[Storen]

Just because they charge over the odds, doesn’t make them better. Their spec is very much the same

Comparing laser machines based on the power/size/speed spec would be like comparing restaurants based on the number of calories you are getting and how quickly you can swallow them

Basically, there are two approaches when buying machines:

1. You get the best you could justify financially and then adapt your production according to the capabilities of the equipment.

2. Or approach this the opposite way - define your exact requirements in terms of acceptable tolerances, cycle time etc. and go from there.

In real production factors such as reliability, potential downtime, fail rate, etc. are often considered more important than the basic spec of the equipment.

As for AEON Ledaero is right. They are not Turkish. The brand is owned by a Chinese manufacturer called Shanghai Pomelo. As far I know they hired a Turkish industrial design consultancy to help them design a line of machines with a more civilized look. Machines that their clients could install in their offices and design studios without feeling ashamed of the appearance Most of the Chines lasers are scarily ugly and rough. Pomelo is not the first to do that. Several years ago Bodor hired a Swiss design consultancy to help them with the aesthetics of their machines. It appears Pomelo are trying to use slightly higher quality components for their AEON line. The construction of the machines is also slightly better than that of the average Chinese machines. But only slightly. Overall, under the hood, they are very similar. If you want to step up in terms of quality and reliability you need to look at the higher class manufacturers, using more advanced technology (servo, RF, controllers/software, etc.) such as GCC, Trotec, Epilog, ULS, Gravograph.

[CeliaB]

Hi, I don't know if it's helpful, but if you consider Chinese laser cutting machine, you can search BODOR and visit their website. Contact to their sales or watch cutting videos on Youtube.
More choices for you man, just search more brands then make decisions.

[Dmart321]

Hi there,

Glad to see you are considering an Aeon laser. Yes, I am the touting dealer here in the States, but as much as I love this particular brand of laser, we do sell others and I've been around these machines long enough to know what makes one better than the next. I love our Aeons, but like all the others, you still need to know your way around them, that is if you're looking for something reliable. The factories in China do a great job of assembling the machine and doing it quickly, but if quality is what you seek, that requires a completely different approach.

As a dealer, we take on a huge amount of responsibility. Not only do we deal with the entire import process, but we put each and every machine through a thorough inspection before we ship them out. Till this day, not a single Chinese machine has come across me that hasn't needed some degree of alteration. Whether its squaring the rails to the gantry or adjusting the entire beam path so that it exits the nozzle at optimal power to simply grounding the machine bodies and making sure Line and Neutral lines are wired correctly, it's always something. Boss, Bodor, Aeon, you name it, they all require a degree of knowledge and some wrenching to work safely as the way they were intended. Some we can get through in a day, others have taken us an entire week to get sorted out, it's really a roll of the dice.

Many of the guys on this forum are very tech savvy and can navigate through the process fairly easily on their own. However, to the average buyer, who knows nothing about lasers and is expecting to receive a product that's plug and play, it's really best to find someone that handles all of this technical stuff for them and can back up the product with training, tech support and replacement parts when needed. I can't tell you how many emails I get just from this forum alone of people who already own lasers and want us to come out to them to make them work properly. Again, if you know what you're doing, no big deal, but if this is your first time in laser land, brace yourself.

Back to your original post regarding MIRAs and NOVAs, from what you are describing, the NOVA model is going to be the better fit. MIRAs are desktop lasers and AEON designed them more for engraving purposes and not so much for cutting. The MIRA9 you were talking about sort of bridges the gap between the two, but won't offer the amount of power you are needing. With your budget, you can get into a NOVA10 (1000 x 700) or NOVA14 (1400 x 800) laser with more than enough power. Along with the added wattage, they will also provide down draft exhaust systems which are essential for cutting applications, especially with something as flammable as plywood, due to all the glue that ignites between layers. Both models are in stock here in our Florida warehouse and will include free startup training and unlimited technical support. We get visitors in our showroom all the time, and if you're willing, I encourage you to take a quick trip down here to see them both in person. If you decide to purchase either one, we will even reimburse you for your air fare (within reason).

<img src="http://www.engraving-machines-plus.com/assets/images/showroom1.jpg" alt="Showroom1" width=426 height=240><img src="http://www.engraving-machines-plus.com/assets/images/showroom2.jpg" alt="Showroom2" width=426 height=240>
<img src="http://www.engraving-machines-plus.com/assets/images/showroom3.jpg" alt="Showroom3" width=426 height=240><img src="http://www.engraving-machines-plus.com/assets/images/showroom4.jpg" alt="Showroom4" width=426 height=240>

I have helped many people on this forum with their machine purchases; however, most people just use the forum for advice and don't circle back around to share their experience. I'm sure I can reach out to a few of them and with their consent, can provide you with some excellent referrals. We are not the cheapest company, but we are honest and really pride ourselves in the after sales support which many others ignore. I would really enjoy speaking with you more on this topic and answering any other questions you might have. Feel free to reach out to me during the week or whenever it's convenient for you. I promise you won't be disappointed.


