anyone verify that!? I'll try it out - making some subroutines that is that get put in program memory.
    this it turns out isnt right. the work offset updates do work via DNC. it only appeared that they did not because nothing changed each time I ran it via DNC. what's troubling is that when you run the program from the control's internal memory, the results change everytime in terms of the found center. and it appears to begin to oscillate and get more variability the more you run it. that seems to me that either I am having some kind of variable initialization problem? or the control is doing something very unexpected / difficult to track down.

    I verified that the DNC program does actually execute all macro statements and updates the work offsets by running it after i had run the program many times from internal memory. the work offset changed. then I ran the DNC program again, and No change. so that was confusing, and I ran it again over DNC, and it did change but only by 0.0001" in Y , 0 in x. I ran the program many times over DNC, and the results didn't change by more than +/-0.0001" each time I ran it.

    Not believing what was going on, I went back to running the program from internal memory, and bam! the result changed by 0.0002 x, 0.0005 y, then -0.0002x, -0.0002y, and it began to oscillate again.

    so I ran it via DNC again, and again the first change was large because it was vs. running from internal memory. Then the second DNC run: 0.0000 x, 0.0001 y.

    unbelievable. any thoughts? why might there be some kind of lurking variable value when run via the internal memory, but not when run over DNC? (i verified that every single character of the program in memory is the same as the DNC - so it's not that).

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    L9101 R1+9. Fixed Subroutine, Locks up CNC88 Control

    the L9101 fixed subroutines are for probing. The R1+9. sub-option is a probe calibration setup routine. the procedure is to put a setting ring on the table, put the true center above the ring, run a bore center finding probe cycle, then you run the L9101 R1+9. and type in the probe corrections that you have to calculate by hand as follows:

    L9101 R1+9. R2+.0024 X.001 Y-.0021

    here R2+ specifies a radius correction factor - i.e. if the measured radius of the inspection ring is off + or - you type in the correction here to make it exactly as the ring has printed on it. the x and y coordinates are for correcting the measured center position.



    My problem is that the L9101 R1+9. fixed subroutine locks up the controller when I run in from MDI. it doesn't make sense to run it from auto mode since you have to type in the numbers manually - I havent tried though.

    The control locks up. if you press any key nothing happens. if you hit the e-stop the machine will reset back to the command entry screen. then if you run the L9101 R1+9. routine again, the machine will lock up again, but will Not come back after an e-stop - the control is locked up hard and the mains have to be reset.

    does anyone have experience with fixed subs locking up their control? any idea if I can put in the probe offsets manually using macro language some how? I have no idea where they're stored.

    does anyone know how to display the contents of the fixed subroutines?

  10. #10
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    Re: MP10 spindle probe is up and running

    Quote Originally Posted by mflux_gamblej View Post
    this it turns out isnt right. the work offset updates do work via DNC. it only appeared that they did not because nothing changed each time I ran it via DNC. what's troubling is that when you run the program from the control's internal memory, the results change everytime in terms of the found center. and it appears to begin to oscillate and get more variability the more you run it. that seems to me that either I am having some kind of variable initialization problem? or the control is doing something very unexpected / difficult to track down.

    I verified that the DNC program does actually execute all macro statements and updates the work offsets by running it after i had run the program many times from internal memory. the work offset changed. then I ran the DNC program again, and No change. so that was confusing, and I ran it again over DNC, and it did change but only by 0.0001" in Y , 0 in x. I ran the program many times over DNC, and the results didn't change by more than +/-0.0001" each time I ran it.

    Not believing what was going on, I went back to running the program from internal memory, and bam! the result changed by 0.0002 x, 0.0005 y, then -0.0002x, -0.0002y, and it began to oscillate again.

    so I ran it via DNC again, and again the first change was large because it was vs. running from internal memory. Then the second DNC run: 0.0000 x, 0.0001 y.

    unbelievable. any thoughts? why might there be some kind of lurking variable value when run via the internal memory, but not when run over DNC? (i verified that every single character of the program in memory is the same as the DNC - so it's not that).
    I found out why there were spurious errors when run from internal memory. the problem was that I was using the SU command to display variables about the probe. SU displays the probe points P1 P2 and P3 along with the probe correction factors, and variables R0-R9

    What I didn't know is that the SU command is 'running' the program in a simulation mode, and during that simulated run, it actually did the macro math and actually updated the fixture offsets - so all of the data that I was viewing as probe results, was from that SU screen and therefore bull**** - where the runs made via DNC don't actually change the fixture offset, and when I'd run SU after the DNC program run, it would run that simulation and it would change the fixture offset by a tiny amount; leading me to believe that the DNC macro commands were actually doing something when in reality there are not!

