[hanswinkelser]

Hi, there

this is not the often discussed Question for "the Best Program".
It's about workflow, experience and organization of process.

I founded a small company some months ago.

Since we have more and more demand for our products i have really to optimise our workflows. I'd like to explain some details.

We manufacture casings and "stay in place formwork" for prefabricated concrete ceilings and walls. (up to Size 600x400x200 mm)
These are used for the installation of electronic equipment (recessed fire Alarms, speakers, camera modules and so on).
The Base Material is a kind of Cement-composite which is milled with two routers of 3000x2000 mm in size.

The basic design is always the same. Four sideparts, one bottom plate one top plate. A simple box in simple 2.5D Design.
These Boxes always need some grooves and mounting holes for cables , bolts and client specific mounting Equipment and Assembling.

We do one design for a specific task, or manufacturer of electronics. Since we manufacture on demand. Clients always need some small adjustments in size, holes or something else.

Right now we have 26 base designs, and about 6-8 variations of these designs.

At the moment we draw in Autocad. Then import to "Vectric cut 2D" and Milling is done with WIN PC-NC.

For every change we have to repeat the complete chain. Even if only the box is streched by one inch, four Parts of the Box need to be "tool remapped". Except the front and rear plates. This seems to be a complete nonsense to me, but .... how else to do these changes for a simple resize ?

At the beginning we thought that designs would be "more fixed", but the world turns and we run the direction our clients want us to. So now nearly every design is permanently in revision and customisation. This is my companys "acid test".

At the moment I am checking an Autocad Lisp Routine, which can produce G-Code directly from the Cad system. Strech it -> G-Code -> Tool it. But so far it doesn't work properly. The G-Code seems to be faulty.
Maybe it is only a row of code missing ..... i am checking this.

There must also be several tools that read in a DXF File and map tools, speeds, z-depth and some other things in relation to layer colour or name. (Do you know some of these ? I know only one: BOCNC - Home) - even if it runs under DOS ! That doesn't matter.

What would be your approach ? Can you give me some inspiration and Programnames or Tool-Names for a good workflow ?

For a good solution i am willing to pay about 2000 $ for the software.
But it seems as if it is not the price of a software that decides in this case. It's more about experience and simplicity.

Thank you for your help

Carsten Veldmann,
Architect, Germany

[ger21]

I wrote this VBA macro to speed things up. Operations can be assigned to polylines and circles, and saved with the drawing.

AutoCAD 2 G-Code

It's free, but you can send me $2000 if you want.

[hanswinkelser]

Hi ger21 ..... thank you for your reply.

I' ve already found your code, and it's one of my favourites. I has a lot of options and i will need some time to fully check this one.
Maybe next weekend when the routers are free for testing.

Is there any example File with lots of options and a preconfigured setup for "AutoCAD 2 G-Code" ? (DXF / DWG and G-Code).
I like analyzing good examples ! It' s a lot better than reading theoretical papers and manuals.

____________

One more detail about my business is ..... CAD canges here are done by unexperienced young ladies (smile ). My office is only about 200m away from the University of Architecture here in Aachen (Germany).
CAD works are done by students who are not really "machinists". The only employees who really know what they are doing ... is me and my partner who runs the machines.

So the solution needs to be stable, simple and .... "always the same procedure to avoid mistakes". What we are doing right now is the complete opposite.

We have lots of broken endmills and "out of bounds Stops", resulting from "one wrong click" and ".... i am in a hurry !".

Widescale changes on designs are often tested with Styro-Foam dummies at a higher speed.

Complex programs, with lots of options need a batch mode or a password protection that disables changes in presets. In a production environment this is essential.

[ger21]

Is there any example File with lots of options and a preconfigured setup for "AutoCAD 2 G-Code" ? (DXF / DWG and G-Code).
I like analyzing good examples ! It' s a lot better than reading theoretical papers and manuals.

I'll see if I can throw something together for you.

One more detail about my business is ..... CAD canges here are done by unexperienced young ladies (smile ). My office is only about 200m away from the University of Architecture here in Aachen (Germany).
CAD works are done by students who are not really "machinists". The only employees who really know what they are doing ... is me and my partner who runs the machines.

So the solution needs to be stable, simple and .... "always the same procedure to avoid mistakes". What we are doing right now is the complete opposite.

That makes it more complicated.
In order to obtain the fast workflow you're looking for, a pre-requisite is that the person doing the drawings needs to know what they are doing, as they are basically drawing the toolpaths. This gives tremendous flexibility, but requires more skill.
Offsets need to be taken into account, or if using G41/G42, proper leadins and leadouts must be drawn.

