[mc-motorsports]

Nope, no zoning issues. I checked before I even pulled in my first mill and started as a hobby. Trust me, my step father is the township trustee or something like that, if I was doing something illegal, he would have my ass! Believe me! Besides that the former mayor is a used machine dealer and I buy parts from him. 1 mile north of me, no! In the village, absolutly not, you will get shut down immediatly.

I apologize that I did not realize that you could get an ISO cert working out of a gargage. I worked at a shop while they were getting ISO certified and I saw just a bit of what they had to go through, the inspector was a nervous wreck. And I have never heard of anyone working out of a garage on residential property getting an ISO cert, but I stand corrected.

As far as hiring my friends, I should clarify that they only deburr, oil and pack parts. Is there still liability, sure. And I am very aware and concious of that.

The one problem that I might have in home-owners insurance as mentioned. As far as workers comp, I had it for a while, had to have it for doing "on site repairs" for a shop that I sub-contracted for, it was part of the contract. As far as myself being the only employee, I don't need insurance on myself, my disablility insurance would cover me better than workers' comp. Blah blah blah.

[PBMW]

If you write a check from your business to anyone doing work for you. You are liable for the L&I payments

[Mermaid]

Most seem to consider price only, and, never mind thinking about where they might be in three years, they don't even think seriously about the next six months.

Experience is an important component but I also think that personality (?) comes into it. I put the (?) because I am not sure that is the correct word. I think you have to be able to separate what 'you' (think) want from what the 'business' needs.

Hi everyone,
I'm brand new to these forums and so I hope you will forgive me for my lack of knowledge and have some patience with any of my stupidity. I have spent the last several days reading your posts and threads trying to bone up and gleam some insight into things I should know about. I'm finding your posts very helpful and so I thank you for taking your time to post in these threads and in doing so sharing your vast amount of knowledge w me.
So here goes...this will be my first post ...pls be gentle. I am sincerely try to learn from your experiences.

I was attracted to this thread because we are thinking about buying our first CNC for our manual machine shop and as Geof stated, knowing the difference between what one wants and what the shop needs was very thought provoking to me.

Just to give you a little background, my husband is a mechanical engineer and worked for the same company for over 25 years, in latter years as the V.P. of R & D. The company sold out the manufacturing to an overseas concern in 2004. After market was all they held on to.
So we got brave and we moved from California to Florida just in time to arrive the day before the chain of hurricanes arrived. After looking for a year wed bought an existing manual machine shop that had been in business since 1978. The owner who was in his late 70's was somewhat burned out and wanting to retire. (Luckily for us the owner after some long, long awaited time off for him, he came back and is still working w us. He is almost 80, is very knowledgable and is the best employee we've got.)
With his help we have done well in the transition, by being able to keep all of the existing customer base and additionally by being able to bring in customers from my husbands former job. We were actually were able to double sales within our second year.
I don't mean to make this sound like a big enterprise because it isn't. We are in a 1500 sq ft shop, with 5 manual mills, 2 lathes, band saw, shear, break press, grinders, notchers, mig and tig welding machines etc...and good customer base.
We do about 25% of our business for an eye glass manufacturer, 25% for defense products, 25% for industrial filtration applications and about 25% of a multiple assortment of customers from printing presses, to marine retrofitters, fish and wildlife, motor cycle enthusiats, old men with a little to much time on their hands with projects.

Business has been good, as I mentioned we double the sales, but also unpredictable. Either we have more than we can handle or nothing to do. This is why having a product of our own, really interests me, in addition to what we already have going on. It could really help with the lulls.
We have also had a problem with one of our 3 employees. Absences when crucially needed, fuzzy headed hangovers and even caught drinking on the job. Bad growly attitude at time, won't follow instructions and most important low productively. Oftern cost us money on a job, not even breaking even.
We went thru a lull at the beginning of the year and had to lay him off. My husband is now reluctant to bring him back for the above mentioned reasons.
My husband thinks we could like to purchase a CNC mill instead that would not be so tempormental and would be more accurate. Also we could depreciate it.
I have read several posts including on which Geof wrote about all the machinery he had bought in order to get to where it was he wanted to be. I know he jumped thru some hoops and I appreciate that he wrote about this. Like another shop said, "we have one chance to get this right" and I'd like to get it right the first time too.
I also liked this post because, I had to stop and question whether what we are thinking about buying is because it's something we want, opposed to what's really best for the business. While price is certainly a major consideration, I also realize that it might behove us to spend a little more rather than limit our capabliities in the near future.

