[DDgitfiddle]

I have one of the round 2.2kW Chinese air cooled spindles running with a Hitachi VFD. Probably the longest single day's work was about 2 solid hours of carving out a hardwood bowl with about 0.2" depth of cut. I think I was running around 200 IPM and 18k RPM, but I could be remembering incorrectly. Either way, it was making chips, not dust and there was no burning on the wood, even with cherry which is pretty sensitive to heat. The motor was a little warm to the touch, but far from hot. These motors pull air from the top and push it out by the collet to help avoid covering the inside with dust. Doesn't really do much to blow chips out of the way, but seems to keep the motor cool. I just had an aversion to running water lines on an electric machine. The potential for leaks and corrosion inside the motor spooked me. I know lots of machines do this, especially with higher spindle powers, but I figured that it was worth a shot for the price.

The motor I have claims a minimum speed of 10k RPM. I think I have run it at 9k RPM to cut aluminum, but I had limited success...broken bits, bad surface finish...still learning.

The square one you are looking at would have been my preference, but I didn't see one like it at that price when I bought mine. Double check that the hole pattern matches up with the Saturn...I remember that being one of the limitations I ran into.

-Robert

[ger21]

Acturally the Square drive ones have two wires connected to an internal thermistor.

Do you have a link or something that shows that? I've never seen those on any chinese spindles, other than ATC spindles.

If the motor is not double insulated it needs to be grounded in some manner.

Yes, but the Chinese leave that up to you.

[GME]

Acturally the Square drive ones have two wires connected to an internal thermistor. If the motor is not double insulated it needs to be grounded in some manner.

You have to remove the top cap and connect the ground wire to it. I replaced the connector that came with my spindle and connected the ground wire to one of the mounting screws. The subject of the lack of ground has come up often. I do not remember hearing anyone say there was a connected ground wire. Also, I've never seen a Chinese spindle advertised as double insulated. IMHO, not worth taking the chance.

Here's something to think about. Water and electricity in close proximity inside the router cap - at least on the water cooled models. One cracked o-ring, and the operator could fry. I thought about that when I was in the planning stage. I had the same issue come up when building an electric brewery, so I had been there before. I decided to use a GFCI breaker to mitigate the risk. Wrong!!!! Turns out that VFDs cause GFCI breakers to trip the instant the VFD is turned on. Apparently, has to do with high frequency noise. Schneider Electric suggests that there is a special GFI that is immune from noise. They refer you to a company called Bender for it, but does not recommend it. Bender Inc. - The Leader in Ground Fault Monitoring and Ground Fault Protection Equipment. I found the product: https://www.benderinc.com/products/g...ifeguardr-gfci. Looks expensive, so I stupidly decided to take my chances. So far, so good.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Gary , A ground could be as simple as a stranded #12 or #14 wire connected to the motor and run back to the machine ground. It does not need to be In the plug to be a legal / safe ground. GFI's and welders, VFD's and other RFI generators do not play well. Your ground is all need to be safe. Before GFI's, as long as the User did not cut off the grounding prong or plug you were protected. I am guessing and have not tried, there is enough metal connected between the motor clamp and the router metal frame to act as a backup ground. I might take an ohm meter this morning to see.

[wmgeorge]

Do you have a link or something that shows that? I've never seen those on any chinese spindles, other than ATC spindles.



Yes, but the Chinese leave that up to you.

Gerry the one that CNC Router parts sells has a PDF diagram you can look at that shows the thermistor wire connections. Where they connect to I am not sure? Since the Chinese low powered ones are a copy, I am assuming they also have the same. 90% of the time the Chinese venders do not have any idea of what they are peddling.

[wmgeorge]

I have one of the round 2.2kW Chinese air cooled spindles running with a Hitachi VFD.

Robert which VFD did you buy? I don't think those Chinese ones on eBay with No documentation is what I really want. I have installed them before and even with the doc's its not a cake walk. I think I purchased here in US but I would need to find that order someplace.