Holes are easy, though, as only a circle is required.

[hanswinkelser]

At the Moment i am trying to run Acad2G-Code.After 5 minutes of inspection it took
about 1 minute to assign all properties to the objects. It is a quick thing for one Design.

The only thing i really miss is a tool to select multiple objects, or to transfer object properties.

(Like "Match Properties in Autocad).Even if it would only work for Line to Line / Circle to Circle / closed Poly to Closed Poly

The G-Code runs on the simulator and my software also reads it without problems.
So i'm ready for some foam cutting with the Acad2GCode and check measurements/speeds and Order.

I will try this for 10 of our designs and do some "real work" with this.


....

In the meantime i will have a "Realize" look:

REALIZE for AutoCAD

It may be very simple, but it doesn't store any information in hidden structures.
Anything is stored in simple Text and layerstructures.

To optimize speed for Rapids it is possible to cluster entities in local regions and place them on a separate layer. 001_Part_1 / 002_Part_2 / ....
Order is from top to bottom. It's the "smallest helper".

I'll give it a try.

.............

Third will be "GcodeEasycom" ....

..................

And finally just to start with the commercial ones :

Macromill

CAD MAcRO - MAcRO Mill (Total CAM Solutions for CNC Wirecut & CNC Milling Machine)


I am just waiting for the information about pricing and Trial Version ..

Carsten

So far all the above mentioned solutions are an improvement .... this might help other ones with similar tasks :-)

[hanswinkelser]

So far so good with ACAD2Gcode ...... when the first version of a design is finished correctly it is very simple to change, scale and modify the types.

The first Gcode-Design took about 2 hours until everything worked fine.

First milling needed 12:23 Minutes, groves had wrong width because polylines are not really ofsetted.
(Its only a mach2/3 command in the macro. The Manual revealed it ). And since i don't use mach3 ..... do it manually :-(


To edit rapids i had to explode plines multiple times to change the start points of the lines for each move.
(The Macro-Software can't do this, it even doesn't show the start point).
Then do the offsetting manually with Pline-> Offset "half Millradius" which makes the drawing more and more unreadable.

But finally .... milling took about 8:02 Minutes. .... And we make thousands of parts per year. This will sum up to several hours or days.

Now the "redesign" is a thing of 5 minutes. Strech it, move it, mill it. Designs are normally changed only in length or overall size.

For correct and optimized order with short rapids, it is necessary to Select objects manually in the desired order.
(This is the only thing annoying. Anything else you can get used to and find yourself a workaround after a while)
So I placed numbers 1,2,3,.....53 on a separate layer close to the startpoint of the pline.

For every try and change you have to click all these 53 lines. After I realized this i had to rework the lines again to join them to longer segments (outside the usable area of the part) . So the click-action is reduced to 22 clicks.

Concluding i can say that for our work this is the best solution so far. It is a real low-level approach, but when the design of
the 2.5D parts once is correct,.... every change is a work of one minute !

Would it be possible to have a hand on the macro and edit/add some features ? Or even translate it ?
Im also programming in VBA (Excel and PDF Tools so far).
But i have no experience with ACAD <---> VBA

Here would be my personal wishlist for repeating shop-tasks or production work.
(I think you already have a wishlist ... so just throw these ideas into the same basket. Maybe some points are also interesting for others too.)

1. A chain editor or other possibility for saving the milling order with the DWG file. (When modifying parts slightly wouldn't destroy the Sortorder-list)
2. An option to show the starting point of Plines and direction to next point. (with a Block Macro ?)
3. A "real offset" that generates offset coordinates "left from line" or "right from line" when exporting g-Code. (For "nonMach2/3" controller software)

_______________________________________________
The other programs i Mentioned do not really work that good for me.

[ger21]

To edit rapids i had to explode plines multiple times to change the start points of the lines for each move.
(The Macro-Software can't do this, it even doesn't show the start point).

The easiest way to find the start point is with the properties window. I keep my properties window on the left side of the screen, set to "auto hide". Just select a polyline, open the properties window, and click the 1 to the right of the "vertex" field, scrolling through them will show you the direction.

For open polylines, I use a lisp routine to reverse direction if needed. An easy way to change the start point is to delete the segment where you want to start, add a new segment at the correct startpoint, and use pedit to joint it in. When using PEDIT, the section first selected will contain the startpoint.

For correct and optimized order with short rapids, it is necessary to Select objects manually in the desired order.
(This is the only thing annoying. Anything else you can get used to and find yourself a workaround after a while)
So I placed numbers 1,2,3,.....53 on a separate layer close to the startpoint of the pline.

