[Rockwall]

How difficult would it be to equip a Tormach with an automatic tool changer? I did a search on the internet and found this one that says it’s designed to work with the Tormach tooling system:

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2937

Has anyone here tried it or heard any feedback about it?

[stedgar]

I haven't seen or heard of anyone with this tool changer on a tormach. I have watched their video which shows the changer working on a small benchtop mill. It appears to be a well thought out device. I wonder if they have macros or add-ins for Mach-3. I don't want to run two computers and they don't seem to offer the device as a add-on to the computer system that runs your Tormach now. There are too many questions about this device for me to get interested in yet. They don't directly say it will work with our Tormachs that I could read on their website. Do they have pictures of the device on a Tormach? Maybe you could talk them into letting you review it for all of us who own and use PCNC 1100's.

I hope this device does develope into a useful option we can use. They should produce a video of it mounted on a Tormach.

HAve Fun
Steve

[robinhuxd]

Could not open the link from China.

[TimTheToolMan]

How difficult would it be to equip a Tormach with an automatic tool changer? I did a search on the internet and found this one that says it’s designed to work with the Tormach tooling system:

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2937

Has anyone here tried it or heard any feedback about it?

Here's the thinking that I went through. I have to think of this from a business standpoint, hobbyists have to deal with different economics...namely the house ways and means committee, [insert wife's name here]. :argue:

Let's assume that the system can, indeed, be installed on a Tormach with a few custom brackets, etc. Further, let's assume that Mach can interface with it successfully and that you don't need a separate computer to operate it. Two very big "If's".

System cost: $1,499 (Sale price)
Rough cost to install system on a Tormach (IMHO): $500
Cost to modify all your tool holders (assume 24): $229.75
Total cost = $2,228.75

Now, from the point where the Tormach comes to a stop at the tool change position, it currently takes us about 20 seconds to change a tool. It can be done faster of course, but we don't do this 24/7 around here.

Using the tool changer video and a stop watch, I see that this system can do it in 12 seconds. So, the time saved per tool change is 8 seconds.

Now let's assume that you're spending at least $25/hr for the machine (gotta pay it off sometime!) and the operator's wages combined. Very conservative, IMHO.

The tool changer then saves me about $.06 per tool change. That's 37,129 tool changes to break even! At about 4 tool changes per part...that's 9,282 parts machined!

Bottom line...No doubt, the "cool factor" is very high, but for our business it's a VERY bad investment.

That's my ridiculously long 2 cents!

[philbur]

I think the point of the tool changer is your operator doesn't need to be in constant attendance, or even be paying attention as to when the next tool change is due. So the diffential cost is in the "no need to hover".

I have my reservations for other reasons. If you are going to leave it unattended, which is the whole point of an ATC ,it had better be 100% reliable or the potential damage could render the purchase price irrelevant.

Phil

Here's the thinking that I went through. I have to think of this from a business standpoint, hobbyists have to deal with different economics...namely the house ways and means committee, [insert wife's name here]. :argue:

Let's assume that the system can, indeed, be installed on a Tormach with a few custom brackets, etc. Further, let's assume that Mach can interface with it successfully and that you don't need a separate computer to operate it. Two very big "If's".

System cost: $1,499 (Sale price)
Rough cost to install system on a Tormach (IMHO): $500
Cost to modify all your tool holders (assume 24): $229.75
Total cost = $2,228.75

Now, from the point where the Tormach comes to a stop at the tool change position, it currently takes us about 20 seconds to change a tool. It can be done faster of course, but we don't do this 24/7 around here.

Using the tool changer video and a stop watch, I see that this system can do it in 12 seconds. So, the time saved per tool change is 8 seconds.

Now let's assume that you're spending at least $25/hr for the machine (gotta pay it off sometime!) and the operator's wages combined. Very conservative, IMHO.