[ger21]

Gerry the one that CNC Router parts sells has a PDF diagram you can look at that shows the thermistor wire connections. Where they connect to I am not sure? Since the Chinese low powered ones are a copy, I am assuming they also have the same. 90% of the time the Chinese venders do not have any idea of what they are peddling.

My guess is they don't use the temp sensor.
The UGRA spindle has the same model number as the CNCRP spindle, but their diagram does not list the temp sensor. My guess is that most if not all of the cheaper chinese spindles do not have the temp sensor.

I don't think those Chinese ones on eBay with No documentation is what I really want

The Huanyangs actually come with a decent printed manual, although it'n not nearly as comprehensive as a Hitachi manual. But it doesn't need to be, as it doesn't have nearly as many features. It just runs the spindle pretty well, at 40% of the price.

[beltramidave]

Here is another source for spindles and vfd's. I have the 2.2kw air cooled spindle purchased here, but it is paired with a Automation Direct GS3 VFD. Works great and have never had any issues with heat.
https://www.automationtechnologiesin...e/cnc-spindle/

[wmgeorge]

Here is another source for spindles and vfd's. I have the 2.2kw air cooled spindle purchased here, but it is paired with a Automation Direct GS3 VFD. Works great and have never had any issues with heat.
https://www.automationtechnologiesin...e/cnc-spindle/

I have purchased from these folks before and actually did not know they had all that now? Thank you.

[mactec54]

Gary , A ground could be as simple as a stranded #12 or #14 wire connected to the motor and run back to the machine ground. It does not need to be In the plug to be a legal / safe ground. GFI's and welders, VFD's and other RFI generators do not play well. Your ground is all need to be safe. Before GFI's, as long as the User did not cut off the grounding prong or plug you were protected. I am guessing and have not tried, there is enough metal connected between the motor clamp and the router metal frame to act as a backup ground. I might take an ohm meter this morning to see.

That is not correct, the Ground must be in the shielded cable for these spindles and shields and Ground correctly terminated , if you use a separate Ground wire for this, it works like and antenna and you will have noise problems

The Ground is not only for safety in this case, when using a VFD Drive the Ground is draining the Rotor voltage to Ground so is carrying a voltage all the time the motor / spindle is running

You should no better, unless you Ground and bond every moving part of your machine you can't have a true Ground through your spindle mount

You are using a VFD Drive and a 400Hz Ac 3 ph motor/ spindle all wiring must comply to have a noise free system

[wmgeorge]

That is not correct, the Ground must be in the shielded cable for these spindles and shields and Ground correctly terminated , if you use a separate Ground wire for this, it works like and antenna and you will have noise problems

The Ground is not only for safety in this case, when using a VFD Drive the Ground is draining the Rotor voltage to Ground so is carrying a voltage all the time the motor / spindle is running

You should no better, unless you Ground and bond every moving part of your machine you can't have a true Ground through your spindle mount

You are using a VFD Drive and a 400Hz Ac 3 ph motor/ spindle all wiring must comply to have a noise free system

Who are you? What is rotor voltage, this is a three phase motor there is No voltage in the rotor the is not a DC motor. The only voltage induced in the rotor stays in the rotor :banana:.

I have installed hundreds of VFD's in a real world application the wiring was all installed in metal conduit. Not tiny little 3 Hp ones but in an industrial plant, production line. BTW quote me the section in the NEC that requires shielding wire, perhaps i missed something?

To clear up your confusion here is a Link on basic 3 phase motor operation, yes you need to understand the basics before you post> https://sciencing.com/threephase-mot...s-5191973.html

[GME]

That is not correct, the Ground must be in the shielded cable for these spindles and shields and Ground correctly terminated , if you use a separate Ground wire for this, it works like and antenna and you will have noise problems

The Ground is not only for safety in this case, when using a VFD Drive the Ground is draining the Rotor voltage to Ground so is carrying a voltage all the time the motor / spindle is running

You should no better, unless you Ground and bond every moving part of your machine you can't have a true Ground through your spindle mount

You are using a VFD Drive and a 400Hz Ac 3 ph motor/ spindle all wiring must comply to have a noise free system

I've read a number posts about grounding at the spindle. The consensus supports grounding shielded cable under the cap. I'm far from an expert on the subject, so I tend to go with "conventional wisdom" on the subject.

