[twoartistic]

This post is a bit of push back against an under-current attitude of "I have more potential, because..." Only a few feel this way, but perhaps by having a discussion it will be even fewer. Or I am off base, and will modify my opinion.

I have been called to task for being neither an engineer nor an artist, while having been compensated for performing at both functions.

Here is the deal. I have an extensive education background, but because much of it was overseas while in the military, or in continuing education classes. Some of it is not recognized for credit. As a result, I do not have an engineering degree. Many times I have wanted to finish my degree, but so far, projects call me away from home for extended, and unpredictable time periods. Some years I have been away in excess of 200 days in the year.

I currently do engineering contracting/consulting. I do not finalize structural projects, civil projects, or critical safety components or other projects that require PE certification. My main value contributions are conceptual, mechanical design, product design/development, manufacturing, 3-D visualization, machine programming and material specification. I do from time to time also assist in the analytical tasks, such as calculating thermal dynamics, stress analysis etc.

I have an established track record and excellent references (some of my clients have used me for over 15 - 20 years).

As far as art is concerned, some have taken me to task for using engineering and technology to assist in developing my vision.

For a point of reference, here is a video showcase of some of my work;
Animoto - Shane McKenna Engineer - Designer - Artist - Craftsman

Here on the zone we are a diverse group. We are technicians, engineers, inventors, machinists etc. Are those titles all we are? If someone does well what an engineer or an artist does, can someone say that is not what they are? I know in some locations you can't legally use certain titles. In my state the distinction is PE. I do not work without supervision on any project that requires the PE certification.

What are your thoughts? If someone clearly demonstrates the skills, yet is without a BS degree, should they not use the title? The debate does not change my future one way or another. What I hope to achieve by the discussion is that a determined individual can in fact self determine their destiny, and become who they want to become. In addition, isn't it a little elitist to say "I went through 4 years of school for the right to use the title, so you shouldn't us it" And finally, while the traditional formal college education is arguably the most efficient, direct and perhaps wisest path to a professional title, does that really preclude those who pursue a non-traditional path?

[wileydavis]

Judging by most of the examples in your video, I'd call you an Industrial Designer. Seems the most appropriate description.

[Al_The_Man]

I have an established track record and excellent references (some of my clients have used me for over 15 - 20 years).

As far as art is concerned, some have taken me to task for using engineering and technology to assist in developing my vision.

I probably have as many grey hairs as you, if not more, and the conclusion I have come to is people will seek you out based on your body of work and your reputation.

The ones that bring your lettered academic qualifications in to question are probably very insecure.

One of my favorite people to quote is Albert Einstein and his declaration that 'Imagination is far more important than knowledge' has a great deal of truth.
IOW, if you have imagination it can help you gain knowledge, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
Al.

[Caprirs]

What are your thoughts? If someone clearly demonstrates the skills, yet is without a BS degree, should they not use the title? The debate does not change my future one way or another. What I hope to achieve by the discussion is that a determined individual can in fact self determine their destiny, and become who they want to become. In addition, isn't it a little elitist to say "I went through 4 years of school for the right to use the title, so you shouldn't us it" And finally, while the traditional formal college education is arguably the most efficient, direct and perhaps wisest path to a professional title, does that really preclude those who pursue a non-traditional path?

At the risk of insulting you, I'll offer my opinion and freely admit I am biased because I have a BSME. Feel free to poke holes in my opinion. You bring up valid points in the age-old debate of education vs. experience. From the artist view, I'm useless. Finger painting is over my head skill-wise.

The title varies by location. Here in Arizona, anyone can use the title uregardless of background. However, Using the PE requires working under a licensed PE for a period of time, then passing the EIT test, and registering with the state. Typically, the PE is only required for projects where there is public liability such as structures, roads, bridges, water utilities, etc. To work for a widget company requires nothing. The position's title can be engineer even when the person does not have the formal education.

I think the project dictates what sort of training and background is required. For instance, NASA doesn't get to orbit based on just "experience". The science required is beyond what the self-trained can do. Someone without a degree is unqualified to adequately perform the calculations required. Same goes for the folks designing chips at Intel. It's engineering that requires intensive formal training. Having hired armies of people over several decades, they have a good idea what sort of person makes a good potential employee for such positions.

