[saabaero]

I have been reading the manual (yes, you read correctly ) and it says "If, when the tool path is being created, the tool cannot approach an area from outside, then the system searches for an appropriate point in the holes list and if an an appropriate hole is found, then it will be used for a vertical tool plunge. If a suitable hole isn't found, then one will be created automatically and added to the holes list."

" For the fast creation of an operation that will provide preliminary drilling for tool plunging, it is necessary that when the hole machining operation is being created, the user select the pocketing or waterline roughing operation as the prototype. By doing this, all of the holes of the prototype operation will be copied to the newly created operation. And vice versa, to use the holes obtained for tool plunging, the operation can be defined as a prototype for the waterline or pocketing operations."

My first question is, how do I define one operation as a prototype for another? I see where I can set "parameters by operation" but that doesn't work and I don't think it is the same thing.

The second question is... In the manual it is discussed, that the hole list is used for these plunge operations by setting the plunge method to "through drill point" in the toolpath window. I have not been able to find that option anywhere! (I am using V 2007 build 5.5) I thought it would be under "parameters/lead in/lead out" but it's not. What am I missing????

[RTP_Burnsville]

Saabaero,

I think the prototype is defined by the order in which machining events are listed in the explorer style window on the left of your screen. For example if in the machine group you define two operations, lets call the first one in the list rough waterline and the second finish waterline. In this case the finish waterline process would use the result of the rough waterline process as the prototype into its process.

machining group
+ rough waterline
+ finish waterline

Robert

[RTP_Burnsville]

Well, the system looks to have lost my response to your second question so I will try again....

My take is that one needs to use the hole machining process to plunge the holes you have listed in the drill table. As for how to get the info into the drill table, one can directly edit the table values, or one can use the graphic editing tools which will place the values in the table for you.

If you drill the holes in one process and then mill with the next process you should be able to get what is needed. This would be a good example of your first question in having the results of one process feed into the next.

I think there is a post either someplace here or on the Sprutcam form discussing this in more detail.

Robert

[saabaero]

Hey, Thanks RTP_Burnsville for the replies!

Let me respond to them individually:

In the first reply, I was thinking along the same lines as you but on further investigation I realized that didn't seem to be the case because (for one) the manual says "For fast creation of an operation that will provide preliminary drilling for tool plunging, it is necessary that when the hole machining operation is being created, the user select the pocketing or waterline roughing operation as the prototype."

This kind of indicates that the user must manually select the milling operation (created first) as the prototype for the hole drilling operation (created secondly) despite the fact that the hole drilling needs to be performed prior to the milling. I tried creating the hole drilling just after the milling operation and then moving it in the tree to just prior to the milling operation and that didn't work either.

Also, one would expect that just as the workpiece information is passed from the previous operation into "Workpiece" sub-branch of the "Auxillary" branch so would the holes from previous operations be passed into the "Holes" sub-branch of the "Auxillary" branch. However it does not - it shows as being empty.

In addition, from what I read in the manual It seems like the hole drilling and milling operations should become interactive where hole information is passed to the milling operation and the milling operation can pass hole location information (if there isn't an existing hole where needed) to the hole machining operation. For the life of me, regardless of what I try I can't seem to get that to happen. (this relates to your 2nd reply)

The other thing that is strange is that I cannot find the "plunge through drill point" option anywhere. I would expect it to be under (Operation Parameters / Lead In/Lead Out / Plunge) for the milling operation.

I have kind of gotten this process to work by manually placing a circle in the "2D" tab over an area where a pocket would be, using that to drill a hole, and then the pocketing operation recoginizes that it has clearance in the hole area to plunge and uses it automatically. The only problem is there is no interaction as described in the manual (or help screen) and the holes aren't assigned automatically.

I will try to search around to see if there are any other relevent posts.

All I can say is that learning Sprutcam can be really challanging at times!

[saabaero]

Being that the responses to my question were so overwhelming let me ask the question another way... When I did a search on "plunge through drill point" I noticed on the UK Sprutcam forum that there was a bug with this option in earlier versions that was supposed to be fixed in 5.31 - was the fix to 'remove the option (or capability) completely'???????

[RTP_Burnsville]

Hi,

Yes, a challange is a good way to put it....