Danny Martinez
Engraving Machines Plus, Corp.
(321) 821-7774
[email protected]
Melbourne, FL

<img src="http://www.engraving-machines-plus.com/assets/images/EMP_Logo_2_Small.png" alt="321-821-7774">

[ledaero]

Is it worth the $12,000 difference you charge over my ShenHui?

That came with hybrid Leadshine steppers and motion control drivers @36V, a Reci W6, a genuine HY PSU, quality Taiwanese sealed rails, great airflow and a European-designed cabinet, wiring and keyed lockout.

For just over $3k.

Sure, it doesn’t have tempered glass or a three-year warranty, but it was $3k.

I could have optioned servos and a higher-spec multi-mode cooler for under a grand difference in price.

For the kind of money Bodor and Aeon are charging I could have gotten servos and a high-powered RF or fibre laser.

Ive been around lasers since the early 90s and motion-control systems since the early noughts and I can’t see where all the money goes.

[Storen]

European-designed cabinet

Which model comes with this cabinet? Could you please show a picture?

I am the touting dealer here in the States

Nice looking showroom! The interior architect you hired definitely knows what he/she is doing. I wish more dealers do that instead of asking their wives and secretaries to pick the furniture and colors.

[ledaero]

Which model comes with this cabinet? Could you please show a picture?

Mines crated and in our container (we’re in the process of moving country) but this is the same model. Mine has pass-through doors, as well..

[Dmart321]

Which model comes with this cabinet? Could you please show a picture?


Nice looking showroom! The interior architect you hired definitely knows what he/she is doing. I wish more dealers do that instead of asking their wives and secretaries to pick the furniture and colors.

Thanks Storen, I actually designed it myself. We signed a long lease on the building, so figured we'd settle in for the long haul. If you're ever in Florida you should stop by. Would love to let you take one of these NOVAs for a spin to see what you think.

Danny Martinez
Engraving Machines Plus, Corp.
(321) 821-7774
[email protected]
Melbourne, FL

<img src="http://www.engraving-machines-plus.com/assets/images/EMP_Logo_2_Small.png" alt="321-821-7774">

[Dmart321]

Is it worth the $12,000 difference you charge over my ShenHui?

That came with hybrid Leadshine steppers and motion control drivers @36V, a Reci W6, a genuine HY PSU, quality Taiwanese sealed rails, great airflow and a European-designed cabinet, wiring and keyed lockout.

For just over $3k.

Sure, it doesn’t have tempered glass or a three-year warranty, but it was $3k.

I could have optioned servos and a higher-spec multi-mode cooler for under a grand difference in price.

For the kind of money Bodor and Aeon are charging I could have gotten servos and a high-powered RF or fibre laser.

Ive been around lasers since the early 90s and motion-control systems since the early noughts and I can’t see where all the money goes.

What I've learned is the it all comes down to the individual customer and what priorities they hold highest. For example, if you take your car to the dealership to get new brakes, the price is 3-4 times more than if you were to just do it yourself. So why is the service lane still full day in and day out? Well, some people don't have the skills or the tools to maintenance their vehicle themselves. Some people might have the tools, but not the confidence or maybe even just the free time to perform their own maintenance. And some people just don't even want to think or worry about, "just tell me how much I owe and when I can come pick it up." So you see, it can all be summed up as different strokes for different folks.

The laser world is no exception and so the type of customer we cater to is the type that holds the service and worry-free aspect higher than the amount of money and precious time they'd spend. Now, to offer this service on a large scale, like in the dealership example, you can't simply go Your Price - My Cost = Profit. There is a staggering list of costs associated with running an operation like this, especially in the laser industry. We're talking warehouse space, office space, sales staff, admin staff, skilled technicians, shipping brokers, logistic companies, freight forwarders, liability insurance, insurance claims, advertising, content building, showroom space, quality control, technical support, repairs and lets not forget 28.5% import duties before we even touch the thing.

You'd be surprised, there are many times where the juice is just not worth the squeeze. You can tie up your best technician for 3 days solid working on a stubborn machine only to ship it out late and then have the shipping company destroy it in transit. As a business, what choice do you have? You accept your fate and you roll with the punches. You rush out that second machine, you fight the insurance company, you ship out that replacement 150W laser tube for the 4th time, you put that technician on the next flight out and you work twice as hard to try to make up that loss before the next incident occurs. Believe it or not, just a few weeks ago we had 4 machines get damaged in transit on the same day! It is absolutely mind boggling how much loss we deal with, but at the end of the day, it's exactly the reason why our customers pay a premium versus going about it on their own.