On the other hand, there are scads of companies who insist on degreed engineers to handle things where none of the school work has any bearing on the job. In many instances, the formal training can place blinders on the person and make the person less qualified for the job. This is where some of the "elitist" comes into play. I worked for a company where all I did was manage documents and type up reports. My degree was meaningless but the company insisted the position be staffed by someone with a BS. It was an inappropriate fitting of required skills to the actual job. It was unfair to exclude applicants from that position because they lacked a four year degree.

[low_48]

How about contacting someone with the same last name for a job or career consultation.
mmckenna.com
Mark did a job for us at Caterpillar Industrial Design.
I say get your degree if you want to stop that challenge. I have an associate degree in tool design. Not having a bachelor degree has haunted me for 28 years here. In fact I left after 15 years here, to start my own woodworking business, and when I wanted return I had to retest and rehire as a draftsman since I did not have a BME. In this company, you are known as a technologist if you don't have a BME, and an engineer if you do. Another fact, during all my early year end reviews, promotions were hard to come by since I didn't have enough experience. After 10 years, it was that I didn't have a degree. It's one tough row to hoe if you don't hold the degree. Good luck!

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

The math required for a qualified engineer USUALLY requires college level instruction, but not ALWAYS. My father dropped out of high school his junior year, he was bored to death.

He had a "photographic memory" and near total recall. He mastered most of the math for his hobby, astronomy, from books.

One of my math instructors was a graduate student from India. He was brilliant but his dialect of English was different than my Wisconsin dialect. Thank God for books.

Most engineering education is written. Read all the right books.

Many if not most states allow the self-taught to have professional licenses if they pass a state test to satisfy the requirements. See if yours does and if so, take the test. Should answer you question.

Dick Z

[ckirchen]

I do not finalize structural projects, civil projects, or critical safety components or other projects that require PE certification.

I think you've answered your own question...if you can not certify your work or someone else's, then you are not performing engineering.

While you may find yourself doing the same tasks or even have more training than a PE, without the ability to certify, you are not a PE.

A PE is professionally and personally accountable when they certify something; that's a very important step before releasing something to the general public.

The charter of any given PE association holds the well-being and safety of the general public above all else. The only way that can be achieved is through licensure and accountability.

[Al_The_Man]

.if you can not certify your work or someone else's, then you are not performing engineering.

.

Not as defined by Wikipedia.
Engineering goes back millennia, way before any term as Professional was attached to it and created.
Your statement presupposes that anyone cannot obtain the knowledge required to do Engineering task any other way than by a recognized formal training.
Al.

[Geof]

....I have an established track record and excellent references (some of my clients have used me for over 15 - 20 years)......

You have an established track record and repeat customers for 20 years. Why are you worried what you are called? Just continue to call yourself a designer/craftsman/artist. Your portfolio of completed projects is probably worth much more than any string of letters after your name for convincing a potential client you can do their project. Of course there is the ego satisfaction of being able to call yourself by some fancy sounding (legitimate) title but is it worth spending a whole bunch of time and effort just for ego satisfaction? You would probably never recoup the income lost during the time you were studying and unable to work on projects. Also you run the risk of losing potential customers if you are not available for a period of time.

[ckirchen]

Not as defined by Wikipedia.
Engineering goes back millennia, way before any term as Professional was attached to it and created.
Your statement presupposes that anyone cannot obtain the knowledge required to do Engineering task any other way than by a recognized formal training.
Al.

I agree; that's not what I meant. Let me correct myself: If you can not certify your work or someone else's, then you are not a PE.

I know for myself, when I ask someone if they are an engineer, what I am really asking is if they are a licensed PE; as in, can you certify the work you do for me, because I require it.

There are many skilled people out there are up to the task, but when the work needs to be certified for public consumption, an unlicensed engineer is not an acceptable candidate.

I know that being a PE does not make me the smartest (far from it). There are many experts out there that are not PEs and their experience makes them better suited for the work than I am. The OP's track record and long-term customers are an excellent example of that. In these cases, if a PE is required, his role would be to review the work prior to certification.

Part of the problem is that the laws for calling someone an engineer vary from place to place. The act in my province states that no individual may use the term "engineer" unless they are a permit holder.

If the two terms, "engineer" and "professional engineer", weren't used interchangeably, then maybe there wouldn't be any confusion. Perhaps the first would be someone that is capable of performing the work; while the latter would additionally mean formal education and the ability to certify. Alas, that's not the case, so my advice to the OP is to check his local laws.

And if you already have good customers who aren't bothered by it, don't lose any sleep over it.