[Woodenspoke]

I am not here to figure out how to build a CNC winder but find out about the programing. The winder will be build using two steppers

1. This stepper moves a set number of 360 Deg turns CW or CCW and holds the pickup bobbin.
2. This stepper is running a shaft; attached to this shaft is a device to move wire CW and CCW a short distance .5" more or less.

Basically winding wire so simple but yet so difficult.

A bit if pickup info is you don't want even nice motor kind if wire placement you need to be able to adjust the second stepper or transverse screw to lay down uneven winds. Even=Bad randon or odd pattern=Good.

OK now I have a small mill so I don't need any basics on making or creating or info on steppers and counts per rotation, but just figuring out how to get a high end program made to generate code for a 2 or 3 dimensional shapes to generate the simple code needed here I don't get.

Learning to read G Code and make the program myself was one answer anybody else have any ideas.

[Switcher]

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[Woodenspoke]

Sounds like a simple "A-axis, & X-axis"?

What control are you working with?

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First I don't have the winder this was a pre winder build question. Yes the programming is simple which is why it is so hard to do. People create programs to do complicated things. This is not complicated

Right now I am just running a Mini X2 mill with a Xylotec board and Mach3. If I throw a 4th stepper on the head and use the Y axis as traverse it would work. But even if I built from scratch the programing is the issue.

I guess for the Rotation of the bobbin a straight line would work in any program. Simple liner motion without creating an object is the goal.

[Switcher]

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[Woodenspoke]

What's the actual material you'll be winding?


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Pickups, This is the Instrument and design section, Hummmm!!!!!!


For all of you who do not know how a guitar or bass or any instrument pickup is made you wrap a very thin coated wire around a plastic bobbin. That would be AWG 42 Magnet wire more or less. You are looking at over 1200 turns for each bobbin. Hopefully this explains what the purpose of the program is for. You also do not want it tidy and nice like a spool of wire but more or less a particular pattern. The pattern that the wire is wound onto the bobbin is all important and the big secret of individual pickup makers. Converting this information into an automated device should be simple, you would think.

[luthier]

I wonder if something like this would work? Just a brainstorm...

If x=0.0 is at the left side of the bobbin and for arguments sake the right side of the bobbin is x0.5
Then while the Y stepper is turning 1200 times ( 60 inches at 20 TPI)

10 G90

20 G01X.5F1Y10.0F10 ( wire goes to the right X 1/10 as fast as Y)

30 G01X0.0F1Y20.0F10( wire goes back to the left)

40 G01X0.5F1Y30.0F10( wire goes back to the right)

50 G01X0.0F1Y40.0F10( wire goes back to the left)

60 G01X0.5F1Y50.0F10( wire goes back to the right)

70 G01X0.0F1Y60.0F10( wire goes back to the left)
M30
For every .5 inch of x you would get 200 turns of Y
by the time line 70 is done you would have 1200 turns on the bobbin....I think...

[ampclutz]

Hi woodenspoke,

The actual programing of a pickup winder is really, really simple... You have to do the hard part which is decide exactly what you want it to do. And by "exactly" I do mean exactly. No wishy washy sorta-like-this is going to get you anywhere. CNC winders just don't work that way.

A cam traverse is very easy to program... (You are over in ampage coil winders and I followed you here.) Don't worry about the equipment or the programming or the computer stuff yet. That is the easy part. Concentrate on the pickup design and the winding pattern and everything will fall into place. Nobody can help you very much until you have the information ready to go.

You simply tell one axis to go a certain number of turns and the other axis (the traverse) to go a certain distance. This will establish your turns per layer ratio. Repeat this with variations (or not) until you have all the windings wherever you want. Simple, simple, simple... Now go do your homework and come back. I'm sure you will get the help you need. I can help. As before, you need to know "exactly" what you want to happen.

An example program would go something like this: I'm going to use X and Y but you can use any axis names you need. X is number of winds, Y is the traverse distance.

(Setup info for your machine) bla, bla, bla

feed rate (whatever you tell it to do)

G01 X150.0000 Y0.5000
G01 X400.0000 Y0.0000
G01 X567.0000 Y0.5000

And so forth until you get however many windings you want wherever you want them. Butt simple programing. Not so easy to know what you want to do.

AC

[Woodenspoke]

We are back to basic G code programing. I am not only asking this question for myself because if I was so smart I would have just gotten a book on G code and tried to learn something new.

I understand what you have shown me and I appreciate it but you did not take into account the diameter of the wire. So in reality you have too many winds per turn. But my post is not based on reality so it does not matter. How to get from point A to Point B with limited knowledge is the goal. I know this sounds stupid but figure you will be helping out many others who have never even used Cad Cam and controller software before. If I can get a reasonable answer novices can understand then it will be posted free on another site dedicated to making pickups.