So for the DIY person, you're absolutely right, you can source your own machine, fumble through the export/import process, troubleshoot on the forums and get a free education in lasers and motion control systems all for a fraction of the cost. But for the average startup company, for the expanding small business, for the intimidated first time buyer who is hardly proficient in computers much less technically savvy, we offer the luxury of providing a quality product, reliable after sale support and a worry free experience free from all the frustrations and horror stories we've seen on this forum.

In the end, it really comes down to the individual. If your top priority is getting as much machine for as little money, then there are plenty of people on this forum to help you do just that, but if you want a turn key solution that shows up at your door step with a magic lamp inside that you can rub whenever you have a problem, that's where we come in. So as personal rule of thumb, before I give anyone any advice, I always find out what they hold highest on their priority list. Only then will I know what type of customer they are and which direction to point them in.

Danny Martinez
Engraving Machines Plus, Corp.
(321) 821-7774
[email protected]
Melbourne, FL

<img src="http://www.engraving-machines-plus.com/assets/images/EMP_Logo_2_Small.png" alt="321-821-7774">

[ledaero]

So for the DIY person, you're absolutely right, you can source your own machine, fumble through the export/import process, troubleshoot on the forums and get a free education in lasers and motion control systems all for a fraction of the cost.

Or not ‘fumble through’, or get ‘a free education’, but be professional and studious about what you do. I can see why you’re a salesman and why I’m an engineer.

Your analogy doesn’t hold water.

I can order an Aeon or Bodor online for 5x the price of a ShenHui. Direct from Aeon or Bodor. Even worse, a Thunderlaser for 5x the price, which is actually a pretty bad machine.

I’m quite aware of the mechanisms of trade, I understand holding stock, etc., but you’re avoiding the main point - when a hobbyist wants a machine on a limited budget, and has been told ‘Aeon are the one to go for’, I question why that is. Mechanically, they aren’t superior, feature-wise it’s a wash and they look pretty. But they are $12k more for a pretty case.

I’ve no issue with making a profit for providing a service, but that’s not what the discussion was about. I also don’t have a problem with charging a premium for hand-holding - there’s a lot of inept people out there that have made me wealthy with their ineptitude. But the statement was made that it’s a ‘better’ or ‘the best’ choice, when it simply isn’t. It’s ‘a’ choice that might suit some people who value hand-holding over buying on quality terms.

As an engineer, my idea of what is ‘better’ or ‘best’ has nothing to do with price, support, stock-holding or training. Your mileage may differ.

[ledaero]

---Quote---
As an engineer, my idea of what is ‘better’ or ‘best’ has nothing to do with price, support, stock-holding or training. Your mileage may differ.
---End Quote---
This further supports what I was saying, what is best is relative to the individual and what they value most. In you case, it's all about the components and that's great... for you. However, that is not to say that overall performance, training or after sales support are not an important part of the decision making process for someone else. While I can see the point you are trying to make, in this particular case, we weren't talking about "a hobbyist who wants a machine on a limited budget."


---Quote---
I want as big a cutter as I can afford. I have a budget of around 15K USD + shipping and import duties etc.
---End Quote---
At best, you've made an argument for the quality of the your machine based on the brand names of its components. Your advice is largely based on a matter of opinion and relies heavily on the assumption that no better brands have come along that may be superior to the ones you've come to know. Even as a "salesman", I know better than to talk down a machine that I know nothing about short of reading the spec sheet. If I was to take your approach, I would make sure to at least bring some facts to support my claim. A fair comparison between all of the components you've listed would take a significant amount of time and research and go far beyond their brand names. Even then, you'd be basing your decision without having experienced the other machine in question for yourself.

Let's see if this analogy holds water. Take Car and Driver Magazine for example. When they put two comparable vehicles up against each other, they never make their recommendation based on the specs alone. They are well aware that to give a credible review, they need to get behind the wheel of both vehicles and speak from the full experience. When it's all said and done, it's mainly through their experience that they arrive at their point of view. If they were to simply judge either vehicle by solely the sum of its parts, this would give the readers a very detached review that would lead to a distorted opinion. Besides, Car and Spec Sheet just doesn't have the same ring to it.


