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Thread: KFLOP

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  1. #1
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    KFLOP

    Hello All,

    I have stopped by the Dynomotion forum to hopefully get some questions answered and some recommendations
    or direction. The Dynomtion products have come highly recommended by a lot of folks here that have
    responded to my PM's. I'm trying to retrofit my Anilam Crusader M to a PC based CNC and have already
    built and mounted my new PC, however my current PC does not have a parallel part and utilizes either USB
    or Ethernet. My current machine is a 3-axis that is powered by Baldor 140VDC servo with tachs that,
    the brush holders are worn and some of the leads are broken due to age. My old linear glass scales have
    eventually failed one by one. This is a Bridgeport Series 1 with a 2 HP, variable speed head, 230V
    3-phase motor. I have also added a Teco A510 VFD for spindle control and voltage to the motor.
    I would also like to be able to utilize the new retrofit as a manual machine with a DRO.

    I would like to try to utilize my original DC servos but will need to come up with new drivers, I have
    looked at Viper Servo Drives, other guys that have utilized these for their retrofits. Encoder, I have
    reached out to US Digital and should be able to come up with a usable encoder that will work with the
    Viper drives (that drives only utilizes rotary encoders, will not work with a magnetic linear type). Or
    I can replace the drives to something like a DMM Technology, NEMA 34. That brings up more challenges,
    this is my only mill, trying to fabricate adapter plates to fill to my original Anailam servo housings may
    be difficult.

    - Is the Dynomotion a closed loop system?

    - And if so, what components need to be utilized to close the loop?

    - My current machine also has a Bejur 110V lube pump, will the Dynomotion system be able to make this fully
    function-able and also be able to control some type of mist system through a output and M code commands?

    - Will I need just a KFLOP board or will I also need a Kanalog break out board?

    - Will I need any additional conponents?

    - What type of servos are compatible with the Dynomotion system?

    - Does the Dynomotion utilize linear or rotary encoder style encoders?

    - If I utilize my current Baldor DC style motors, what driver board are compatible with the KFLOP?

    - I currently utilize a CAD/CAM system, what post style does the KMotion accept?

    - Since I haven't decided on a current software package yet, besides the KMotion, is your components
    compatible with Mach 3/4, UCCNC?

    I'm open to suggestions and/or recommendations, this is my first retrofit rebuild.

    Thanks everyone for taking the time to view my post.

  2. #2
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    Re: KFLOP

    Quote Originally Posted by seapacer2 View Post
    Hello All,

    I have stopped by the Dynomotion forum to hopefully get some questions answered and some recommendations
    or direction. The Dynomtion products have come highly recommended by a lot of folks here that have
    responded to my PM's. I'm trying to retrofit my Anilam Crusader M to a PC based CNC and have already
    built and mounted my new PC, however my current PC does not have a parallel part and utilizes either USB
    or Ethernet. My current machine is a 3-axis that is powered by Baldor 140VDC servo with tachs that,
    the brush holders are worn and some of the leads are broken due to age. My old linear glass scales have
    eventually failed one by one. This is a Bridgeport Series 1 with a 2 HP, variable speed head, 230V
    3-phase motor. I have also added a Teco A510 VFD for spindle control and voltage to the motor.
    I would also like to be able to utilize the new retrofit as a manual machine with a DRO.

    I would like to try to utilize my original DC servos but will need to come up with new drivers, I have
    looked at Viper Servo Drives, other guys that have utilized these for their retrofits. Encoder, I have
    reached out to US Digital and should be able to come up with a usable encoder that will work with the
    Viper drives (that drives only utilizes rotary encoders, will not work with a magnetic linear type). Or
    I can replace the drives to something like a DMM Technology, NEMA 34. That brings up more challenges,
    this is my only mill, trying to fabricate adapter plates to fill to my original Anailam servo housings may
    be difficult.

    - Is the Dynomotion a closed loop system?

    - And if so, what components need to be utilized to close the loop?

    - My current machine also has a Bejur 110V lube pump, will the Dynomotion system be able to make this fully
    function-able and also be able to control some type of mist system through a output and M code commands?