I found page 1-117 in the manual to be something worth keeping in mind when trying to decode the rest of the manual. In general it's as I mentioned earlier in that the current operation builds on info from the prior steps. The wording in the manual confuses this concept at times but if you remember this basic concept is behind the overall program then you can make sense of the words (well, most of the time).

FWIW, I found that if one reads the sentences backwards that some times the intent breaks through. I asked some of the Russian speaking folks here at work why that is and was told that in the Russian language the written order of things is not always like it is here in the states. A lot of English is written so that a noun does something, where in their language that is not the case. Once I understood that it made figuring out the manual much easier (ie don't place much faaith that the order of things is correct!).

I also looked at 5.2.3 mainly the first couple paragraphs and understand what I believe you are trying to do a bit better.

Your comment below is one way to get the job done but I believe you are trying to do the automatic mode as mentioned in 5.2.3.
<<
I have kind of gotten this process to work by manually placing a circle in the "2D" tab over an area where a pocket would be, using that to drill a hole, and then the pocketing operation recoginizes that it has clearance in the hole area to plunge and uses it automatically. The only problem is there is no interaction as described in the manual (or help screen) and the holes aren't assigned automatically.
>>

You are a little ahead of me in that I have not tried the waterline roughing command yet. However, it sounds to me like it first searches for a prior plunge hole and then if it can't find one which will work it will create one. I think that is what you want to do..... One other thing I picked up is that it sounds like it wants to use drill points to either locate the plunge or will create drill points to make the holes. I only mention this as you referenced drilling via a circle in a prior post. Hole machining can use drill points or circles as you likely already know.

If I can find some free minutes I'll try to look at the waterline operation and see if I can decode anything that may help now that I understand a little better what you are attempting to do. . Thanks for posting as you certainly have helped my progress.....

Robert

[saabaero]

Even though it doesn't appear so at first, there is a lot of information on that page (1-117) and I believe you are correct that it is the key to a lot of what else happens in the software.

The scary thing is that in situations like this where there are so few pages of documentation describing the use of such a complex application that so much hinges on each and every word. That is why I end up typically rereading the manual 5 and 6 times before I begin to really start to understand what is being presented. What makes this situation worse is that you cannot take the words for face value because of the language differences. That is one reason that these forums are so important since we can discuss problems using the same words and language.

The other thing that scares me is that since I cannot find the "plunge through drill point" option in the "Lead In/Lead Out" tab that they may have done away with that feature and I am wracking my brain for nothing.

The reason that I got the cutter to plunge into a previous hole I drilled is because in waterline and pocketing operations the system trys to plunge off the workpiece if possible. If the pocket is in a confined space it will look for an area where material was removed previously iin order to do the plunge. Hence why my drilling a hole in that spot previously worked. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the feature we are discussing.

Plunging the cutter (even with a center cutting tool) is always tedious and I have found that even in hole pocketing operations it is wise to drill a hole first. It would really be nice if the software would help make that task easier. After all that is why I am using CAM software in the first place.

[RTP_Burnsville]

Ha, too funny.... I have read the manual at least 20 times cover to cover!! The scary thing is that each time I pick it up something else pops out that I never remember reading before. How can that be??

I keep a red pencil with the manual to correct things once I do finally figure them out. It's a very powerful program but as you say, the language translation leaves much to the imagination.

I have the simple 2D things down pretty well as I have made about a dozen different parts. Most have been a series of different holes and bores with the outline routed. Each time I make something I try to use a new feature so the learning progresses. It's very exciting when something works!!

I really want to try engraving and also some simple 3d types of things. I also received the TTS kit last week so now I need to figure all of that stuff out.

[saabaero]

RTP_Burnsville,

I bought the TTS with my mill last fall and just recently set up my tool table and started using the tool length offsets. I also purchased the touch probe which all my tools are referenced to. I am able to find my workpiece reference point and get my tool height reference at the same time which is nice. It's great once you become comfortable that the tool length offsets actually work correctly and you don't have to hold your breath when hitting the cycle start button.

I find it interesting that there has been 70 some odd views of this thread but you are the only one that has replied. Either my problem is too simple to bother with or you and I are the only ones who read the manual!?

I'm curious if anyone reading this is using an earlier version of 2007 has the "plunge to drill point" option visible in the "Lead In/Lead Out" tab.

