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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Novakon > Just ordered the last melon (Torus)
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  1. #1
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    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Thanks to all of the people who answered my questions on the Novakon mills over the last two months, I just placed an order for Novakon's last Torus milling machine. Although there wasn't a crowd fighting over the last Torus, it still reminded of this video clip from Ice Age.

    The Last Melon - Ice Age

    I have asked Novakon to delay shipment of the Torus so that it won't arrive until the end of January. This should give me time to recover from Christmas and New Years, and then get the garage cleaned up and the new 220 volt circuit installed.

    Novakon is including the computer, a quick-change tool kit, and a 6' extension cable for the control cabinet. The extension cable will give me the option of relocating the control cabinet in order to reduce the mill depth.

    I'm looking forward to seeing the enclosure that SCzEngrgGroup has hinted at.

    Titaniumboy

  2. #2
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    Good job.
    I think you will really like it. Mine is away from the wall enough so that the door on the cabinet will open. This leaves plenty of room behind the machine to get at stuff. I also hide my small compressor in the corner behind the Torus, so double duty for that space. I did add an extra larger drain in mine. The original drain is maybe a 3/4" hole at the right rear corner of the pan. I installed a bath sink drain in the front right corner and use some reinforced clear tube to route it into the coolant tank.

    One of the first things you might want to tackle is to make a new drawbar. The square head design my Torus came with is not suitable for fast tool changes.

    Looking forward to seeing pics and reading about it. It is a pity that this is the last one.
    It is a nice machine at a low price point. I would probably have paid the extra for the Pulsar without balking though. Lots of nicer features than the Torus.
    Lee

  3. #3
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    Going up to Toronto today to pick up my mill in the morning. I will say hi to yours for you!

    Power Draw Bar. Get one. No excuses. Not sure what quick change novakon sells but if it isn't compatible with Tormach I would pass and get the PDB. Also I would check the new stand out. Not sure how much more it is, but it is much better than the old one. I want to say it is $750 but better coolant, drains, chip evacuation, etc. I am going to post some pics in my take-off thread when I get home tomorrow night.

    -Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay View Post
    Good job.
    I think you will really like it. Mine is away from the wall enough so that the door on the cabinet will open. This leaves plenty of room behind the machine to get at stuff. I also hide my small compressor in the corner behind the Torus, so double duty for that space. I did add an extra larger drain in mine. The original drain is maybe a 3/4" hole at the right rear corner of the pan. I installed a bath sink drain in the front right corner and use some reinforced clear tube to route it into the coolant tank.
    I'm really excited about getting this mill. I've been following your Torus thread closely. I'll definitely be following your lead on the drain and coolant upgrades.

    One of the first things you might want to tackle is to make a new drawbar. The square head design my Torus came with is not suitable for fast tool changes.
    Thanks for the drawbar tip. How are you changing tools? And I don't remember if you were using the quick change tools or not?

    Looking forward to seeing pics and reading about it. It is a pity that this is the last one.
    It is a nice machine at a low price point. I would probably have paid the extra for the Pulsar without balking though. Lots of nicer features than the Torus.
    Well, I won't have any pictures of the mill for another month and a half, unless people are bored enough to see the progress in getting the space destined for the Torus all cleaned up.

    Everyone keeps saying that the Pulsar is a nicer machine, but the main thing I kept hearing was that the stand did chip and coolant handling much better. But the stand is sold separately from the Pulsar, so I'm still not completely clear how the Pulsar alone is so much better than the Torus. The Pulsar is $7750 as compared to the Torus $6495, plus the Pulsar doesn't include the stand like the Torus. So I was looking at $6495 for the Torus as compared to $8500 for the Pulsar. I just never got a clear idea what the extra $2000 was buying for me. At $8500 for the Pulsar, I figured one should probably just spend an extra $2000 and go for the Torus Pro.

    Titaniumboy

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithmcelhinney View Post
    Going up to Toronto today to pick up my mill in the morning. I will say hi to yours for you!

    Power Draw Bar. Get one. No excuses. Not sure what quick change novakon sells but if it isn't compatible with Tormach I would pass and get the PDB. Also I would check the new stand out. Not sure how much more it is, but it is much better than the old one. I want to say it is $750 but better coolant, drains, chip evacuation, etc. I am going to post some pics in my take-off thread when I get home tomorrow night.
    I don't know if the Novakon quick change tools are Tormach compatible or not.

    I would like either a manual or power drawbar, but I think I will be making one from scratch. I would think the basic design of the Pulsar manual drawbar would be able to be adapted to the Torus?

    My mill is looking forward to your visit! Take pictures of my baby for me, OK?

    Titaniumboy

  6. #6
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    The big thing with he pulsar is you can do rigid tapping. Wish my pro would do rigid tapping...