    - Will I need just a KFLOP board or will I also need a Kanalog break out board?

    - Will I need any additional conponents?

    - What type of servos are compatible with the Dynomotion system?

    - Does the Dynomotion utilize linear or rotary encoder style encoders?

    - If I utilize my current Baldor DC style motors, what driver board are compatible with the KFLOP?

    - I currently utilize a CAD/CAM system, what post style does the KMotion accept?

    - Since I haven't decided on a current software package yet, besides the KMotion, is your components
    compatible with Mach 3/4, UCCNC?

    I'm open to suggestions and/or recommendations, this is my first retrofit rebuild.

    Thanks everyone for taking the time to view my post.
    Your the guy from practical machinist right? Glad you came over. I think this will be perfect control for you.

    - Yes it is closed loop in most cases, can also run open loop steppers

    - Anything with encoders feeding back to Kflop would be closed loop. Rotary encoders on the servos is most common

    - No problem to run that lube pump with a ssr or something. I have some code i can share to make it cycle every so many minuites, whatever timing you want.

    - Probably need Kflop and Kanalog for your machine. Should be enough inputs and outputs on the Kanalog board for a bridgeport. Konnect board can be added it you need more

    - Dynomotion is extremely flexible with different types of servos/drives. Not much it doesnt work with

    - Both types of encoders are compatable.

    - Most DC servo drives will work. Dynomotion snap amp will also work, but much lower voltage so would be slower. A bridgeport series 1 is not for production anyway though, might be fine.

    - Most universal fanuc posts will be fine.

    - It will work with Mach, but causes additional headaches. Kmotion will do everything you need.

    Good luck with the project.

  3. #3
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    Re: KFLOP

    I have talked to a guy who has actually ran these exact motors at a lower voltage, and yes this is not a production machine and I more than likely won't run it much over 200ipm. Will I need a Snap Amp for each servo? With that being said I assume I will need to come up with a different power supply?

  4. #4
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    Re: KFLOP

    KFLOP definitely supports closed loops. I think the first thing to decide is whether you want rotary encoder feedback from the motors or linear feedback from the tables. Linear feedback can be much more accurate but because there are more things within the control loop more difficult to tune and stabilize. With linear encoder feedback you usually need additional feedback from the motors (dual loop). This is because with only linear encoder feedback with things like backlash and compliance the motors can move with no information about this from the linear encoders making control difficult or impossible. Either tachometers or encoders on the motors help. If your selected Drive can accept encoder feedback from the motors and therefore allow the motors to move at a controlled velocity then that should work with linear scale feedback.

    I'm not a big fan of magnetic linear scales because they are normally based on 2mm magnets with a high level of interpolation rather than precise 20um optical lines. So they tend to be somewhat non-linear and noisy. But for some applications they are fine and tend to be more robust that optical scales from contamination and alignment.
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  5. #5
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    Re: KFLOP

    Good Morning Tom,

    Thanks for responding, OK, I have decided to replace the servos and go with DMM Tech 750K AC, NEMA 34 servos with rotary encoder and the DYN4 drives, am I looking any additional info to close the loop? And will the DMM servos work with your KFLOP board and software?

    DMM | NEW DYN2 AC Servo Drive | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER

    JP3 Encoder feedback connector
    Connector Type: IEEE1394 USB
    Drive Header: (3M) 3E106
    Plug Connector: (3M) 36210-0100FD

    Pin.1 +5VDC
    Pin.2 Gnd
    Pin. 3~4 NC
    Pin.5 S+
    Pin.6 S-


    Thanks, Mark

  6. #6
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    Re: KFLOP

    Hi Mark,

    You should be able to use our KFLOP + Kanalog connected to the +/-10V Analog Velocity input to that drive with AB differential quadrature encoder feedback back to Kanalog. And use our Free KMotionCNC Software.

    I'm not sure what that Firewire encoder connection is for but it probably isn't needed nor would work with our controls.

    HTH
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  7. #7
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    Re: KFLOP

    I have reached out to Stephen at DMM Technologies, he has supplied me with a wiring harness for the KFLOP/KANALOG to the DYN 4 servo driver. It looks pretty straight forward.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #8
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    Re: KFLOP

    Looks correct to me.
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  9. #9
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    Re: KFLOP

    Thanks for confirming. This should close the loop once software is installed, correct?