[RTP_Burnsville]

Saabaero,

Good to hear that you have the TTS up and working. I think holding my breath will be less often with the TTS which is the main reason I bought it. The way I look at it, crash time would most likely only be the first time I enter the tool vs everytime I change one.

I plan to add a probe system and 4th axis as well once I get a better handle on all that I have been learning the past couple months. Not sure if Mach3 can do part setup with the probe but that is one thing that would be great to have. Also being able to use the probe to measure parts would be a neat feature as well as the tool setup advantage you mention.

Funny observation, likely we are the few lonely manual readers. That is based on my past experience in that few venture so far as to actually open a book! So many would rather just ask for a quick fix rather than understand and figure out all the millions of little details. For me that's part of the fun of this whole adventure!

Back to your issue.... I'll try to use the waterline process shortly as David sent me the IGS file of his router holder that I want to make. I think that would be a good part to give it a try on. First though I have a few small prototype parts to make for someone that has actual $'s to give me.

[saabaero]

Saabaero,

I think holding my breath will be less often with the TTS which is the main reason I bought it.

As long as you don't forget to make sure that the "T & H" parameters are set correctly by your CAM software. I was only changing the "T #" and didn't realize that the "H #" had to match. In the meantime I was going crazy trying to figure out why the minute I ran the program my "Z" value would change.

Not sure if Mach3 can do part setup with the probe but that is one thing that would be great to have.

Not sure if I understand what you mean!?

What type of router are you going to use?

[RTP_Burnsville]

saabaero,

Sorry for the confusion, let me try again.... On the part probe issue I have watched a VMC use a probe system do this: An operator would load the part on the work table to a rough alignment. Once the part was on the table the mill would load the probe tool and then proceed to probe several points of the part. After figuring out the exact location of the part it would adjust the g-code so as to machine the part correctly. There was no need to spend time getting the part exactly aligned to the machine travel. Not sure how usefully this would be for everyone, but if your part building process needed to setup the same part several times I would think this would be a very cool feature to have. I think this would also be useful if one were to do rebuild and repair tasks.

Thanks for the tip on the parameters. I will certainly try to remember that point on the T and H settings.

For a router I have mostly Bosch products, one is the 2hp combo-kit with the fixed and plunge bases, an older 2.5hp plunge only EVS1613 I believe the number is, a Porter Cable laminate 72xx something, a Proxxon IB/E, and I have been dreaming of a Bosch Colt for way to long of time...

[saabaero]

RTP_Burnsville,

I don't how sophisticated you want to get with orienting a part on the machine but the Tormach program will use the probe to align a part on the machine. I have done that several times when I didn't want to take the time to square up the part with the table. You probe 3 points - the 2nd and 3rd determine the rotation of the axes and the 1st sets the origin which would also be the point that the coordinate system will be rotated around. Its really wild watching the X & Y coordinated change as you move the X axis and what is best of all - it really works well!

I have found that Sprutcam doesn't use the same numbers for the tool numbers by picking tools from the parameter Tool List. I therefore go into the Tool Table from the machining tab by selecting properties for the machine. You can set the H & T parameters there and they will get passed onto the machine correctly.

I can't speak for the larger Porter Cable routers but I have both Porter Cable and Bosch laminate trimmers and after comparing spindles and collets the Bosch was the clear choice.

If you have interest in using a Bosh Colt I can send you the Sprutcam file (or CAD model) for the one I just made.

[RTP_Burnsville]

Hi Saabaero,

Ha, It's just me again.... Thanks much for the offer on the file, I just sent you a PM with my email info.

Wow, that is very good news on the probe system being used to locate parts on the Tormach. That is exactly what I saw being done on true VMC machines and it was very cool... Ok, I am moving the probe system higher on the must have soon tool list...

Agreed on the Porter Cable assement, I much prefer Bosch tools and most of the other German tools for that matter.

I had a nasty SprutCam crash last night and it appears to have wiped out the sprutcam file I was working on. I was assigning drill and outline routing operations to a DXF I had imported. When I clicked on the run command to generate the first step of the g-code process several fatal errors popped up and the program crashed hard. After rebooting I tried to reopen the file and all I would get is a corrupted file message. It was getting late so that was enough of that for the evening.... Will, investigate more this evening.

I'll check on using the tool table as you noted... thanks for the tips.... Can one enter all of the tool parameters there as well as the T and H values? I have an Excel spreadsheet with several of my tool parameters and entering them all in one place would be nice. Man, To many things to do, not enough time in the day!