    SO ... life probing on a fadal isn't very damn easy or convenient.

    Also, as I mentioned previously, over DNC some macro statements (or all of them?) get ignored. I'm going to have to switch to a sub-program to do my macro calcs, then return to the DNC program. wtf! the manual says explicitly that this stuff should work via DNC. maybe its my older 1400-4 processor that has buggy or otherwise not updated code vs. the available manuals. another example of DNC mode not doing anything is the #PRINT and #INPUT statements get totally ignored for some reason. I don't know why. maybe the # character doesn't work via DNC? or maybe I need to do something else? no clue.\


    If I run the program from internal memory, and use #PRINT, #INPUT statements to display the probe results, and do not run the SU command at all, the internal memory version repeats very nicely and only changes 0.0001 or 0.0000 in x or y for any given repeat.

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    Re: L9101 R1+9. Fixed Subroutine, Locks up CNC88 Control

    Quote Originally Posted by mflux_gamblej View Post
    the L9101 fixed subroutines are for probing. The R1+9. sub-option is a probe calibration setup routine. the procedure is to put a setting ring on the table, put the true center above the ring, run a bore center finding probe cycle, then you run the L9101 R1+9. and type in the probe corrections that you have to calculate by hand as follows:

    L9101 R1+9. R2+.0024 X.001 Y-.0021

    here R2+ specifies a radius correction factor - i.e. if the measured radius of the inspection ring is off + or - you type in the correction here to make it exactly as the ring has printed on it. the x and y coordinates are for correcting the measured center position.



    My problem is that the L9101 R1+9. fixed subroutine locks up the controller when I run in from MDI. it doesn't make sense to run it from auto mode since you have to type in the numbers manually - I havent tried though.

    The control locks up. if you press any key nothing happens. if you hit the e-stop the machine will reset back to the command entry screen. then if you run the L9101 R1+9. routine again, the machine will lock up again, but will Not come back after an e-stop - the control is locked up hard and the mains have to be reset.

    does anyone have experience with fixed subs locking up their control? any idea if I can put in the probe offsets manually using macro language some how? I have no idea where they're stored.

    does anyone know how to display the contents of the fixed subroutines?

    i figured this one out - you have to call the L9101 R1+9. command just before an L9101 R1+1. command. then the values in the +9 command (calibration offsets) get used in the +1 touch point finding cycle. I am unsure whether you need to call it out before each +1. command but it makes sense that you would need to since if you touch from the left, you'll have the opposite overtravel error vs. touching from the right.

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    Did you source all the components new or used? Roughly how much would one be looking to spend to get all the necessary components. I would love to have a probe on my machine.

    Great job!

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    Quote Originally Posted by rbjem View Post
    Did you source all the components new or used? Roughly how much would one be looking to spend to get all the necessary components. I would love to have a probe on my machine.

    Great job!

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2
    mp4 probe, came with mi8 interface, $250
    mp10 probe, $1200
    mi12 interface, $300
    fadal 1570-1 board, $280
    OMM, $300
    other odds and ends (conduit, fittings, fuses, solid state relays, etc.) $100

    so added up thats about $2500, but I think that I got smokin' deals on ebay for this stuff by buying mostly from 'or best offer' buy it now listings, and by messaging the sellers to talk with them about the items.

    For the most part it looked like most of the stuff was new / 'used' but not actually put into service.

    interestingly, the MP10 probe is on MSCDirect for over $7000, wow!

    for reference I also just bought a renishaw ts20 probe on thier HPA (high precision arm) + a mounting base for the HPA that I will be installing in my takisawa lathe soon. that all together was $400 - so maybe don't pay huge prices on ebay for probing stuff, since the real street value seems lower than what a lot of people are asking for.


    what put me over the edge to buy a probe system was realizing that you can put any probe that you want on the machine - all the probe does is open the contacts on the J12 connector to tell the machine it needs to stop movement when you program G31, G31.1, or use the L9101 fixed subroutines. simple. and it means that you don't have to buy the model numbers listed in the fadal manuals or that show up on the fadal menus on your control. just put any old probe on, and you're off and probing.

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    alright, back on track here. I was having trouble with software versions. I had an old as sticks v91, now I have v101 and can do all the macro codes via DNC - essential to probing routines. that was a week wasted trying to troubleshoot code that had no hope because of that old software.

    Something else that's neat / probing related is that in the JOG screen, there is now a probe tripped / not tripped display after the software upgrade (v91 didnt have this). I can also verify that the fadal 3-probe interface is doing its job by looking at this tripped / not tripped readout in JOG. You have to program M65 to have the machine pay attention to inputs from the tool setting probe (MP4 probe in my case), and you have to program M64M66 to make it pay attention to the wireless spindle probe (MP10 in my case).

