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  1. #1
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    Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Just had my KMB1 delivered today and plan on doing yet another Mach3 conversion. When it finally got it home and opened the cabinets man was I shocked to see the amount of wiring inside this thing! Holy cow does it really need all this or were electrical engineers just needing work?

    Well to say the least I'm way over my head on figuring out any of the old wiring so it will all have to go. I have read through couple other KMB1 builds on here and plan to follow their foot steps.

    The usual hardware will be used:
    PMDX 126
    PMDX 107
    PMDX-179-PAN (maybe)
    Gecko 320's
    72 volt PSU
    encoders (I think) AMT102's
    VFD from Automation Direct GS2-27P5
    List not very long...sure looks easy typed out,but I'm sure this will take a looong time.


    I will need a ton of help on this one so plan on a lot of questions.
    Does anyone have the single phase conversion schematic I have read about? I would like to see it run before tear down.

    After a bunch of calls I finally found a company that would move it for me at a reasonable price. I almost rented a fork lift and done it myself but the logistics of getting all my buddies together and mill owner all on the same schedule was not in the cards so bit the bullet and had Harvey Machinery move it. 5.1 miles $750! But considering it was in the back corner of a high end race car shop I think it was money well spent. Two other quotes were $1600 and $1450!!!

    Here she is:















    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  2. #2
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    1986
    Two things.

    1. I am pretty sure the AMT encoders will not fit the 1/2" backshaft on your servos. I used US Digital E6s, and another builder used US Digital E5s.

    2. No need to buy a power supply. You have a big 230V/60V transformer in there. Unwrap a coouple turns and drop it down to about 57Volts output. Then wire it into a big bridge rectifier. I used a 100 amp one that came premounted on a heat sink. You will have right at 78VDC. Then slap a couple big ass Mallory capacitors on it to virtually elimiate voltage rippled and you will have a rock solid 78VDC power supply to push into your Gecko drives. The most expensive part is the capacitors. In my build thread I posted a link (a couple times) to a page that will do the math for you.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  3. #3
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    You found me! I was looking at those encoders today.
    I will look at the PSU and see if I can figure out what your talking about,sounds like the way to go.
    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  4. #4
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    1986
    Basically you salvage a transformer from the original machine and use it to "make" a power supply.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Basically you salvage a transformer from the original machine and use it to "make" a power supply.
    Is this the one you are talking about?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  6. #6
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    1986
    The one I used did not have multiple secondary taps. I have a transformer like that also. Its sitting on the floor getting ready to go on the shelf with the rest of the unused Hurco Parts.

    The attached picture shows the transformer, and even the data plate. In this image I have removed a few wraps to drop it from 60V to about 54 Volt output. This gives me 78VDC off the backside of my bridge rectifier. I have two large caps on that to reduce voltage ripple under load. I went with the unwrap to drop the voltage to get it below the 80volt maximum working range of the Gecko Drive servo drivers I used. Had I opted for a hgiher voltage rated servo driver like the Viper 200 I would not have needed to do that as the Viper can handle upto 170 volts at 20 amps. I do not think the Geckos were better. Just cheaper.

    The one pictured in my attachment is 230/60 before modification.

    I can tell you that my Hurco and yours are different productions. The console arm on mine for example was mandrel bent to form the 90 rather than cut and welded at angles like yours. The date penned inside the door on mine is 4-5-82.

    In retrospect I think I might have been happier to go with a 7i25 instead of a Smoothstepper, Vipers instead of Geckos, and LinuxCNC instead of Mach3 but the way I did it does work. Also, at the start of this project I didn't know a fraction of what I do now about machine building so I went with the things I was pretty sure I could make work.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  7. #7
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    1986
    I was just looking over your parts list. I can't speak to the PMDX stuff as I have not used it, but I think there might be a better choice for a VFD. The PS1-50 Spedestar is rated for a full 5HP with single phase input. (If you have 3 phase in your shop then never mind.)

    My mill already had a Mitsubishi 3.7kw VFD in the case so I used it. I just have to remember that the 3-3 must be derated by about 30% since I am using it as 1-3. For now I will plan all my most aggressive cuts at a max of 3HP. Eventually if I do a lot of heavy cutting I'll look at the PS1-50. Actually I would have used it, but when I had the money set aside for it they were out of stock.

    When you get a chance pull the head cover and the spindle motor cover. My spindle has two motors inside that case. The main 3 phase spindle motor and a smaller 3 phase fan motor. The idea is the fan runs on a continuous 60hz to keep the big motor cool when its running at any frequency. Obviously you can't run the fan motor off the same VFD as the spindle or it would not serve its purpose. There are a number of solutions. I took the most technical one probably. I installed a second VFD. LOL. I found a 1-3 phase 1/2 HP KB Electronics VFD cheap on Ebay. Then I just set it for a max of 60hz and left the pot turned up. Some day I'll remove the pot and replace it with a resister. If you have 3ph the obvious solution is to power it off your line in to the cabinet. If you don't, an easier solution might be to find a 110V or 220V single phase round muffin fan about the right size, remove the spindle fan that's there, and screw the muffin fan to the top of the motor case.