The tool changer then saves me about $.06 per tool change. That's 37,129 tool changes to break even! At about 4 tool changes per part...that's 9,282 parts machined!

Bottom line...No doubt, the "cool factor" is very high, but for our business it's a VERY bad investment.

That's my ridiculously long 2 cents!

[TimTheToolMan]

I think the point of the tool changer is your operator doesn't need to be in constant attendance, or even be paying attention as to when the next tool change is due. So the diffential cost is in the "no need to hover".

I have my reservations for other reasons. If you are going to leave it unattended, which is the whole point of an ATC ,it had better be 100% reliable or the potential damage could render the purchase price irrelevant.

Phil

Phil,

I'll have to admit, I hadn't considered that perspective. However, the only cnc machine that can be left safely unattended in our shop is our cnc driller. This is probably why I hadn't thought of that angle.

Given that someone is always attending, then, I would also argue that an atc gives me nothing in the way of increased capabilities...regardless of the cost. I can think of a lot of more beneficial places to spend $2200...4th axis, probes, etc. that would expand our capabilities.

Thanks for the other perspective, though.

Tim

[levelzero]

Personally I would love an ATC. I run allot of smaller parts made with 0.125 and smaller tooling. These parts can run without supervision and with an ATC I could design parts that used more tools or had longer cycle times as well as run these parts throughout the night. This would let me run the larger part that need supervision during the evening/day.

[wwendorf]

I'm going to be building an ATC. I'm just going to do it similar to how Hoss did his. Why spend the money on a fancy gizmo that swings tools out of the way when you can have the mill pick the tools up from the end of the table. I have some extra space to burn on my table as the longest parts are only 10" long.

Wade

[stedgar]

Okay I'll bite Who is Hoss and where can I see his design. I have my ideas for one but it would be column mounted. I need my table space for the fourth axis I use a lot. I've worked on so many over the years I think it would be a good feature for the same reasons you quoted. Long runs of small intricate parts.

Have fun and please let me know where to see Hoss's design.

[wwendorf]

Here's his website and the link to the ATC project:

http://www.hossmachine.info/projects_7.html

If i'm ambitious enough, I have an idea for an ATC that is automated, but for now, the one like Hoss made should be enough for my immediate needs.

Wade


Wade

[philbur]

You could mount the "Hoss" design above the rotary table or you could mount the tools in a single row at the front or back of the table.

I also think this design is a good starting point. Its reliability will be high because of its simplicity, there are effectively no moving parts. The speed of the change will be slower than a manual change so the only benefit is if you are able to leave the machine unattended.

I know nothing about commercial ATCs but it would seem to me that some built in fail-safe features would be a good idea. You need to look at the consequence of a tool change not happening as intended. A starting point with respect to protection might be in the form of a micro switch for each tool station in order to confirm that all the tools that should be in the ATC are and that the tool that should be in the spindle is not still in the ATC.

Also if the machine is incorrectly positioned when replacing a tool it would try to push the ATC through the table, not good. So A micro switch on the limit of travel for the spring loaded tool rack could also provide a signal to stop the machine.

Just some thoughts.

Phil

Okay I'll bite Who is Hoss and where can I see his design. I have my ideas for one but it would be column mounted. I need my table space for the fourth axis I use a lot. I've worked on so many over the years I think it would be a good feature for the same reasons you quoted. Long runs of small intricate parts.

Have fun and please let me know where to see Hoss's design.

[wwendorf]

I think the biggest failsafe is that the operator needs to make 100% sure that he has homed the machine before doing any tool changes. A limit or stop switch on the tool rack is definitely something I'm planning to incorporate myself. Just to be safe. Dang, Looks like I'm going to need to get myself another parallel port to support an ATC and a power drawbar and a few limit switches.

I'm not too concerned with the speed as that is adjustable in the macro file.

Wade

[levelzero]

My issue is I need my full table as I design my runs to use the full space. I figured using a stepper motor to extend and retract the ATC tray would work the best. I was also researching using a stepper for the drawbar but the torque required seems to be a bit of an issue given the very limited space in the motor housing.