I have a question regarding ferrite ring toroid cores. I ran across a single post regarding someone with noise problems. I cannot remember for sure who replied, but I think it was someone from PMDX. Anyway, the responder suggested adding a ferrite ring toroid core - wrapping the cable from the VFD to the spindle around the core inside the control box close to the VFD. I was in the process of building out my CNC when I read the posts, so I tried the suggestion as a hedge against a noise problem. I did not try running the machine without the ring installed, so I don't know whether or not it helped. Fortunately, I've not experienced a noise problem (no lost steps, etc). I believe it safe to say that a ring core would not be a substitute for proper grounding, including shield grounding at the VFD end. What is your opinion about using a ring core? Does it help, hurt, or make no real difference?

Thank you,

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Most modern drives have circuits that kill the nose incoming either RFI or EMI your concern is broadcasting the spurs or spikes from the VFD to the motor. They do that to comply with FCC regulations on interference to radio or TV's. As a Licensed Amateur radio operator or Ham I know about that. Yes the ferrite core can't hurt.

Its not a NEC Code requirement that shielded power cable be ran to the motor. As good wiring practice its a good idea to limit interference, commercially all ours was run in conduit or flex conduit or liquid tight. I plan on wiring mine with shielded cable. I will ground mine per Code. The shielding is just that, only grounded on one end it can not be a grounding conductor. Of course the only place you can ground is at the control panel.

[GME]

Most modern drives have circuits that kill the nose incoming either RFI or EMI your concern is broadcasting the spurs or spikes from the VFD to the motor. They do that to comply with FCC regulations on interference to radio or TV's. As a Licensed Amateur radio operator or Ham I know about that. Yes the ferrite core can't hurt.

Its not a NEC Code requirement that shielded power cable be ran to the motor. As good wiring practice its a good idea to limit interference, commercially all ours was run in conduit or flex conduit or liquid tight. I plan on wiring mine with shielded cable. I will ground mine per Code. The shielding is just that, only grounded on one end it can not be a grounding conductor. Of course the only place you can ground is at the control panel.

I get what you're saying about FCC regs on interference and NEC code. However, we're talking about relatively low cost Chinese made units that probably aren't compliant with anything, except they run. They don't even bother representing that they are compliant. We may be talking about what "should be" versus what actually is. I suppose the fact that folks do, in fact, experience noise problems, may say something about the practical world of Chinese VFDs and spindles.

I've had some experience with Chinese products when I was building out an electric brewery. My setup should have worked with 30 amp @ 240v solid state relays. Some of the junk that's being sold wouldn't hold up to 20 amps without frying. I had to go larger, 40 amps, just to be sure that the SSRs were large enough to safely carry the load. Even then, I had one 40 amp SSR fail within a day's use. And yes, the SSRs are mounted on a very large, and way more than adequate, heat sink, and the heat sink is exposed to open air. Just saying - we gotta know what we're buying, when go with the Chinese import stuff.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

Frankly the only two drives I have used lately is Toshiba and Hitachi. Never used one of the Chinese made or branded one so I can not speak for those. Its made and sells cheap because they took short cuts someplace.

I am using shielded on mine because I am a Ham Radio person and I know the interference issues. Heck I had a lot of noise in my AM car radio (talk radio) when I pulled into my driveway. Turned out to be a POS Chinese made 12 volt switching power supply powering the LED lights under the kitchen counter.

[mactec54]

Who are you? What is rotor voltage, this is a three phase motor there is No voltage in the rotor the is not a DC motor. The only voltage induced in the rotor stays in the rotor :banana:.

