[Superman]

Mike,

What X verion was the last "service pack" made available to users ???

By my count, the last SP download was X2 MR2 SP1

and there has been none since, even for the buggy X3,,,everything since has been an MU ( you HAD to be on maintanence to get the "better" version ) they have not since X2 tried to get the bugs out, always rolled to the next version

I would much prefer to run a proven, non-buggy X2 than X3, X4 or X5

And it is not my resonsibility to be on maintenance to support a product already purchased,,, it is Mastercam's responsibliity to supply correct, functioning software and rectify it when a problem becomes appearant to any party

How far would MicroSoft get if users had to pay to get rid of known bugs, or had to go to the next version just to get a feature to run correctly

[foxsquirrel]

Mike, I am running the platform recommened by eMasterCam.com, I clicked on the link for Mastercam endorsed hardware and it Leads directly to dell. For my application Dell recommends the M6500 Precision workstation, I am running last years model M6400. Both are ISV certified, so how do you explain MC's inability to highlight geometry on a consistant basis. If that issue was directly a hardware issue it would not highlight it at all. Some times I can zoom with the mouse wheel and it will finally high light it, but that gets extremely annoying. Then the MC must be shut down/ and restarted to work properly.

[foxsquirrel]

"This software is a piece of crap and it doesn't work right", without ever telling you what the actual problem is, it's gets hard to take.



Mike Mattera

The level of frustration is inpart due to the software's arcane structure. If they would spend time testing and developing an intuitive user interface you would not have those calls.

[SBC Cycle]

As stated above...

"They have issued Service Packs for non maintenance customers. "

Hey Mike. I didn't miss that the first time What MC may have done in the past isn't really a promise is it? But either way, I probably wasn't making myself clear enough after rereading my post. I don't want to beat a dead horse but you sound like a pretty honest guy and you are willing to engage so I'll try to make another attempt to explain my standpoint. Maybe I shouldn't give alternate examples like with the previous hypothetical car problem because it apparently muddies the real issue.

I know all about workarounds (I did mention I have BobCAD, right ) and I don't have big problem with them. If I can find a way that works I'd rather get the job done than blow up the developers phone getting a proper fix. My current software has a slight bug in the center drill feature when you use the manual override. If you set the depth right the first time, close the dialogue, and post it's fine. But if you reopen the dialog for a minor edit (say speed and feed), it reverts back to the automatic setting.

I can work around that easily, I just have to remember that if I reopen the dialogue I have to reset the manual depth. It's a pain in the ass and annoying but I can get proper code. This not a hardware issue, this is a software issue. Every user has the same problem. It can't be blamed on a Windows update because it popped up in the last Build update (free by the way).

Now if my software developer never fixes the issue for anyone, I'm ok with that. Not really but what I mean is I can excercise my right NOT to purchase the next version just as easily as they can choose not to fix it.

On the other hand, if they did fix the problem in my version but only gave it to the guys that pay for technical support, I have a big problem with that. It's easy to say that the developer just can't anticipate all the ways a user might use the software. While that might be true, where does the customer stand in all that? Wouldn't it also be fair to say that if it is difficult for the developer to guess, it is virtually impossible for the user to anticipate how many bugs they are going to have to deal with and not knowing when (or if) they will ever be fixed?

Even more dastardly (IMO) is that the user doesn't even know how much it's going to cost them or what they're going to get. Do they blindly buy maintenance and cross their fingers that it will be patched up before the maintenance runs out?

That's what they do. They're a pretty stand up company.

I have no reason not to believe that is true. There are very likely a 100,000 or more happy users out there. But I have a different set of standards that I would hold a company to. Bug fixes that are clearly software related should not be wrapped with Technical support, post processor editing, or translator updates. The latter items are enhancements and should be paid for. Bug fixes should not.

I have a sizable budget this year for a CAM software update and I have evaluated dozens of CAM systems in the past month. Unfortunately as a small shop I may not have that budget next year. By default, that excludes any software that participates in the "maintenance" nonsense to fix the faults in their system. It's a shame too because I may never have another chance to purchase a top notch system like MasterCAM again.

[SBC Cycle]

I put this up on the Emastercam site ( 1 year ago ) with no real answer

My post

I'd still like to know how users do stand from a legal viewpoint

Would you mind quoting the post here? I can't access that forum. I think these are relavant issues for all software users.

[TheBigJW]

Would you mind quoting the post here? I can't access that forum. I think these are relavant issues for all software users.

Superman
Member
Member # -------

posted 10-08-2009 04:54 AM
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So technically speaking, if a bug is found in the version I am currently running, should I class this as a defective product that is not up the the standard as advertised

Am I not entitled to a refund by law, or a patch for the duration I possess and use this version of software ?

It is still my choice as to when I wish to upgrade to an "improved" version, and until then, any and all patches should always be available, with no "drop dead date".

What happens if a HD failure with an older version of Mcam happens ? - no maint. but the copy is legal


quote:
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Actually there are no more "Service Packs", with the release of X3, they became "Maintenance Updates"
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If a patch ( bug fix ) for a known fault is not available, should I not be entitled to a replacement of the software with a version that is not defective, by law ?

They recall cars and ground planes that have known "bugs", do they not ??

[Jhjr]

As I've stated before I'm a happy mc user (with maintenance) but if they really don't stand behind there product and fix bugs that are in that release to someone that bought the software without maintenance. Not cool at all.

