[northwestfab]

We've decided to retrofit 4th axis to our Fadal EMC, and are looking at our options for a rotary table.

One of the requirments is that the table have a through hole, and my understanding is the fadal made VH165 does not have this option.

So far my research has lead me to Hardinge as a Directly compatible rotary product. We need a through hole with working a min size of 1.5" for work on the lends of small diameter long shafts.

Any feedback using a Hardinge system or any other suggestions?

The Direct Drive DD100 and DD200 look like some slick units - I'm a little worried about price though ! Zero backlash, high speed indexing.

Thanks for any insight/suggesgions.

-Kyle.

[DareBee]

Kyle
You may want to check th VH165 again.
It is the same as my VH65 (DC version) and I have a 1.125/1.188 through bore (can't remember exact size offhand).
This is still too small for you requirements anyway.
I can't help on the aftermarket units.

[northwestfab]

Update...

Thanks for the reply. You are correct I was mis quoted by my sales rep that the rotary had no through hole, looks like I'm going with a larger unit that the VH165 to get the required through hole sizing.

The hardinge DD200 is a nice unit, great for high speed use, you can even turn-mill /w it. Price ... 28K !

[DareBee]

How big did you have to go?
VH175?
VH225?
How much does the price go up for the bigger units?

[northwestfab]

How big did you have to go?
VH175?
VH225?
How much does the price go up for the bigger units?

Some Spec's for you.

As you can see it is quite tall, but not long or wide, so it is not getting into the way of my X Y axis motion, very little table overhang.

The VH-225 has a 1.60" though hole and includes a manual tailstock for
$12,500 USD - a pneumatic tailstock is not available on the 175, 225 or 275. An 8"
3 jaw chuck is available for $1,200 USD.



Here are the specs:



Faceplate Diameter: 225mm (8.85")

Center Height: 6.6"

Swing Clearance: 13.2"

Spindle Nose: A-6

Overall Height, Z: 12.6"

Overall Width, Y: 16.5"

Overall Depth, X: 8.9"

Through Hole Diameter: 1.60"

Accuracy (arc/sec) +/-: 15

Repeatability (arc/sec) +/-: 10

Brake Type: pneumatic

Break Torque (ft/lbs.): 220

Load Capacity (lbs.): 160

Weight w/motor (lbs.): 160

Gear Ratio 4th Axis: 180/1

-Kyle.

[DareBee]

Sounds good.
Is your machine prewired? or does the 12.5 include card and wiring (I hope so)?

The chuck is very pricey, I put a 6" 4-jaw scroll chuck on mine for around $400 (doesn't work so good on hex stock though ;-) )

[northwestfab]

Sounds good.
Is your machine prewired? or does the 12.5 include card and wiring (I hope so)?

The chuck is very pricey, I put a 6" 4-jaw scroll chuck on mine for around $400 (doesn't work so good on hex stock though ;-) )

No, I have to spend 4K for the servo interface.
I likly will be using a lower budget 3 jaw chuck .... if you think I will get decent results out of it. I don't need +/- .001 on changeover. I have seen precision ground srcoll bison chucks for less than half that price.


Total: $ 4,000 servo interface

$12,500 VH-225 and tailstock

$ 1,200 8" 3 jaw chuck

$ 1,500 Install and Training

$19,200 USD - complete, delivered, installed and trained.


I also need to upgrade my GibbsCAM to add rotary milling I'm sure that'll add another 4K.

[carbidecraters]

Why use a Fadal 4th axis?

[DareBee]

So that is about twice the price of a VH165 then.

If your 4axis milling is positional only you can make 2.5 or 3d "cheater" programs and hand code the rotation between them.

My 4 jaw is a Bison (No problems, my whole shop is mostly Bison chucks) They make a backing plate which is specifically for mounting to a 4th.
Part # 7-872-308 is the 8" mounting plate.

[northwestfab]

Why use a Fadal 4th axis?

Do you have a suggesgion ?

[Edster]

Do you need the true 4th axis or just positional?

I have a haas indexer that works just fine. Didn't cost 20k. It runs off m-codes with the standalone control.

[northwestfab]

I need the part to rotate at a specific rate, cutting slots around a cylinder. This is acess to tighten a nut onto a stud that extends into the slot.
Currently I have a 2.5D program that produces a decent slot with the part stationary and the y and z axis moving. The big dowside is I have to re-fixture the part 6 times to complete each for the external work.

Here is a photo:



The other work we will be doing is shaft splining, which only requires the part to index.

In future we will also need to cut spiral grooves in shafts.

[Shizzlemah]

Do you need the true 4th axis or just positional?

I have a haas indexer that works just fine. Didn't cost 20k. It runs off m-codes with the standalone control.

"indexer" isn't a full 4th. If you plan on doing rotary moves while moving X/Y/Z, it is a royal pain in the ass with a divorced control.

It can be done- by calibrating delays, sending the M code to the indexer, making the XYZ move, THEN waiting for the indexer's 'complete' signal.

If you get smart about it, the CNC can control the standalone indexer control via RS232, then fire the M code to execute the command.

[DareBee]

It is worth the money to get an integrated control (even if it is on futures speculation).
All those jobs that you have described so far are very easy to do without using a 4 axis CAM program if you don't want to upgrade your software.

[Edster]

"indexer" isn't a full 4th. If you plan on doing rotary moves while moving X/Y/Z, it is a royal pain in the ass with a divorced control.

That's why I was asking if they needed a full 4th.

I bought an hrt160b with a chuck and mounting plate and a tailstock from haas for less than 8k, the amp and wiring was 2k, for a true 4th axis. Why is it so much for fadal stuff? Btw the 160 has a 1.5" hole, the 210 has a 2" hole.

Maybe you should take the 20k and your machine and trade for a Haas mill and a rotary. Or at least tell the Fadal guy that and maybe they will come down on the price.

[rickyt]

Fadal controller has 4th-Axis Flat cam programming, it uses G17, Q. It should allow you to program like it is flat geometery and wrap it around a cylinder.

[northwestfab]

Maybe you should take the 20k and your machine and trade for a Haas mill and a rotary.

I'll check on the price, but I'm never going to buy a Haas.

[DareBee]

I am not defending Fadal (I would like to see the rotaries at half that price).
Take a look at Yuasa or Tsudakoma - They are twice the price of Fadal.
Northwest - Did you look at Nikken rotaries?

[DareBee]

Fadal controller has 4th-Axis Flat cam programming, it uses G17, Q. It should allow you to program like it is flat geometery and wrap it around a cylinder.

Definately an option. If it is currently programmed in 2.5d and positioned 6 times - all that needs to be done is paste the programs together with an A-move in between (or do sub programs or program calls or?)

[Cartesian-xyz]

Northwestfab,
From what I see from your picture, SMW, Haas, Yuasa...All build stand alone units that would fill your needs and cost far less than 20k, (I recently purchased an SMW 5C-RT unit off E-Bay for $900) Using M code you can program the unit to index or FEED.
Additionally a stand alone unit can be used on a conventional machine as an Auto indexer. (All pluses in my shop) If you dont need true 4 axis control, Stand alone units work very well.

Stephen