---Quote---
be cautious of people recommending stuff they don't use themselves
---End Quote---
That's actually great advise. By the same logic, you can also say, "be cautious of people discrediting stuff they don't use themselves." At the end of the day, we can only speak truthfully from our experience. As an end user, I've operated several makes and models of CO2 lasers, both Chinese and American. As a salesman, I've worked with thousands of clients ranging from hobbyists to Fortune 500 Companies. As a dealer in Chinese lasers, I've torn into enough machines to warrant the development of an extensive quality control program that till this day, not a single Chinese manufacturer I've dealt with has been able to surpass. I've learned a lot in the last ten years of doing this as a profession, yet I hesitate to call my self an expert as I still learn something new every day.

I'll be the first to admit I cannot talk intelligently about Shenhui lasers as I've never used one. If I do a search on this forum and use what I find to form an opinion, it would come from no real experience of my own and rest entirely on the assumption that what I've read is one, true and two, all there is to know about Shenhui lasers. Since brand names and personal opinions barely scratch the surface of what makes a machine "better" or "best", how about we put these machines side by side to a real performance test. After all, if anything can attest to the quality of these components it will be seeing them in action first hand while they're performing in concert.

I recommend we select a file that shows off both cut and scan functions to see which machine can deliver the best results. We can leave the laser tubes out of this and solely focus on speed and precision. Drawing on paper would be an excellent way to see how well each machine can handle linear and circular interpolation. We can agree to use the same lens and run the test at various speeds to see if they can keep up with one another. When it's all said and done, we can upload our videos and high resolutions images for everyone to see. In fact, if any other Chinese laser users or dealers would like to participate, I say the more the merrier. I've done my research, you've done yours, I say it's time we call and see which one of us is left holding the winning hand.


Danny Martinez
Engraving Machines Plus, Corp.
(321) 821-7774
[email protected]

Danny @ Engraving Machines - there seems to. be something strange about this thread - I get the email notifications of updates, but can only see a few posts (number 9 then a jump to 29, this one) and not the one you just made...

What you suggest is a great idea and one that the industry needs - a standardised series of tests that manufacturers can use to show their machine's capabilities. I'm all for it. Why hasn't the 'industry' gotten together to arrange such a thing? I suspect because vendors like you don't want to go head-to-head with Epilog, Trotec, Universal, et.al.

Further, you seem to correlate questioning claims with 'dissing' brands.

The claim was made that Aeon was 'the brand to have' with no more evidence than a frequent poster's opinion - and I'm not even sure he owns one.

I'm acting as Caesar's wife - questioning, not taking sides. I posted my latest machine's spec and make as an example of what could be had on a budget.

I have three (well, five if you count the things I've built over the years) functioning lasers from A4 to 1325. My business has 12 A4 size and an A3 sized unit. I've been integrating and servicing commercial lasers since 1998. I am intimately familiar with the components that go into them, from the thickness of steel, hinges and fasteners, switch-gear and wires, to the electronic components. My business is two-fold - I make stuff to sell and I run a learning lab where I teach 'making' - everything from soldering to programming, from sanding to CNC routing. I see people break stuff and become confused every day.

I'm not an expert - I have no idea how to make the rubber stamps my wife wants, even though making rubber stamps was the thing that got me into lasers in the first place - but it won't take me long to figure it out. And that will be another course for the students and stock of laserable rubber sheets and handles. I'm not a 'user' of such technologies and until I need to learn it, I don't know how to do it. My personal use of lasers is long on cutting 3mm and 6mm sheet goods and short on nearly everything else. Engraving isn't my bag, but I can teach you how to do it.

A quality shootout will no doubt end up with you winning - you have servos, I don't. I have closed-loop 3-phase steppers, so that's better than most of the crap sold on Ebay and Amazon and AliExpress, but it's still not going to accelerate and turn on a dime like a servo can.

When you win, does that mean your units are worth $12k more than mine, or does the tiny percentage difference in speed and quality mean you're $10 overpriced?

Be careful what you wish for.

[daladda1]

We're LightObject, located in Sacramento, CA. It is really about your application,
what do you want to use the machine for?
Material thickness?
More engraving or cutting, or combination of both?
We can offer Falcon 900x600 with powered Z bed, red dot pointer, 100W CO2 laser tube at about half of your budget.
Please visit us at www.lightobject.com
For more information, please feel free to call us at (916) 383 8166 or [email protected]
If you like to see a cutting sample, please feel free to let us know. Thank you.

[ACCTEK-Barry]

Our company is located in Jinan, which is a very famous foreign trade company in Jinan. We have the 6090 laser machine you need. If you are interested, you can search ACCTEK to learn about our products, or contact me for more information.

[ACCTEK-Barry]

Our company is located in Jinan, which is a very famous foreign trade company in Jinan. We have the 6090 laser machine you need. If you are interested, you can search ACCTEK to learn about our products, or contact me for more information.

[michaelcn]

Do you know Boss laser? Why not buy from them directly?