I know you will all laugh, but let me tell you how our thinking has progressed. My husband brought up the subject of an CNC about 3 weeks ago when the business started flowing back in, rather than bring this individual back. At first he was talking (probably to convince me the bean counter) about a Tormache w the base price of $6,800. We looked into that. The following week our neighbor who deals in plastics said don't buy a Tormache, that he was considering by a new TM-1 and he would consider selling us his 2002 TM-1 w low hours for around $14,000. So in our minds, we would now be doubling our expenditure, but perhaps it was much more worth while. He was in a big hurry for us to decide with a day, because he wanted to take advantage of the Haas discount sale of 7.5%.
I don't move that fast, regardless of how good of a deal without doing my homework first. I went home that night and on this site, read a probably little noticed post with a link to depreciation and found out that a tax stimulus had been announced at the end of February that would allow one to write off 70-100% this year in depreciation in order to stimulate business purchases. The only caveat is the equipment must be new. I suddenly realized that I could write off a new TM-1 entirely the first year and save much more than if I bought an used one. So hence another doubling of the price.

Next in this evolution I read here, about the dishwasher effect with the coolant getting all over the place, and also Geof saying about the chips hitting the sides like rapid gunfire. I Our neighbor just does plastic so not so much of an issue. I also thought a tool changer would be a good idea and so the logical progression in my mind was to go from a TM-1 to a TP-1. So now up into the 30 thousand dollar range.
When reading about all of Geofs purchases to get to where he wanted to go, and finding the Mini, than SuperMini, I became interested in that, but the learn that the travel is are much smaller and we would be limiting the size of parts we could do.
Now I learn, here again, that they are offering a new SuperMiniMill 2 with more Z,X and Y but not as much x as the TP-1, 20" verus 30". Here I go up again!
I emailed this to my hubby, who in turn spoke w our Haas rep here today, and he says it's not for us, because we do a lot to S/S and it's really made more for plastics. Is this true? Are we better off w the TP-1 for our application?
I have never owned or bought a CNC, am not a machinist, but am really trying to make the very best decision for our business. I'd appreciate your thoughts and help.
Thank you and sorry for the long story.
Jennifer

[Geof]

......Now I learn, here again, that they are offering a new SuperMiniMill 2 with more Z,X and Y but not as much x as the TP-1, 20" verus 30". Here I go up again!
I emailed this to my hubby, who in turn spoke w our Haas rep here today, and he says it's not for us, because we do a lot to S/S and it's really made more for plastics. Is this true? Are we better off w the TP-1 for our application?...

This is a bit puzzling. The new MiniMill, note it appears to be the standard 6000 rpm spindle not the 10,000 rpm Super, has the same spindle as the original MiniMill which is more or less the same as the TP. I think the main difference is the TP is grease lubricated not oil mist. I do not see how there can be much difference between the two in terms of ability to machine SS. Also I think the statement that it, the longer travel MiniMill is made for plastics is a bit silly; of course it is not. The Minis are lacking in power and rigidity for machining steel, stainless or otherwise, but they can do it if you recognize their limitations. But I don't think the TP can be any more rigid, actually I would expect it to be less if anything.

It is a difficult thing sometimes to discipline yourself to make a decision. For what its worth I would not buy a TP over the new Mini unless I absolutely had to have the longer travel. And, if it is available with a 10,000rpm spindle, I will probably buy the new Mini with the side mount changer as my next mill.

[mc-motorsports]

I think the main difference is the TP is grease lubricated not oil mist. I do not see how there can be much difference between the two in terms of ability to machine SS.

Just a quick note to possibly help you make a better decision... I worked for a spindle manufacture for 9 years, I as in charge of assembly and training. We built and rebuilt everything from 3000 RPM belt driven lathe spindles for piston manufactures up to 40,000 RPM mold machine spindles. Very high end machinery for the most part, but as mentioned, a couple of lower cost machines such as the piston manufactures and a company who sells machines for machining granite and marble. Most of our business was high speed mold machines. The company I worked for originally developed some 10K oil-air spindles and they were eventually retrofited or changed over to greased bearing. General rule, greased bearing spindles are generally under 12K RPM and can take a higher chip load, lower RPM spindles will have steel bearing, higher having ceramic, diffrent contact angles ect. Higher RPM spindles need oil-air because greased bearings just won't live with the surface footage of the actual ball bearing rotation which is commonly around 100K for higher speed spindles.