    I forget if I mentioned this before, but I picked the Gecko Drive servos based on price and rapid availability, but the Viper 200s will handle greater voltage and current and have some PC based software to help with tuning. My Geckos are working so I am not going to pitch them, but its something to think about.

    I am sure I already said that I do not think the AMT encoders will fit on the back shaft of your servo motors. If they are intact you could use your existing encoders temporarily. One or two retrofitters have used the stock encoders. Two of mine crumbled at the touch. The third I replaced so all my encoders would be the same. I did remove and save it in a bag to be used for future tinkering projects. USD E5s and USD E6s have both been used successfully on Hurco retrofits.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  8. #8
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    You got me fired up to go out and look at the mill. So I removed the covers and to see what I'm in for.
    Good news is all the servos are brand new!! At least it appears so they weren't even dusty let alone covered in oil like the inside of all the covers. The bad new it looks like the motor is a 2HP even though all the documentation I have says it's 5HP....good thing I guess I can just use a small 3HP VFD 1 to 3. I was going to ask about a 5HP 1 to 3 like the one you listed but guess I won't need it. I guess since it is only 2HP it doesn't need the extra fan like yours does as it has none. That 2 HP motor is HUGE!!
    Were you able to get the spindle brake to work?

    Looked all over for the date stamp,none to be found.


    I was reading about the Viper 200 drives and they look pretty nice,I will need to give that some serous thought at the $700 price tag. I really like the safety features built in to them...may help eliminate damage during a inevitable crash.

    I was reading another KMB1 thread here and he used the PMDX parts. I like the BOB uses 110 volt and powers all the daughter boards as required.

    You have a link for the encoders? I may be able to use the ones I have since they are new I will need to see what count they are....Z axis doesn't have one on the motor so I assume it is mounted to the ballscrew,I have't looked that close yet.

    Hope to have garage remodel finished by the weekend so I can focus on the Hurco more.















    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  9. #9
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    1986
    Up close your mill looks a lot prettier than mine. Didn't realize you had a smaller motor. No issues there then. Check Drives Warehouse for VFDs also. They have some name brands at decent prices. Not just the Chinese ones that all look the same. John at Automation Technologies (Keling Inc) can be a little slow or non communicative if you need help. He does have some good stuff, but his answers even when you get one can be a little obtuse. I wouldn't not buy from him. I have bought from him a couple times, but the guys at Drive Warehouse have answered every question I have asked by the end of the next business day, and I haven't even bought anything from them yet. I want to build a couple small machines just for high speed aluminum milling with high speed spindles and I will probably buy Hitachi drives from them when I do.

    I like the look of the PMDX stuff myself, but I have not used it.

    I think all my stock encoders were 300 line simple singled ended quadrature, and all my ball screws are 5 TPI pitch. Since my machine is different in other aspects I would not take that to the bank. Some guys have said their machines had 500 line encoders which would probably be more than adequate for anything you want to do. I went with 1000 line myself, but in retrospect I think I might have sacrificed some speed due to pulse handling by my hardware. I tested up to 250 IPM and 25 I/m/m acceleration, but backed off to 150 and 10 for rock solid stability under torture testing. I might bump rapids back up to 200 or 250 when I get a little more time on the machine, but I will keep acceleration low.

    I hooked the error output on my servo drivers to an input on my card, and programmed it as a limit. If anything wonky happens like chip welding in aluminum and overloading because its plowing instead of cutting and my drives can't keep the machine upto speed the machine just goes into E-Stop. I did some hard testing and found I lost very little position that way.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  10. #10
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    1986
    Oh, yeah. The spindle brake. For now it is just activated by my hard E-Stop button, but it works pretty good. Mine has a simple 110V 3 way solenoid operated air valve. I have it hooked up so that when you electrify it then it stops the spindle. I have a 5 volt relay from the e-stop controlling the 110V. I'll add a secondary trigger and maybe a manual switch for just the spindle later to make tool changes easier. Hit the brake to lock the spindle and I can release a tool almost one handed.

    I have two air regulators on my machine. The main one on the FRL is set at 80, and I hit the spindle brake with 80 PSI. The secondary one is set at 25, and it provides air to the valve (same as the spindle valve) that operates my lube pump. I used the 110V electromechanical timer that originally controlled it in my configuration as well. It fires about every 15 minutes anytime the machine is turned on. I thought about adding a cut off so it only fires every fifteen minutes if the spindle is running, but I can see myself doing drag engraving or knife cutting where the spindle would not be on. I figured I'ld rather over lube a little than under lube. Besides I do all my CAD and CAM on a different computer, so I wouldn't be standing there with the machine powered up unless I was actively setting up a job.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  11. #11
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    Got started today working on the pendant.Two new aluminum plates for the front one for the monitor and another for switch plate,I figured it would make service easier to make them separate,plus I got both pieces for $14.00 @speedymeatals firesale section. Ignore the off center hole for the monitor......apparently someone doesn't know how to read a tape......then I trimmed the wrong side on top of that,you can probably tell I made all the cut on table saw. Picked up a carbide blade for aluminum and it cut's like a dream,in fact I even cut all my 1.5" and 2" round stock with it.