If it doesn't pick up the tool thats not a problem as the run will just continue without the tool. But if it doesn't drop the tool before grabbing the next one then it would be disastrous.

I hadn't though about the limit switches, but that is a great point. I wonder if you could add another limit switch in line with one of the current ones? The once you drop the tool simply position the head over the switch, if it trips then the tool wasn't changed. This could also be used to verify that the current tool is roughly the right length.

[helocat]

How difficult would it be to equip a Tormach with an automatic tool changer? I did a search on the internet and found this one that says it’s designed to work with the Tormach tooling system:

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2937

Has anyone here tried it or heard any feedback about it?

That is a clever little changer! Only think I think its missing is a guard to keep chips off the tool holder. Would be cool to see on of those on a Tormach. Wonder if the controller for the mill would be able to run the changer. Not a lot o value unless the M code in the program could operate the changer.

[philbur]

Depends on what the next operation is. For example: what if the machine tried to ream a hole that wasn't there.

Phil

If it doesn't pick up the tool thats not a problem as the run will just continue without the tool.

[wwendorf]

Well, I just ordered the air cyclinder and the solenoid in order to build the power drawbar on Hoss' website. I'll try and do a build log or something when I start it.

Wade

[helocat]

Depends on what the next operation is. For example: what if the machine tried to ream a hole that wasn't there.

Phil

It also would not be good for the draw bar system to close with nothing in the spindle. Most common problem running ATC is a tool brakes, then the rest of the operation is scrap or you brake more tools like how philbur pointed out. Some full size machines run a tool checker that sits in the corner of the table. Once the tool run is finished it touches the tool checker in a Z motion. The checker then confirms the tool is still there and everything keeps going.

Mark

[Tormach]

There have been several people who have contacted us at Tormach with ideas concerning an ATC specific to the Tormach PCNC 1100. All of them have approached the problem using a slightly modified version of our TTS tooling, similar to the small ATC described at Little Machine Shop.

To our knowledge, two of the companies are actively in development. There may be others. The companies we know of occasionally update us on their status and we expect they will each have something to reveal to the public in a few months.

We support 3rd party developers of ancillary equipment wherever possible. Usually support is in the form of technical information or review.

One idea that has been floated around the office is the creation of a design contest, offering a prize for the best design of a PCNC 1100 accessory. We would welcome any comments or suggestions along those lines.

Greg Jackson
Tormach

[highspeedmazak]

I like that idea very much. All of you at tormach every day are creating a better and better company I'm impressed. Keep up the good work. And please have that contest.

[Willyb]

My issue is I need my full table as I design my runs to use the full space. I figured using a stepper motor to extend and retract the ATC tray would work the best.

Hi levelzero

Have you thought of using an Air Cylinder to extend & retract your ATC Tray? I think this would be simpler to control over a Stepper Motor. All that would be required is a simple positive signal to activate the Air Solenoid that would supply air to the cylinder to extend your ATC Tray. You could use either a spring to return the Tray of use a double acting Cylinder & Solenoid. With a simple adjustable stop, the ATC Tray would always extend to the exact same position.

My thoughts for a ATC for my Tormach would be to use the above setup to extend & retract, but use a round wheel driven by a Stepper Motor to advance the wheel to the next Tool. One big advantage of this setup is that the Tool change position is always the same. All that is required is to advance the Wheel a set number of degrees times the number of Tools you need to turn the Wheel. With the Tray setup you must remember the position of every Tool.

I can see Chain wear becoming a problem with the Littlemachineshop.com ATC setup. When the Chain stretches all of your Tool Positions are now going to be off. Also the lack of proper swarf protection is going to be a problem.

Interested in any other thoughts on a Automatic Tool Changer for the Tormach CNC Milling Machine.

Regards
Willy