[foxsquirrel]

Yesterday I spent several hours trying to keep the tool down while using a remaching tool path. All the boxes are checked for "keep tool down" and the tool still keeps raising up. Its pretty bad, its doing a very short stroke in rapid so my machine is pounding its self to death. I am going to "section out the toolpath and experiment with it to see if it does repeat in a fresh file. I have noticed the toolpaths seem to get jacked up and the only way to change something is to start over, damn, it must be that lack of training again, i ain't smart enough to hold me tongue just right wen clikin the check box. Just another example of the unforseen cost of MC ownership, stupid stuff like that requires serveral hours of "playing and tweeking", machine is idle, my time is waisting away not to mention blood pressure that is over 200 because we spent the big bucks on something to save money and it does not perform.

[TheBigJW]

So you don't want to buy Mastercam when it comes out with a new version because you may get stuck with an unfinished product. Based on history repeating its self you should wait about one full year of a release to purchase. This way you get all the service packs. Just don't install the next version.

So I thought maintenance was an option when purchasing the software? What is done for the people who purchased the software but don't want the year of maintenance included. Is the purchase then like a used car not certified? May or may not work. Being sold as is?

One new version of Mastercam for sale. As is. No returns.

John

[Jhjr]

I agree with you on that one Big JW. It isn't right not to give someone the bug fixes for free.

Foxsquirrel your problem may be feed plane and retracts. Change both of them to 0 inc. That should keep it from retracting.

[barbter]

Or it could be toolpath used.
If you use surface finish parallel, it does sometimes jump up and down for no reason. Swap to Raster and give it a go as it definately has no retracts.
HTH

[foxsquirrel]

I agree with you on that one Big JW. It isn't right not to give someone the bug fixes for free.

Foxsquirrel your problem may be feed plane and retracts. Change both of them to 0 inc. That should keep it from retracting.

Now it will crash the top surface. I did try clearance only on finish and it jumps clearance height instead of going back to the Z0 plane"

update:

This is odd, went back to repost for a screen shot with the clearance checked and it only used clearance at the start and end of the tool path, I tried this several times when I was working on the program and it did not work correctly. It seems like the MC must be restarted more often if things don't seem to work correctly, however the jumping persists when setting the heights. Not sure what to think anymore..........

[foxsquirrel]

Its most certainly an issue with the pocket remachining toolpath. I had to do a work around using a contour 2d toolpath to clean up the remaining stock, in that toolpath the keep tool down check box does work as is it should.

[Jhjr]

Yea when I said use inc I should have told you to use the clearance plane. Check start & end only. As for the standard toolpaths I only use 2d contour. I prefer the 2d high speed paths better for pocketing & remachining. Even on a machine that's not high speed they work well.

[cadcam]

Are we doing 2d or surface remachining paths. I should be able to help. can you share your file.

PS on the hole topic thing. I have been a MC user for over 25 years now. I have been able to cut everything in front of me with it.
But I have to say I do thing that there should still be some free major bug fixs for those that opted out for Maint.

[foxsquirrel]

CadCam,
Thank you for the offer to help, I don't remember what project I was working on. I had to sleep a couple of times since the post..... Have they released X5 yet?

[cadcam]

CadCam,
Thank you for the offer to help, I don't remember what project I was working on. I had to sleep a couple of times since the post..... Have they released X5 yet?

All good anytime I think you know that. as for X5 any day now. Us beta testers found an issue so they pulled back fixed and soon..

[foxsquirrel]

All good anytime I think you know that. as for X5 any day now. Us beta testers found an issue so they pulled back fixed and soon..

Smart move on their part, they are going to have an extremely hard time competing because the other players are hitting them with price point. Competitors know MC has problems with both knees so they are going to hit higher and harder using price point. SolidCam is running their complete 3D package at $5995, I believe MC quoted around $20k for their plug in version. X5 might be their last version sold using the current distribution model, if you read alot of complaining on here and other forums their only option will be to regroup and retain market share with price point.

[TheBigJW]

Smart move on their part, they are going to have an extremely hard time competing because the other players are hitting them with price point. Competitors know MC has problems with both knees so they are going to hit higher and harder using price point. SolidCam is running their complete 3D package at $5995, I believe MC quoted around $20k for their plug in version. X5 might be their last version sold using the current distribution model, if you read alot of complaining on here and other forums their only option will be to regroup and retain market share with price point.

Price is what got me looking around. The cost for me to upgrade from X2 was more than purchasing a whole new software package in some cases. There seems to be some great new tool paths in X5 but still crap for lathe and wire. So now almost ten years of maintenance for lathe and wire and we still can't select solids for a tool path. Why would someone choose to buy this software at this point? And if you read it seems most of the latest additions to the software are third party add on. I am finding great prices on new software. If you say you are coming from Mastercam they seem to feel sorry for you and give you a good deal. If your thinking about making a switch it seems like it's a good time. You might like stable software. What are you going to do with all that spare time you used to spend rebooting?

John

[foxsquirrel]

Price is what got me looking around. The cost for me to upgrade from X2 was more than purchasing a whole new software package in some cases. There seems to be some great new tool paths in X5 but still crap for lathe and wire. So now almost ten years of maintenance for lathe and wire and we still can't select solids for a tool path. Why would someone choose to buy this software at this point? And if you read it seems most of the latest additions to the software are third party add on. I am finding great prices on new software. If you say you are coming from Mastercam they seem to feel sorry for you and give you a good deal. If your thinking about making a switch it seems like it's a good time. You might like stable software. What are you going to do with all that spare time you used to spend rebooting?

John

I was going to whine about the lathe too but only use it once in a while anymore. The only reason I bought MC was because Paul Sr. would use it in his shop, so it must be good????. Almost bought Gibbs but the Rep was a total fruit cake, he CRASHED 3 times during the Gibbs Demo. Sends me a quote for $26,000 yet he can only spend $600 on an el cheapo Best Buy laptop that cannot handle hardcore graphics and computation.....