I can't remember the name of the actual machine manufacture, but I will post if I do remember... They build gantry mills used for manufacturing automotive molds and mostly used by defense manufactures, they actually have 3 spindles for that machine. Same thing as your CAT40 tooling, there were pull knobs on the back of the spindles, the machine would change spindles as well as change tools! They use a 6K greased bearing for heavy roughing, a 10K greased bearing for light roughing and moderate finishing, and a 20K oil-air for finishing. Granted the machine costs millions, there is something to be said about spindle selection.

What I'm getting at is if you plan on doing heavy cuts at 1000 RPM on SS, I would take the 6K greased bearing spindle any day. I almost garantee the 10k oil-air spindle has ceramic bearings which won't like that kind of cutting force. You would need to take lighter cuts with a ceramic bearing spindle, and I've seen first hand what happens when you confuse the two.

Working for the spindle manufacture let me see the total opposite end of the manufacturing spectrum. And I honestly can't figure out why people build 10K RPM oil-air spindles, like I said, the company I worked for did it and we ended up changing them back to greased bearings. The engineers decided that you only need oil-air over a certain surface footage of the ball bearing rotation and yes, shaft diameter made a difference, but 15K was generally the deciding point. But I'm also talking about $30-60K just for the spindle, brand new.

Sorry for the long explanation, point is I would expect the 6k spindle to handle a higher chip load and do MUCH better in a heavy cut. I would expect the 10K spindle to be made for ligher cuts and finish work, i.e. mold work.

[Mermaid]

Thank you Geof for your reply. I apologize for some of my typos in my last post, but the hubbie and our two dogs were pestering me to get cooking the porterhouses sitting on the island as I was trying to type. You can imagine how distracting that was. Me, me, me! Now, now now! Hungry, hungry.
Anyway, the new Super Mini Mill 2 that they are just releasing, is 10,000 rpm and has more travel than it's the original Super Mini, which was an concern for us as far as larger parts. We are not being told that it not good for SS because of the travel but rather because of the torgue. I can't see any comparison as far as torque in the specs.
The T1-P only has 6,000 rpm.
I just feel , knowing all your personal experience with various haas machines, that you would be the best one in this position to advise me.
I am so happy you responded!
Thank you so much and will await hopefully for your next reply
Jennifer

[Geof]

.... We are not being told that it not good for SS because of the travel but rather because of the torgue. I can't see any comparison as far as torque in the specs.....

Dig out the torque specs. I think at the same rpm the Super has more torque than the Mini.

This is a problem with non-gearbox machines: You need low speed and high torque which is contradictory without a gear box. Also with stainless you need the ability to take a good cut, both depth of cut and feed due to work hardening.

It is conceivable you could be better off getting a gearbox machine even if it was secondhand. I know then you do not get the accelerated tax write off but you do get a write off just over a longer time period.

[Mermaid]

[QUOTE]General rule, greased bearing spindles are generally under 12K RPM and can take a higher chip load, lower RPM spindles will have steel bearing, higher having ceramic, diffrent contact angles ect. Higher RPM spindles need oil-air because greased bearings just won't live with the surface footage of the actual ball bearing rotation which is commonly around 100K for higher speed spindles.

Thank you too MotorSports for the explanation,
I actually think I understand what it you and Geof are getting at, that being, that the Super Mini Mills most likely have the ceramic bearings and greased spindles, and this is why a Super Mini might not be a good choice for SS?
Am I right?
Jen

[Geof]

[quote=Mermaid;427223]

....I actually think I understand what it you and Geof are getting at, that being, that the Super Mini Mills most likely have the ceramic bearings and greased spindles, and this is why a Super Mini might not be a good choice for SS?
Am I right?
Jen

On the topic of ceramic bearings I think you need to find out from Haas. The Mini and Super Mini are low cost machines and ceramic bearings sound expensive to me. All I know for sure is that the spindles on these machines are air/oil lubricated and the TM(P) are grease.

[gizmo_454]

I may or not be correct, but my understanding is this:

Generally speaking, most spindles use steel bearings up to about 10K to 12K rpm. Ceramic start up around the 15K mark.