I have installed hundreds of VFD's in a real world application the wiring was all installed in metal conduit. Not tiny little 3 Hp ones but in an industrial plant, production line. BTW quote me the section in the NEC that requires shielding wire, perhaps i missed something?

To clear up your confusion here is a Link on basic 3 phase motor operation, yes you need to understand the basics before you post> https://sciencing.com/threephase-mot...s-5191973.html

There is no confusion, it's called common mode voltage and it is created by and unbalanced power supply

Yes you are missing something alright, all VFD driven AC 3Ph motors have Rotor voltage, the amount depends on how balanced the supply voltage is

You are running on an unbalanced single phase power supply which makes this even worse, the more out of balance the power supply is the worse and higher the rotor voltage becomes, this is very common and is why most AC motor manufactures offer shaft Ground of there motors that are being driven by a VFD Drive

[wmgeorge]

Well thats a lot of theory, and thats about it. The VFD converts un-balanced AC to DC and then back again to regulated Hz and voltage out. If your theory is true then you would not be able to run our 3 phase spindle motors off single phase? Once again VFD 101 Link for you to learn on > Variable Frequency Drive Working Principle

It has Nothing to do with a dangerous voltage being induced on the rotor jumping out to kill un-suspecting users. Yes the motor needs to be grounded to protect against faults. Period. The theory you presented against bearing erosion from stray currents is just that and does not apply to this discussion.


Junior high or middle school students insult one another grown up adults discuss issues.

[wmgeorge]

This has nothing to do with the discussion of being electrocuted by stray 3 phase motor currents from the rotor, but bearing erosion has been around for at least 30 years, thought to be caused by VFD drives. Not all motors are affected but if you see spindles being offered with ceramic bearings, now you know one of the reasons. It seems grounding the motor as a cure presented by others, does not drain off the VFD induced rotor current.

Interesting paper on the subject > https://www.est-aegis.com/TechPaper.pdf

[mactec54]

This has nothing to do with the discussion of being electrocuted by stray 3 phase motor currents from the rotor, but bearing erosion has been around for at least 30 years, thought to be caused by VFD drives. Not all motors are affected but if you see spindles being offered with ceramic bearings, now you know one of the reasons. It seems grounding the motor as a cure presented by others, does not drain off the VFD induced rotor current.

Interesting paper on the subject > https://www.est-aegis.com/TechPaper.pdf

No it was to do with Grounding I see you have been busy trying to educate yourself on the subject, yes this has been known for a very long time Bearing erosion has been around longer than 30 years it been known since the AC motor was first invented

This is not theory it is fact and using single phase power supply is the worst because it is not balanced, 3 Ph power is balanced to the degree of what voltage each leg has if these are all different then you will have Rotor Voltage by a percentage of what the voltage is mismatched

Can you be electrocuted from AC motor Rotor Voltage, you sure can so don't be so sure off yourself when you don't know what you are talking about that is why Grounding these spindles correctly is important

You don't get it at all so a Motor or Spindle with Ceramic Bearings where do you think the rotor voltage goes to, it goes out through the cutting tool if you are cutting a metal part, if cutting a non-metallic part then when you go to change the cutter if using a Touch-Probe then it gets zapped which has happened by zone users, but if you touch it your self to change the tool then you get zapped

[wmgeorge]

Grounding the motor frame has nothing to do with grounding the rotor, I am sorry you do not understand that? Please read the PDF I posted if your not understanding.

IF your changing the Tool while its powered up and running you have more to worry about than some low voltage AC!!! :nono:

I have noticed a pattern with your posts. You always seem to Insult, degrade, or otherwise put down the poster.

Forum users can verify that by going to your Profile and looking at your Posts.

The majority of your posts are insulting to the user and then you post something you have found on Google that may or may not be true. You seem to lack real world experience, just what you find off the internet?

I have posted my experience and credentials where are yours?