    Made a motherboard plate that mounts directly to the PSU. Monitor use 12v power so it will be powered directly from the PC PSU. Dummy me didn't order the SSD drive so it won't be here until Tues. as you can see I mounted it to the back of the monitor. That should leave me plenty of room for wiring the switches and MPG7 - 80mm Rotary Manual Pulse Generator

    MB is an ASRock AD2500B-ITX, it does have printer port just in case I go that route,but that would need to be one long cable. I do still plan on going with the ESS.
    The on-off switches and e-stop ordered today. Next on the list is slide out keyboard tray then start stripping the rest of the wiring and get mill ready for paint.

    That is it for now!

















    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  12. #12
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    Worked on the pendant a little more also got the SSD and software installed. Couple switches in place. E-stop,Main power on and off and lower right PC on-off and reset, top LED for PC power and bottom LED for HD activity.

    Mold started for the fiberglass intake scoop for spindle cooling....more as this comes along. No real purpose just wanted to have a PC modded influence on the mill. It will house two 120mm - 240cfm fans blowing out to help keep things cool.
    All main wiring removed and starting paint prep today. Top rectangle surfaces will be custom painted and the rest will probably go Kenworth red since I have a job here to paint that color.

    First off what in the hell is this thing?? Good lord it's HEAVY!!!



    More pics












    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  13. #13
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    1986
    I like your racing scoop.

    That big ass thing that's super heavy I am pretty sure is a 460-230 3 phase transformer assembly.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  14. #14
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    Fiberglass work finished and in first round of primer. One day I will really work on getting it running!! :idea:







    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  15. #15
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    Pretty! So, have you paid any thought to making it a little easier to grease the splines on the spindle?
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  16. #16
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    I wondered where the grease came from. Now that I look at it I will need to bring out an external fitting.

    Where did you get your encoders? Time to start thinking about getting electronics on order.
    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  17. #17
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    US Digital. I used E6s, but ohers have used E5s, and atleast one person used the original encoders when they retrofit theirs.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  18. #18
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    Holy crap expensive little suckers!! $303.00 for the set. Did you go with 1000 count?

    Also do you think by swinging the head in and out and right and left it would be able to face all the the table? I was thinking about having it ground but looks like big heavy job to remove it.

    Loosened the bolts and oil seeped out all the edges but it sure won't move,do I just need to get brutal with it?
    Hurco KMB1 Build
    Wholesale Tool 3in1 conversion
    C-Constant
    N-Nonworking
    C-Contraption

  19. #19
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    wow nice job!

  20. #20
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    Yep, they are expensive. Hence why I have mentioned 2 or 3 times that some folks managed to reuse the stock encoders. Yeah, I used 1000 line, but I think that might be overkill, and depending on the control may reduce speed and acceleration potential due to nearly instant out of position errors. 1000 line encoders translate to 20000 steps per inch if you have the same 5 TPI ballscrews I do. 1/20000 = 0.00005 theoretical resolution. The machine spec according to the manual isn't anywhere close to that good, and our machines are not that new either. The machanicals have to have some wear.

    300 line encoders still give you 6000 steps per inch. That is a theoretical resolution of about .00016667". The machine isn't THAT good either. LOL. Your overall total accuracy will depend on the set following error and the rounding value you set if using CV mode. For a lot of my work I set CV mode to round about .003, and nothing under 100 degrees. I have my following error set at 256 steps, but the only time I show an out of position blink is during initial acceleration and decelleration. I did drop accel/deccel down to 10 i/s/s. If you figure the table and saddle are probably well over 1000 pounds that's not to bad. I ran higher but had occassional errors.

    That is a good arguement I think by the way for both lower line count, and the higher current and voltage Viper controllers. I think it could run better accell and decell numbers that way. Also, Viper now has a software tuning program for their controllers.

    Is it really necessary to surface the table? If its not absolutely necessary I wouldn't. If you have some impact craters and ridges I think I would hand sand and/or hand scrape those to remove any ridges, and just make sure to clamp anything to bridge any gaps or craters. A previous owner of mine cut a groove in the table at machine 0 and machine 24". Everytime I look at it it bugs me, but I would never surface the table to get rid of it.

    Also, if you surface the table you also have to cut down the lips on the front and back or vises (and other stuff) won't set level if it hangs over the table. It might be possible to surface the whole thing with a fly cutter and by moving and swinging the head, but I would be afraid it might not lockup at "exactly" the same tram and height in every position. That could leave you with more headaches than it solved.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

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