    The tripped / not tripped readout does indeed only respond to the active probe system via those m-codes when I trip the probes just by pushing on them a little. So if M65 (tool setter) is active, and you push on it, the jog screen says tripped, but if you then push on the spindle probe, nothing happens.

    And its complement, if M64M66 is active, and you push on the spindle probe, the jog screen says tripped, but if you push on the tool setter nothing happens - thats the whole point of the 3-probe interface.. make sure that you don't get a false positive probe signal from the probe that you're not currently using. super important! imagine what might happen if you were setting the fixture offset with the spindle probe, but it got its touch off signal falsely from the tool setter for whatever reason - it would store the fixture offset at that random / false position and lead to a big automated crash. geeze.

    Good thing it all works as intended. I do not know if this lock-out worked correctly when using the previous v91 software - it probably did. in the newer v101 that tripped/not tripped indicator in the JOG screen makes verification easy

    I'll have to get back on the programming horse and get the other kinds of probing routines going now. The macros over DNC trouble, and swapping 1610 boards / software upgrading was covered on two other threads. thought I'd keep the subjects separate.

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    Here's a video showing the probing of a boss. There are actually two probe cycles strung together here so that I could probe the Y center, at an X position that is not the X center. I'm just about to a point in my programming that I have enough probing cycles figured out that I likely will just program more as needed, but I won't do the full suite just for the hell of it.

    Renishaw MP10 Probe on FADAL 4020HT - Boss Center Finding Cycles - YouTube

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    Here's a video of the probe integrated right into the machining cycle over DNC. it's pretty revealing to see that the fixture offset is different by up to 10 thou each time I load that fixture back onto the machine. this particular part doesn't have tight specs, but is called out as +/-0.005". Seeing all of this drift, I'm glad I have the probe for this part as I'd scrap 25 at a time if I didn't. Probe was installed just in time.

    In-Cycle Probing on FADAL 4020HT Using a Renishaw MP-10 - YouTube

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    I got around to coding up some in-cycle tool length and diameter measurements using the MP4 tool setting probe. This got put on the back burner for a couple weeks. I have never used the diameter comp functions built into the control before, but will have to now if I want to acutally use my diameter measurements. Hopefully my cam software will more or less deal with it for me / will know the G-codes. One thing I'm confused about is 'wear' offsets vs. diameter offsets. This is a setting that I can choose in my cam's post processor. currently it is set to wear offsets.

    I am pretty sure I've read about wear offsets with respect to my fanuc 6t-b that controls my cnc lathe. On that control you set the tool offsets, then you go farther into the table, and store the wear comp. values there and update those throughout the part run rather than updating the main tool offsets. This is still confusing to me (ill learn first hand within a matter of days..). Should a wear offset have a magnitude of like 0.003" or something? So my cam will spit out some weirdo tool radius / nominal value, then the machine will add / subtract a small number like .003 or .001 or whatever to 'wear comp'? it seems to me that full diameter comp. is mathematically identical - must just depend on your control and how it expects to operate. maybe wear comps are nice since you can just type in the nominal diameter like 0.25" and then the machine will measure the wear offset with the probe. That way when a tool breaks or chips out, you can shove a new one in there and just update the wear offset?

    It still seems like pretty much more work than its worth. In my mind diameter / radius comp should just be that and I dont see what wear comp means or why its good. any experience with this out there?

    anyway, here's a video of my fadal measuring it's tool's length and diameter straight in the g-code over DNC / not in a UT menu cycle. This will allow me to hopefully increase my part accuracy even further since it will account for not only tool diameter accuracty (i.e. 0.2500" endmill was acutally 0.2490"), but it will also measure the run-out since the tool spins while being measured, and I can do it as often as I like such as right before the tool gets used in a finishing pass ..awesome!

    Renishaw MP4 on a FADAL 4020HT - Measuring Tool Length and Diameter - YouTube

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    Re: Adding Renishaw Probes (tool setter, and wireless spindle probe) to a FADAL 4020H

    Quote Originally Posted by mflux_gamblej View Post
    One thing I'm confused about is 'wear' offsets vs. diameter offsets. This is a setting that I can choose in my cam's post processor. currently it is set to wear offsets.