As for the Mini Mill, I am definitely with Geof in that it will handle Stainless, but it will not do it as well as a geared machine. We cut everything from brass and aluminum to stainless and Nitronic with our Mini Mill without too many issues. But like Geof stated before, you have to know the limits of the machine you are dealing with. Just my $0.02.

Good luck with your decision! I am still waiting to see the specs on the new Super MM 2.

Gizmo

[Mermaid]

Hi Gizmo,

And thank you for responding too. A bunch of gents frequent here, that's for sure.

Geof and Motorsports I will check with Haas about the ceramic opposed to the steel, and also about the oil water vapor opposed to the grease. I don't however know anything about what gear box driven is. Is this the same as linear or box ways?
(Which I have learned reading from Geof, I should never shoot chips into,with compressed air below the table line, LOL) See blondes can learn!

((In my past life of many years I was a Real Estate agent,(yeah one of those), working for Coldwell Banker Solano Pacific, and have just recently re-invented myself into a running shoe, blue jean wearer, a grungy blond shop witch, going after women owned biz gov contracts, while my old tailored suits and high heels lay molding in my closet in the Florida humidity. I'm enjoying the change in personna if not the dirt under my now shortened nails !))

Gizmo I have copied and pasted the new Mini and Super Mini Mill 2 specs here for you below. It doesn't copy well or with the photos.

You might find it best to go the Haas website, however it's not to be found under the reg machine listings, you have to go up to the top bar and look under what's new. It's under that tab, first listing. hope this helps, and thanks so much for yours,
All my best and many thanks to you all,
A nice welcome!
Florida Mermaid. (specs below)