  10. #10
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    Re: KFLOP

    Yes it would be closed loop to the motor positions. To be closed loop to the table positions you would need to add linear encoders.
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  11. #11
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    Re: KFLOP

    I used a DMM AC motor and drive on my 4th axis and its working great. Encoder signals going back to Kanalog and all the tuning done with Dynomotion. I got best tuning results in torque mode. DMM servos can use step dir signals and work with some kind of auto tuning, but I didnt find this all that great. Torque mode avoids all of the tuning in the DMM drive and gives Kflop complete control, worked better for me.

    If your totally stuck with the motor mounts give me a shout. Might be able to help you if they are not too complex and your not in a hurry.

  12. #12
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    Re: KFLOP

    Thanks mmurray70,

    I think I have found a resolution for my motor mounts, I'm trying to utilize as much of the old components as possible without recreating the wheel. I may reach out to you once I acquire all my parts and start configurating the setup. The setup looks a little more intimidating than I think it is. I just need to make sure all the software and config downloaded to my machine PC.

  13. #13
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    Good Morning All,

    After talking to Stephen over at DMM, they are recommending and prefer the Step/Direction Card, what is the difference in this board vs. the Kanalog board? Does the KFLOP sit atop the Step/direction board just like the Kanalog board, or is the step/direction a stand alone board?

    If I need to go that route, will I still be able to run items like mist, and lube Punp? Do need to add an auxiliary I/o board?

    Thanks, Mark

  14. #14
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    Re: KFLOP

    Hi Mark,

    There are two basic approaches:

    #1 close the loop in the Drive. In this case the tuning and feedback in the Drive controls the motors to try to be at the position they should be. The main Controller (KFLOP) sends Step/Direction pulses to the Drives to tell them where they should go. The Step/Direction pulses come directly from KFLOP. No other option board is needed. KFLOP "is" the Step/Direction board.

    #2 close the loop in the Controller (KFLOP). In this case the tuning and feedback in KFLOP controls the motors to try to be at the position they should be. The main Controller (KFLOP) uses Kanalog to send analog +/-10V signals as either velocity or torque commands to the Drive to move toward the target position.


    Both methods can theoretically give the same performance. It is somewhat of a personal preference and how familiar you are with tuning using the tools for the Drive vs tools for the Controller. I prefer method 2 using KFLOP+Kanalog. It has the advantage of the Controller knowing the position at all times. Where in option 1 the Controller is basically blind to what is actually happening except possibly a fault signal coming from the drive that it failed. After a fault or disabling the drives the controller always knows the position so the axes can be re-enabled without loosing position and have to re-home.

    Some Users seemed to have some difficulties with the DMM drives in analog mode. But it wasn't clear what the issue actually was.

    Even though you don't need any option boards to provide Step/Direction signals to move the motors you will likely need an option board for other things like mist and VFD control and such. Kanalog provides various additional IO besides the Analog Outputs. The Step/Dir wiring diagram you posted earlier assumes a Konnect Option for the other IO.

    HTH
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  15. #15
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    Re: KFLOP

    Good Morning Tom,

    For my old Anilam Crusader M system, I utilized an older version of BobCad for my CAD/CAM software that I have had for awhile, BobCad supports a lot of us local guys with small shops in their area. I would like to be able to utilize that the my new retrofitted Kmotion, do you have a Post Process for the Kmotion software? Or can it be downloaded from your website?

    Thanks, Mark

  16. #16
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    Re: KFLOP

    Hi Mark,

    See this.

    HTH
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  17. #17
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    Re: KFLOP

    Thanks,

    At least that gives me a start.

  18. #18
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    Re: KFLOP

    Good Morning,

    The PC that is currently in my machine is a Windows 10 machine, is KMotion and KFLOP compatible with this version of Windows?

    Thanks,

  19. #19
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    Re: KFLOP

    Yes
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  20. #20
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    Re: KFLOP

    Perfect, Thank You

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