    I am pretty sure I've read about wear offsets with respect to my fanuc 6t-b that controls my cnc lathe. On that control you set the tool offsets, then you go farther into the table, and store the wear comp. values there and update those throughout the part run rather than updating the main tool offsets. This is still confusing to me (ill learn first hand within a matter of days..). Should a wear offset have a magnitude of like 0.003" or something? So my cam will spit out some weirdo tool radius / nominal value, then the machine will add / subtract a small number like .003 or .001 or whatever to 'wear comp'? it seems to me that full diameter comp. is mathematically identical - must just depend on your control and how it expects to operate. maybe wear comps are nice since you can just type in the nominal diameter like 0.25" and then the machine will measure the wear offset with the probe. That way when a tool breaks or chips out, you can shove a new one in there and just update the wear offset?

    It still seems like pretty much more work than its worth. In my mind diameter / radius comp should just be that and I dont see what wear comp means or why its good. any experience with this out there?
    I read an older modern machine shop article online today describing wear offsets as basically a way to make it easier for operators to type in the difference between the spec, and the measurements made on the parts. You can do a full diameter or radius offset comp. by doing exactly the same thing, but you have to do the math to include the diameter, and the difference between your part and the print, and type in longer numbers into your calculator and then into the cnc control. So the ideai is that it helps to avoid operator error - and let me say, despite having a fancy engineering degree, its those kind of small add/subract and type in some numbers kind of math that has scrapped more parts made by me than any other type of math - so wear offsets as a way to simplify math and running the control; that's a good idea.

    unfortunately most machines other than lathes don't support them (maybe newer mill controls do?) as is true with the fadal. so, you can either write up some custom macros to get it all going in terms of wear, or you can just use full diameter / radius numbers.

    basically, the probe systems are in the identical spirit of the wear offset concept - make it easier / less error prone to run the machine. so I'll be setting my cam to diameter or whatever non-wear comp. type and testing out the necessary g-codes to get diameter comp. working and using the tool setter's diameter values, asap. I'll see if my parts come out any better. I usually hit within 2 thou right now so maybe it will get better.

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    More on Wear vs. Diameter/Radius Offsets

    Today I went ahead and began running programs using my MP4 probe's measured tool diameters. I ran in to problems with the Cutter Radius Compensation functions (G40 - G42) for a couple of reasons.
    - when using CRC the programmed internal radius cannot ever be smaller than the tool radius or you'll get an error
    - my CAM software was setup to Not put compensated paths on tool centerline so the first time I ran with compensation active, the part got scrapped because the machine applied a full radius compensation to a toolpath that was already offset by the tool radius in my CAM software

    This is when I thought about it and discovered that wear offsets have a huge added bonus of being able to program small internal arcs, such as lead in / lead out arcs that are smaller than the tool radius (which are necessary all the damn time!). If the tool diameter in the machine's control is stored as (real tool diameter - expected tool diameter) then the values should be something within +/- 0.005". So, if you program a typical lead-in arc, you can do one down to 0.0025" without worrying about getting a 'diameter too small' error. If you do things this way, storing the error of the tool diameter instead of the tool diameter, then you are using Wear offsets.

    Due to the 'tool diameter too small' error / having to program arcs with a diameter greater than or equal to the diameter of your tool - wear offsets are the only way to go.

    One consequence of doing this with a fadal that has a tool probe is that typically when you run the tool length measurements the machine offsets the tool by the radius so that it will measure the flute tips. It uses the diameters in the tool table so if you store small numbers like .003" rather than the tool diameter, then you will only offset the tool by 1/2 that when you run a tool length measurement. That pretty much means that you need to write custom tool length measurement code for your probe. This isn't so bad, as if you're using the CRC functions and measuring the tool diameter using the probe - you had to write custom code anyway. Might as well write a couple of nice macro programs to measure tool lengths, or just do all of it in-cycle.

    Currently I can measure tool lengths and diameters in cycle, and am storing the diameter errors as measured / calculated by my MP4 probe in the tool table. My CAM software does not output the g-codes any differently than it would if not using CRC, so the machine will just offset the path by 1/2 the small tool diameter error instead of the full radius. I will need to write a program to measure tool lengths when loading tools - which will be similar to the one that gets used in the UT menu.

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    Re: More on Wear vs. Diameter/Radius Offsets

    I just got the Fadal 1570-1 3 probe board and the list of fuses, relays and circuit breaker for the 1100-1 pcb.
    I have a TS-27R tool length probe with MI8 and an MP12 with OMM and MI12,
    The Fadal diagram does not show that the MI8 interface is used with the TS-27R probe, but I saw that you are using your MI8.
    From where do you feed it 24VDC? Do you use the same 6 and 7 points on the 1570-1 as where the MI12 gets 24VDC?
    Did you try to connect the tool lenght probe direct to the 1570-1 as per the Fadal drawing?
    It looks like the 1570-1 board should have two ice cube relays, but my board came from Fadal VMC without relays.
    If your board have them could you have a look for a part number, please?

    All the best,

    Andy

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