Haas MM2 Series
Haas Automation, Inc. | www.HaasCNC.com | 800-331-6746 | Made in U.S.A.
The Mini Mill 2 & Super Mini Mill 2
[ S p e c i a l S e r i e s ]
Mini Mill 2
$35,995*
Base Models
Start at
Super Mini Mill 2
$44,995*
Prices and specifications subject to change without notice. Not responsible for typographical errors. Machines shown with optional equipment. *Base price in US dollars.
Warranty: 6 Months Parts and Labor on both machines
Automatic 10-pocket
40-taper tool changer
Shop-proven, 6,000-rpm
vector drive spindle
Standard, user-friendly,
full-function Haas control
600-ipm rapids,
500-ipm cutting feeds
Single-or three-phase power
Compact footprint
ENHANCED Automatic 10-pocket
40-taper tool changer provides
fast 3-second tool changes
ENHANCED Shop-proven, vector
drive spindle features 10,000 rpm
and rigid tapping
40" x 14" table handles
parts up to 500 lb
ENHANCED High-pitch ballscrews
and powerful brushless servos
provide 1,200-ipm rapids
The Super Mini Mill 2 also
includes a coolant system
Three-phase power
Compact footprint
B
Front
C
Top
A
Operating Dimensions
A. Max Operating Height 100" 2 540 mm
B. Max Operating Width 85" 2 159 mm
C. Max Operating Depth 93" 2 362 mm
Haas Mini Mills are the industry
standard for compact machining
centers, and now they’re available
with longer travels. The Mini Mill 2
and Super Mini Mill 2 offer the
same combination of small
footprint, full CNC capabilities and
affordable price, but with extended
travels of 20" x 16" x 14" – a 4"
increase on each axis. Need more
tools? The MM2 has options for a
20-pocket carousel tool changer
or a 24+1 tool side-mount.
Mini Mill 2
Super Mini Mill 2
[ Specifications ]
Travels Mini Mill 2 Super Mini Mill 2
X 20" 20"
508 mm 508 mm
Y 16" 16"
406 mm 406 mm
Z 14" 14"
356 mm 356 mm
Spindle Nose to Table Top (approx.) 4"-18" 4"-18"
102 - 457 mm 102 - 457 mm
Table
Length (total) 40" 40"
1 016 mm 1 016 mm
Width 14" 14"
356 mm 356 mm
Max Weight on Table 500 lb 500 lb
227 kg 227 kg
T-Slots
T-Slot Width 5/8" 16 mm
Number of T-Slots 3
Center Distance 4.9" 125 mm
Spindle
Taper Size #40 #40
Speed 0-6,000 rpm 0-10,000 rpm
Drive System Belt-Driven Belt-Driven
Max Torque 33 ft-lb @ 1,200 rpm 17 ft-lb @ 4,600 rpm
45 Nm @ 1200 rpm 23 Nm @ 4 600 rpm
Max Rating 7.5 hp 15 hp
5.6 kW 11.2 kW
Brushless Axis Motors
Max Thrust Rating 2,000 lb 8 896 N
Feedrates
Max Rapids 600 ipm 1,200 ipm
15.2 m/min 30.5 m/min
Max Cutting 500 ipm 833 ipm
12.7 m/min 21.2 m/min
Tool Changer (standard)
Capacity 10
Type CT or BT 40
Max Tool Diameter 3.5" 89 mm
Max Tool Weight 12 lb 5.4 kg
Tool to Tool 3.6 sec 3.0 sec
Chip to Chip 5.0 sec 3.8 sec
Tool Changer (optional)
Capacity 20 / 24+1 24+1
Type CT or BT 40
Tool to Tool 3.6 sec /2.8 sec 1.6 sec
Chip to Chip 5.0 sec / 3.6 sec 2.2 sec
Accuracy
Positioning ±0.000 2" ±0.005 mm
Repeatability ±0.000 1" ±0.003 mm
General
Machine Weight† 4,000 lb 4,000 lb
1 814 kg 1 814 kg
Air Required 4 scfm @ 100 psi 4 scfm @ 100 psi
113 Lpm @ 6.9 bar 113 Lpm @ 6.9 bar
Power Required (min) 208 VAC 3-Phase, 30 A 208 VAC 3-Phase, 50 A
240 VAC 1-Phase, 50 A
Haas MM2 Series
The Mini Mill 2 & Super Mini Mill 2
[ T e c h n i c a l S p e c i f i c a t i o n s ]
Prices and specifications subject to change without notice.
Not responsible for typographical errors.
C E R T I F I E D Machines shown with optional equipment. *Base price in US dollars. Mar 2008
Mini Mill 2
[ Standard Features ]
• Full VMC Capabilities
• 20" x 16" x 14" (xyz) Travels
• Full Enclosure
• 10-Pocket Tool Changer
• Standard 40-Taper Tooling
• 40" x 14" Table
• 6,000-rpm Vector Drive Spindle
• 600-ipm Rapids
• 15" Color LCD Monitor w/USB Port
• Direct Speed, Belt Drive
• Accepts Single- or Three-Phase Power**
• User-Friendly Haas Control
• Easy to Set Up and Operate
• Made in the USA
[ Options ]
• BT40
• Chip Auger
• Coolant Pump Kit
• Programmable Coolant Nozzle
• 20-Pocket Tool Changer
• 24+1 Tool Side-Mount Tool Changer
• 4th- and 5th-Axis Drives
• Coordinate Rotation & Scaling
• High-Speed Machining w/Look-Ahead
• User-Definable Macros
• Visual Quick Code Programming
• Haas Intuitive Programming System
• Rigid Tapping
• Spindle Orientation
• 16 MB Program Memory
**Three-phase only w/SMTC option
Super Mini Mill 2
[ Standard Features ]
• Full VMC Capabilities
• 20" x 16" x 14" (xyz) Travels
• Full Enclosure
• High-Speed 10-Pocket Tool Changer
• Standard 40-Taper Tooling
• 40" x 14" Table
• 10,000-rpm Vector Drive Spindle
• 1,200-ipm Rapids
• Rigid Tapping
• 15" Color LCD Monitor w/USB Port
• Coolant Pump Kit
• Direct Speed, Belt Drive
• Three-Phase Power
• User-Friendly Haas Control
• Easy to Set Up and Operate
• Made in the USA
[ Options ]
• BT40
• 15,000-rpm Spindle
• Chip Auger
• Through-Spindle Coolant
• Programmable Coolant Nozzle
• High-Speed 24+1 Tool SMTC
• 4th- and 5th-Axis Drives
• Coordinate Rotation & Scaling
• High-Speed Machining w/Look-Ahead
• User-Definable Macros
• Visual Quick Code Programming
• Haas Intuitive Programming System
• Spindle Orientation
• 16 MB Program Memory
The longer travels and larger table of the Mini
Mill 2 and Super Mini Mill 2 provide more room
for larger parts and multiple fixtures.
The optional side-mount tool changer holds
24 tools plus one in the spindle. Side-mount
tool changers provide more tools, more
workspace and faster tool changes to increase
your productivity and reduce setup times.
†Estimated weight, may vary with optional equipment.