  7. #7
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    The Torus does rigid tapping as well.
    I absolutely love that feature.
    The drawbar is one item that is better. I wasn't aware that the Pulsars stand was not included. I think the servo's are the other extra cost.
    My Torus should have come with the quick change tools, but didn't. I didn't worry about it though. I doubt I would have used them. Tormach tooling just makes it about as easy as it gets.

    Pictures are pictures. The shop cleanout will work.
    Lee

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    I don't know if the Novakon quick change tools are Tormach compatible or not.


    Titaniumboy
    Yes they are. Same collet and shank. In fact I ordered quite a few TTS tools from Tormach to use with my Pro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay View Post
    The drawbar is one item that is better. I wasn't aware that the Pulsars stand was not included. I think the servo's are the other extra cost.
    My understanding is that the stepper Pulsar is $7750 (without the stand). The servo Pulsar is $2000 more at $9750 (without the stand). This info is from what I can glean from the Novakon website, and isn't based on any other communication with Novakon.

    So that still leaves me really confused about what the extra cost of the Pulsar ($8500 with stand) over the Torus ($6495 with stand) was buying me.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay
    My Torus should have come with the quick change tools, but didn't. I didn't worry about it though. I doubt I would have used them. Tormach tooling just makes it about as easy as it gets.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaebis
    Yes they are [Novakon quick change tools are Tormach compatible]. Same collet and shank. In fact I ordered quite a few TTS tools from Tormach to use with my Pro.
    Why are the Tormach TTS tools being bought instead of the Novakon quick change tools? Is there a large difference in price or quality that would lead one to Tormach instead of Novakon?

    Titaniumboy

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    My understanding is that the stepper Pulsar is $7750 (without the stand). The servo Pulsar is $2000 more at $9750 (without the stand). This info is from what I can glean from the Novakon website, and isn't based on any other communication with Novakon.

    So that still leaves me really confused about what the extra cost of the Pulsar ($8500 with stand) over the Torus ($6495 with stand) was buying me.
    I think you should call john and Khai and ask. I think ~$1000 of it is the upgraded stand and the rest is various minor improvements.



    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    Why are the Tormach TTS tools being bought instead of the Novakon quick change tools? Is there a large difference in price or quality that would lead one to Tormach instead of Novakon?

    Titaniumboy
    Novakon doesn't have ER32 holders or the custom tools and accessories like the fly cutter, shell mill, TC tap heads, granite surface plate and height gauge, etc.

    The tormach stuff is decent quality. Never used the novakon stuff. Darkon sells good ER20 and ER32 holders too: http://www.darkonindustries.com/er32...--collets.html Also, Tosa Tools sells ER 32 holders but you need to call.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLineAuto View Post
    I think you should call john and Khai and ask. I think ~$1000 of it is the upgraded stand and the rest is various minor improvements.
    The Pulsar stand is $750 right now, so the other various improvements add up to $1245.



    Novakon doesn't have ER32 holders or the custom tools and accessories like the fly cutter, shell mill, TC tap heads, granite surface plate and height gauge, etc.

    The tormach stuff is decent quality. Never used the novakon stuff. Darkon sells good ER20 and ER32 holders too: ER32 Chucks / Collets - Darkon Industries Canada Also, Tosa Tools sells ER 32 holders but you need to call.
    Thanks for the info on the different quick change tools. I'll have to look into this some more.

    Titaniumboy

  12. #12
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    I'm looking into installing the leveling castors like LeeWay did on his Torus.

    Set of 4 Leveling Casters with 2" Wheels
    Attachment 218556

    Are there any issues with the wheels being only 2" in diameter? I have the following Grizzly Mini Mobile base installed on my G0704 bench mill, and while not a great setup, has 3" diameter wheels. Those 3" diameter wheels on the Grizzly base don't seem overly large.

    I'm concerned that the 2" wheels on the leveling castors might be an issue if I move the Torus over one of the concrete crack-prevention lines in my garage shop. These crack-prevention lines are much larger than I've seen before, and almost look like four separate concrete pads were poured. The crack-prevention lines are 3/8" to 5/8" wide, and I have to be careful when rolling smaller diameter wheels over them.

    https://www.grizzly.com/products/Min...le-Base/D2260A
    Attachment 218554

    Titaniumboy

  13. #13
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    About the TTS style tool holders: I bet most people buy from Tormach because that's all they know about or they feel like they should buy from the company that created them*. I definitely fell into both of these camps when I made my first few TTS purchases.

    I have now bought TTS-style tool holders from a few other companies. As with everything, they all had pros and cons. I won't get into the details here, but the biggest "con" I could find with Tormach's tool holders is their high price. If you can get over that you will probably be happy.