I see some of these people cannot even see the simplicity in a design like this, two steppers one moving axis. they over design a machine which does not need precision and they have no clue as to how to make it work.

In a standard off the shelf program you can design the entire machine animate it to look like its working but in reality it does not help run the actual machine just build it and simulate its operation.

These programs are designed for other tasks, maybe a work around can be had. The other issue is random movement. You want several different movements within that .5" space. Then possibly change the randomness of each movement in the sequence.

These numbers I have provided are just a rough references since each pickup is different in the number of winds, the distance between the ends of the bobbin and the gage of the wire; all play a factor in the total winds and the pattern.

I was hoping someone has figured this out already or a small freeware program is available to do some of the coding??

If it's just learn G coding than I will settle for that as an answer, but I am still hoping for a program to help do this.

[ger21]

Someone has created a Mach3 screen for a coil winder. Not sure if it was here or the Machsupport forum.

[ampclutz]

OK woodenspoke,

For the time being forget you are doing anything with CNC.

What kind of pickup are you winding? Humbucker? Strat? Tele? P90? Bass pickup? Other? This is must have information. Do you have this info? If not can you get it?

There is information you should know if you are going to make any pickup no matter how you make it. You need to know the dimensions of the bobbin: height, width, core thickness... Basically the physical properties of the bobbin. Do you have those? If not can you get them? This is must have information. Also needed is the information on the wire... Diameter, resistance per foot, etc., etc. This is also must have information. Do you have this information? If not can you get it? The next things deal with your goals. How many winds do you WANT? Do you know? There are data bases out there with some information on "standard" pickups. You need a number for this... How many turns or winds per layer will fit on your particular bobbin with your particular wire? You need this number... You may not want to wind to this number but you probably don't want to exceed this number.

See, no G-code, nothing but basic information. No computer involved yet but if you answer these questions you have a starting point. Any program I can imagine for pickup design will probably need this information so you might just as well get it. Maybe there will be drop down menus to click but you still have to make some sort of selection.

Even if you just go out and buy a pickup you will need at least some of this information.

So, what kind of a pickup do you want to make? Be specific. Choose one and only one to start with. Do more later after you get the method figured out.

Hope this helps,

AC

[Woodenspoke]

OK woodenspoke,

For the time being forget you are doing anything with CNC.

What kind of pickup are you winding? Humbucker? Strat? Tele? P90? Bass pickup? Other? This is must have information. Do you have this info? If not can you get it?

There is information you should know if you are going to make any pickup no matter how you make it. You need to know the dimensions of the bobbin: height, width, core thickness... Basically the physical properties of the bobbin. Do you have those? If not can you get them? This is must have information. Also needed is the information on the wire... Diameter, resistance per foot, etc., etc. This is also must have information. Do you have this information? If not can you get it? The next things deal with your goals. How many winds do you WANT? Do you know? There are data bases out there with some information on "standard" pickups. You need a number for this... How many turns or winds per layer will fit on your particular bobbin with your particular wire? You need this number... You may not want to wind to this number but you probably don't want to exceed this number.

See, no G-code, nothing but basic information. No computer involved yet but if you answer these questions you have a starting point. Any program I can imagine for pickup design will probably need this information so you might just as well get it. Maybe there will be drop down menus to click but you still have to make some sort of selection.

Even if you just go out and buy a pickup you will need at least some of this information.

So, what kind of a pickup do you want to make? Be specific. Choose one and only one to start with. Do more later after you get the method figured out.

Hope this helps,

AC

ampclutz Its a simple answer all of the above. Why build a machine that is limited to one design. I was asking this information so it can be posted on the Music Electronics Forum you and I are both on??

If I was out for myself why bother posing here where everyone can read it. I would take my design, buy a G code programing book or hire someone to write the G code for the one pickup I am making and it's done with. Then I can crank out identical pickups all day long. I have no design so my question is strickly a programing one.


ger21 I cant find that plug-in anywhere for mach3 anyone have a clue where, This is the most promising direction yet. I will try Google and see where that leads.

[Woodenspoke]

I hope this what I am looking for, looks like the plugin mentioned by GER21
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ind...pic,50.40.html

Picture of the pluggin which I have not tested, it's the winding patteren which looks to be the weak link if this is a working plugin for Mach

[ampclutz]

OK woodenspoke,

One more try so you can understand... The cnc winding process is a two step process. First you have to design a pickup. No design and you are dead in the water. You can not go to step two which is program a winder. The winder will not be limited to just one pickup design. It will be able to do millions of different pickup designs. Yes, millions! But, you will only want to do ONE of those millions of designs at a time. Therefore you have to design a particular pickup. You can design millions of different pickups if you want to... You just can't wind more than one pickup pattern at a time.