If you'll be using the same file many times, there's a better way. It'll take about 5 minutes, but will save you a lot of time down the road. Starting with the first object, and going through all of them in order, do the following:
Select the object, and do a "Copy with Basepoint". (I draw a reference line and use an endpoint as my basepoint). Then delete the object, and paste a new one in it's place.
Repeat with the next object.
When finished, they will now be drawn in the order you want to cut them. The macro uses the order they were drawn, so you'll no longer need to select them individually.

If you're cutting multiple parts with multiple operations, here's a little trick. Set up your part with it's multiple toolpaths in the correct order using the method above, and make it a block with the "block" command. Past as many copies as you want, and then explode the blocks. Each parts multiple toolpaths will be in the correct order.

Note that when copying and pasting entities, the custom properties assigned to those entities will be present in the pasted copies.


As for the suggestions. While I've had big plans for a new version of the macro, I just don't have the time to do it. It'll probably be two years before I can find the time.

1. A chain editor or other possibility for saving the milling order with the DWG file. (When modifying parts slightly wouldn't destroy the Sortorder-list)

I have some ideas here for a few different things.
1) Sometimes polylines can have duplicate vertices. Right now, the macro will right a duplicate line of code, one for each vertices. This is typically not a problem, but it results in sloppy code.
In the next version, I'll be eliminating duplicate vertices. The code required will be able to be used to change the start point. I don't know if there's an easy way to display the start point, though. Perhaps placing points on a layer that can be toggles on or off. After changes, the layer would be updated.

I can add a property for cut order, and I'd probably need to add a name field to identity the entity in question. A list would be displayed showing the entiites and cut order.

2. An option to show the starting point of Plines and direction to next point. (with a Block Macro ?)

I already touched on this, but perhaps the startpoint in one color and the second point in another color?

3. A "real offset" that generates offset coordinates "left from line" or "right from line" when exporting g-Code. (For "nonMach2/3" controller software)

This can get very complicated. Right now, there are no real complex calculations being done. The macro basically just reads the vertex information and converts it to g-code format.
If your machine support G41/G42, I can have optional formats that may work with your control. This is the easy solution, as the offset is done in your control, not the macro.
The next best choice is to have the macro offset the pline, and use the new one to create the g-code, then delete it. This can be a bit tricky, as poorly drawn lines don't always offset properly, and I'd need a method of determining which side to offset to.

The 3rd choice is to have the macro do the math and calculate the offset coordinates. This is by far the most complex method and is not likely to be an option (At least with my meager programming skills )

[hanswinkelser]

First of all : Thank you for all these hints and the program !!!

After one more day of working with it, i am sure that it will be the base of our future 2.5D Milling-concept.

For the sorting with "Copy with basepoint" i used the "copytolayer" command and back. Which is quite the same, but your method is a little more "right to the target" and with more visual control.

From, now on i will do this first. Before assigning properties.

For the starting point of Plines i use a little block. A circle with an Arrow, placed right at the starting point.
The drawings will be reused that often ..... it's better to have a swichable marker.

The third hint with "block entities" -> copy and explode is very useful.
My control software has only a limited ability to nest multiple parts on a workpiece of 3000x1500 mm.
The software does no real optimization or "real nesting". It doesn' t turn or joggle parts. (Is joggle the right word ?)

It is far more effective to place parts manually and optimise cutting of parts. Especially regarding minimization of wastematerial.
I will test this today !

Unfortunately my control software "WinPC-NC" does not support G41/G42. Maybe a reason to change to something else ?
(I'll check this ...) But WinPC-NC has other advantages :-)

_________

Quote:

...... This can get very complicated. Right now, there are no real complex calculations being done. The macro basically just reads the vertex information and converts it to g-code format.
If your machine support G41/G42, I can have optional formats that may work with your control. This is the easy solution, as the offset is done in your control, not the macro.
The next best choice is to have the macro offset the pline, and use the new one to create the g-code, then delete it. This can be a bit tricky, as poorly drawn lines don't always offset properly, and I'd need a method of determining which side to offset to.

The 3rd choice is to have the macro do the math and calculate the offset coordinates. This is by far the most complex method and is not likely to be an option.
(At least with my meager programming skills )
_____________________

I thought about all these points too. And i agree to them. My programming skills are also a little ....lets say .... "unsatisfactory".
I will try some VBA in ACAD..... but same as you ..... time and "power of mind" are limited goods. :-)

I will try this first:

Startpoint direction of plines: Separate Macro and Menu button -> Show / Hide.

Carsten