    You might be interested in this thread...
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...ce_runout.html
    (the TTS-specific stuff starts at post #11)

    * Tormach may or may not have actually "invented" this system but they do seem to be the dominant name associated with this style of tool holder. Even the other manufacturers refer to them as "TTS" holders. Whether this conjecture is reason-enough to buy from them or not is your call.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirudin View Post
    About the TTS style tool holders: I bet most people buy from Tormach because that's all they know about or they feel like they should buy from the company that created them*. I definitely fell into both of these camps when I made my first few TTS purchases.

    I have now bought TTS-style tool holders from a few other companies. As with everything, they all had pros and cons. I won't get into the details here, but the biggest "con" I could find with Tormach's tool holders is their high price. If you can get over that you will probably be happy.

    You might be interested in this thread...
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...ce_runout.html
    (the TTS-specific stuff starts at post #11)

    * Tormach may or may not have actually "invented" this system but they do seem to be the dominant name associated with this style of tool holder. Even the other manufacturers refer to them as "TTS" holders. Whether this conjecture is reason-enough to buy from them or not is your call.
    they are called TTS because it stands for TORMACH Tooling System, they originated them which is also why they sell the most variety of tool holders and not not just a couple of ER knockoffs.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    I'm looking into installing the leveling castors like LeeWay did on his Torus.

    Set of 4 Leveling Casters with 2" Wheels
    Attachment 218556
    According to the Ebay listing the capacity of those is 600 lbs. As I understand it, a set of 4 of those casters has a maximum capacity of 1200 lbs (twice the capacity of one caster). That might be a little on the low side for a Novakon mill.

    Mike

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    According to the Ebay listing the capacity of those is 600 lbs. As I understand it, a set of 4 of those casters has a maximum capacity of 1200 lbs (twice the capacity of one caster). That might be a little on the low side for a Novakon mill.

    Mike
    Leeway used them without issue. I will be using them as well. If you are concerned you can always use 6 instead of 4. I don't understand why they are only rated at 1200 total and 600 lbs each. You could always use 6 of them...

    Nate


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltpermenter View Post
    they are called TTS because it stands for TORMACH Tooling System
    ...
    Yes, obviously.

    Just because "TTS" is the prevailing name for this style of tool holder doesn't mean they *invented* it. No more than the Britishism "Hoover" to refer to a vacuum cleaner proves Hoover invented them or that Kleenex invented facial tissue. Even if any of these companies did invent any of these products, does that mean we, as consumers, should feel compelled to only purchase from them? Like I said, that's up to the buyer to decide.

    This topic has been discussed to death on CNCZone. Did they invent it? Is the invention novel enough to warrant exclusive rights to it? Did they just market the design more effectively? If there are answers to these questions that amount to more than conjecture I would very much like see them.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirudin View Post
    Yes, obviously.

    Just because "TTS" is the prevailing name for this style of tool holder doesn't mean they *invented* it. No more than the Britishism "Hoover" to refer to a vacuum cleaner proves Hoover invented them or that Kleenex invented facial tissue. Even if any of these companies did invent any of these products, does that mean we, as consumers, should feel compelled to only purchase from them? Like I said, that's up to the buyer to decide.

    This topic has been discussed to death on CNCZone. Did they invent it? Is the invention novel enough to warrant exclusive rights to it? Did they just market the design more effectively? If there are answers to these questions that amount to more than conjecture I would very much like see them.
    not conjecture, facts if you care about such things, do a little research.
    Tormach is the originator of a quick change tool holding system known as the Tormach Tooling System (TTS). Released in 2004...
    User:Tormachllc/Sandbox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    very early reference on these forums 11-29-2004 http://www.cnczone.com/forums/turboc...html#post55389
    now if you want to deny tormach their props that's your problem.
    if you have any facts to support your claim that they are not the originator lets see them otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLineAuto View Post
    Leeway used them without issue. I will be using them as well. If you are concerned you can always use 6 instead of 4. I don't understand why they are only rated at 1200 total and 600 lbs each. You could always use 6 of them...

    Nate


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    They worked fine in my case. Smooth concrete floor with broomed painted finish. It would not work as well if you had crack releif joints, though should work okay a few times. It is still a beast with the small wheels for sure. I would not want to move it much.
    Remember that the wheels are lifted up once in place and the machine is then on pads. I think 4 is fine. 6 would not hurt for rolling, but might make leveling more of a task.
    Lee

  20. #20
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    There is no aspect of TTS tooling that is remotely unique or patentable, which is why TTS is NOT patented. The ONLY patent Tormach has is a design patent which covers the cosmetic appearance of their set-screw holders. Everything else falls under prior art, having been in common use for decades before Tormach "invented" TTS.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

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