Do you know how to use a spreadsheet program? If so you could enter all those numbers and it could spit out a design.

To quote you: "Its a simple answer all of the above." No answers, no pickup design. No pickup design, no winding program possible. No winding program, the cnc can't work. You might just hand wind...

Does this make it clear how important the design is?

Got answers?

AC

[Woodenspoke]

OK woodenspoke,

Do you know how to use a spreadsheet program? If so you could enter all those numbers and it could spit out a design.

AC

This is a new one on me Excel generating G Code, maybe you can enlighten me on this process?

[turmite]

These programs are designed for other tasks, maybe a work around can be had. The other issue is random movement. You want several different movements within that .5" space. Then possibly change the randomness of each movement in the sequence.

Woodenspoke I only used part of your post in this quote to highlight your problem. The only way you will ever get "randomness" is to hand code it! That means learning gcode and how to implement it. I can edit randomness in a line of code assuming the movement is interpolated rather than a single line.

Let's assume your bobbin is 3" long. That stretch of code and be a single line, or in can be made of 10,000 or more short lines depending on your controller and machine's resolution. Using a G91 incremental move that could read as
G1x3.00f10 or it could be broken into all those short lines with multiple feedrates for your randomness you need. In my humble opinion, the easiest way to do this is with a cam program using interpolated movement and edit different feedrates randomly throughout the string of movements to get the intended distance.

I have the machine that the Mach wizard was written for but Mach has changed tremendously since that was written and quite honestly, it will be much better to redo the thing as a plugin with brains included. The brains might be able to give you the rendomness you need without hand editing the code.

I will be doing cad drawings of the machine to post on line after I get back from them Mach Convention in Knoxville Tn the last week end of this month.

After that, I will need to get the new plugin made and I have someone in mind that would be interested in doing so. This is not something I can do immediately as I have more pressing things to deal with. Once done, all the info will be freely offered to the public. It will be posted on the Mach support site as in process and once finished, posted here and anywhere else someone would like to post it.

Mike

[ampclutz]

This is a new one on me Excel generating G Code, maybe you can enlighten me on this process?

Woodenspoke,

Are you any good with Excel? Can you make it output a plain text file? If so I don't see any reason you can't have Excel write G-code. After all, G-code is mostly just a bunch of numbers... It might need some minor tweaking to get it just right and change the file type.

Excel will most assuredly help you design various pickups. You can then copy and paste the results into a text file and write your own G-code that way. Really simple actually.

Why haven't you come up with any real numbers for a real pickup you want to program? The G-code really is trivial.

I'm beginning to think you have no idea what kind of a pickup you want to make. Please prove me wrong! Anything is possible. You can learn by example.

Mike is right about hand coding "randomness". You probably want to have a repeatable randomness (which isn't random at all) so your pickups can be the same for a model. You could probably force Excel to make pseudo-randomness.

Your task is to come back with a real pickup design you want to make with a CNC.

AC

[phil m]

I'm also thinking of building a CNC pickup winder. I build bass guitars as a hobby and also handwind my pickups.

What I'm most curious about is couldn't you draw a random winding movement on AutoCAD by just drawing a zigzag line? Picture that zigzag going from "up to down". The Y part would be the time it takes to travel and X part the traverse. The X part could be assigned to the traverse's X axis.

Is there any reason why this wouldn't work?

[phil m]

I just did a drawing to show what I mean.



Couldn't you do something like that in CAD make a bunch of lines, let's say a hundred or so and just repeat the whole pattern until the bobbin as reached the desired amount of turns?

[ampclutz]

phil m,

Sure, that would work. I have done that in G-code and the backplot from the cnc controller looks very strange. I never bothered with a drawing... As an example: If you use X for the number of turns (in inches) and Y for the traverse (that's how my machine is set up) and you have 10,000 turns and the bobbin (Y axis) is .25 inches tall the drawing is 10,000 inches wide and .25 inches tall. It's not very easy to view because it looks almost exactly like a straight line. But it does work! Drawing metric might be easier to view but the drawing would still be 10 meters long and about 6.35 mm tall in this example. But it works! Some bass pickups have 10,000 windings. So it's a goofy looking but functional drawing. I wouldn't want to try to print it out 1 to 1 scale!

I use a cam traverse on my winder and don't reverse it so the line is more of a diagonal slope with kinks.

Make sure the soft limits on your machine are set above these absurd dimensions... (Don't ask how I know...)

AC

[phil m]

Thanks very much for that