Robert

[saabaero]

RTP_Burnsville,

I sent you a PM regarding the files you requested. Just wondering if you got them.

[RTP_Burnsville]

Saabaero,

Yes, I received the files this morning. I responded to your email but with the work email who knows if the response will show up. Thank you very much for sharing them, it's appreciated. I'll give them a try but likely won't get to it for a week or two.

Another question: Who's probe did you buy for your mill?

[saabaero]

Saabaero,
Another question: Who's probe did you buy for your mill?

I bought the one from Tormach because of the TTS being built in and also, not to mention of course, because of the price ($1400 Ouch!) Still a lot cheaper than the alternatives though.

[bevinp]

Saabaero,
The "Plunge through drill point" option is shown in "Lead In/Lead Out" tab, when 2.5D Wall Finishing operation is selected. I think it may appear in some other operations as well but I could not find any just now.

In regard to the manual, yes I find it extremely difficult to obtain meaningful information, and as well it is out of date (or was the last time I looked). All the comments you and Robert have made about deciphering the text are valid and I guess they are the reasons few people bother read the manual.

Yes the forums are full of postings that could have been answered by the posters reading their manuals first, but in the case of SprutCAM, I believe those people can be forgiven. The reason I eventuall purchased SprutCAM was the significant discount for Tormach owners, and the availability of Dave Pearson of Sprut UK, although his tutorials are not free.

In view of what you two have said about interpreting the manual, I should read it again now that I have a produced a few parts (and crashed a few cutters). I should be able to understand more of it.
Regards,
Bevin

[saabaero]

Saabaero,
The "Plunge through drill point" option is shown in "Lead In/Lead Out" tab, when 2.5D Wall Finishing operation is selected. I think it may appear in some other operations as well but I could not find any just now.
Bevin

Bevinp,

What version (or revision) are you running? I just checked the "Lead In/Lead Out" tab for 2.5D wall finishing in revision 5.5 and "plunge through drill point" doesn't show up.

I agree that the manual doesn't seem to get updated for each revision and a lot of information is obsolete which certainly makes it frustrating trying to learn from it. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any other books or information available so aside from just experimenting with the program itself there arn't many other alternatives.

Because of the fact that the manual is the only resource for learning you would think Sprutcam would place a high priority on it being as accurate as possible.

I may eventually use Dave Pearson as a resource but cannot really afford much of his time so I would at least like to learn which questions I need to ask and what I can't understand by myself first.

I tried signing up for the UK forum numerous times but never received a response. Maybe you have to live in the UK to qualify!?

The attraction for me in purchasing Sprutcam also was the significant discount offered by Tormach. I just wish that they would at least act a mirror site (in the US) for current revisions as I cannot download from Sprutcam's site without receiving CRC errors in the downloaded file.

[bevinp]

Saabaero,
I am still running SC2007 "Build 5.48". I haven't updated to 5.5 yet because Tormach's postprocessor (PCNC1100.ppl) on Tormach's website is still showing it is for SC Build 5.47. About a month ago, I tried to use that postprocessor which includes coding for the new lathe, but it would abort when I tried to produce Gcode for the mill. Tormach responded to my fault report and said they were working on their postprocessor for SC5.49. Since ten SC5.5 has been released but the Tormach postprocessor has yet to be updated.

So since my SC5.48 is working well with Tormach's lathe only postprocessor dated Jan2008, I will stay where I am until Tormach announce an updated postprocessor.

I paid for one month access to Dave's tutorials and found them to be very helpful and worth the investment. They gave me insight on how to drive SC and he provided assistance to my new-user type questions. I probably will pay for another month should I begin to use the more complicated operations and my trial and error process fails me.

Actually, the access is for four weeks, not one calendar month, a fact I think is rather petty on Dave's part and not in keeping with his willingness to give advice on the official SprutCAM Forum.

In regard to the UK forum, there is not much you can do there unless you become a paying member. The tutorial area of Dave's website is only accessible by paying members and had 20 - 30 tutorials when I had access about two months ago. Dave does give advice if you email him directly, but it is usually limited to straight forward answers.

Have you tried the official SC forum? Dave is a frequent poster there, as are a number of Tormach users who are also active on the Tormach forum.
Bevin
Canberra, Australia