[Mermaid]

One more thing pls, both Gizmo and Geof,
Does the size of the SS part you are cutting on a Super Mini have any bearing? Is it easier on the machine on small part but more difficult and wearing on it to do larger and more time consuming part?
Mermaid

[katiebo]

... I am still waiting to see the specs on the new Super MM 2.

Spec sheet can be found here: http://www.haascnc.com/display.asp?ID=113#news

Like others have said you need to know the machines limitations and work within them.

I too am very interested in the new Mini series. When I first spoke to my Haas dealer I was looking at the older mini. However through my reading here I learned about the Mini Mill 2. The sales rep has not been very helpful about providing any info though. He even went so far as to tell me to buy the old mini. I don't know what your dealer is telling you but remember to take everything with a grain of salt until he or she has earned you complete confidence. Most sales people live by the first rule of sales, SWISS (Sell What In Stock Stupid). Sad but true.

One thing I must say in defense of the sales rep though. Consumers are in a much better position to research products they are interested in. I would not be surprised if he has not even seen the data sheet that is posted on the Haas website.

[Mermaid]

Thanks Katieboo,
I'm kind of the same mind too. Measure twice, cut once.
Ask more than one person. Ask twice. At least, after all it's our expenditure.
You know our rep might be right, but what the hay,
there are a lot of good people here, we can double check with and get some great imput in order to ask the pertinent questions. Now thus armed with some good feedback, I can question our rep further, and beyond what I knew. This is truly the value of these shared informational forums.
thanks to you all
Mermaid

[Mermaid]

P.S
I noticed your posts too katieboo. Have you decided what to buy?
Let me know, I'd be interested in your research and findings too.
I suspect you are probably a lot like me
best to you!
Mermaid

[slatern44]

From my understanding the sheet metal on the new Mini Mill 2 is actually going to be 1-2" bigger in both X and Y direction than a VF-2 but yet it has a smaller foot print. So I would go with the VF-2.

[mc-motorsports]

I may or not be correct, but my understanding is this:

Generally speaking, most spindles use steel bearings up to about 10K to 12K rpm. Ceramic start up around the 15K mark.

Exactly, so then why are they using oil/air lubrication? It's not even nessessary at that RPM and I've never seen it on anything except for ceramic bearing spindles, and Torrington had a lot to do with ceramic bearings being so expensive, they solicited Washigton to put a 40% tarriff on imported bearings from England, Germany and Italy, the only part I don't like is China didn't make the list, G.H.W.B. did it again.

I'm just curious as to why they are using oil/air, especially when it's more expensive to manufacture the spindle, you have to add a lubrication unit, plus matenince... I don't doubt that mill can cut SS, but if you read the brochures and specs, it's made for aluminum and finish work. How long would that spindle last doing heavy machining?

[DareBee]

One more thing pls, both Gizmo and Geof,
Does the size of the SS part you are cutting on a Super Mini have any bearing? Is it easier on the machine on small part but more difficult and wearing on it to do larger and more time consuming part?
Mermaid

No, the part size is not relevant (unless it is over the capacity of the machine.
The issues are the details to be cut because they dictate the size of the cutter required.
For instance, if you needed to face mill 1" off a 3.5" wide bar, ideally a 4"dia facemill would do it in 3-5 passes. I don't have a minimill but I am fairly certain it won't run a 4" facemill and if it does you may have to take 10 passes to do the same thing. 3 passes = 3 minutes, 10 passes = 10 minutes.
If all your work is fine detail machining that you are doing with a 1/4" endmill then it is plenty strong enough.
You have to decide by the TYPE of work you do, not the size of it.

[duenow]

The regular mini mill 6,000 rpm will cut SS just fine I have a 2004 mini I bought new.
You just take lighter cuts than if it was a Mori. One thing I bought & you
should is the high volume coolant pump with it I run one 1/2" locline with
a big Vee end & it will cover all tools without ever having to adjust it.

With you doing the SS parts now on manual mills you will increase your output
a bunch.

[Geof]

..... I don't have a minimill but I am fairly certain it won't run a 4" facemill and if it does you may have to take 10 passes to do the same thing. 3 passes = 3 minutes, 10 passes = 10 minutes.....

No, it will not run a 4"; a direct drive VF2 will not run a 4" effectively.

The Super MiniMill will run a 1-1/2" four insert facemill okay, but taking the 3.5" bar wide down 1" is going to be quite a bit longer than 10 minutes.