[JRoque]

Hello. I'm just a bystander on this thread and this might be a bit off the original topic but: Walt, thanks for trying to hire someone local and not sending your work overseas. That would mean no job opportunity at all. That said, there are other incentives tied to the company's success like performance bonuses or stock options that don't initially drain the available resources plus helps motivate workers toward a goal.

JR

[a1cadcam]

im just a by-stander too on this thread...
i have a cnc shop... and was looking to hire experienced workers... i did my time with apprentices.. hiring and training... so, $30+/hr.. sure i got lots of apps.. asked them to show me the screens on my Mazaks or Fadals... no-can-do... i offered to hire them for low $20s until they could show me independance.. they told me to stuff it.. that to me showed their lack of confidence in themselves.. and they would have learnt a couple of new controls! ... why should i pay top $ so that they can learn... if it where me looking for a job... id be more than willing to show the employer how valuable i am... and i did, and i learnt lots... and then i bought my own shop (15yrs ago or so).
the job is always 'honest'.... but the work output might not be and to that is the value the 'pay' is based on...
honest days work = honest days pay
PS

[Professorwiz]

I do have to agree that there seems to be a lot of people who BS their way into positions now. $40 an hour I was kidding, trying to make a point but for some of the specialized area's I don't think it's too far off. I've got 12 years of CNC machining, 1 year of strictly CNC 3d programming and I get $20. Why stay where I'm at, because I've been there so long. They have the same problem, they curse when they can't get people in here for that wage with the skills they want. When they do find someone at that wage, they are noobs that were smart enough to bs their way in.

[JRoque]

Wait. So you hired someone and they wouldn't show you how to do a certain task? I could be missing something but, isn't that why you hire them in the first place? It doesn't make sense. I am constantly trying to pass on to someone else whatever I know so I can move on to learn new things. Why would I ever want to carry around stale knowledge?? And don't tell me there's a limited number of ways to do something as a Machinist... there's always a better way waiting to be discovered.

Ok, stopping here to hear from others.

JR

[a1cadcam]

JRouque
if that was directed at me... i know how to run the machines i own... i know how to run alot of controls... the point was... i was looking to hire somebody who could help me out and run the shop... but if they cant even power up a Fadal and wont even try to figure it out.. i shouldnt be paying them $30+/hr... oh and then they dont program either... although they say they can manually edit programs...
ProffessorWiz.. $20/hr... that is low... sorry... a good programmer/cnc setup guy gets over $26 plus benefits... back when i quit to open my own shop, i was getting $26 and was offered $28 plus settign my own hours. that was in the big city... i have moved out to a smaller town... wages are cheaper here, but thanks to couriers, we manufacture big-city parts.. big city wages are over $30/hr i imagine

i also agree, i am still learning... there is always another way to 'skin a cat'

i think 'good help' is staying put, the ones out looking will be looking again in a year... if you know what i mean

[Professorwiz]

Yes I agree with $20/hr is too low, but where do you find a good employer nowadays that isn't going to go under. I've run the Mazak in Iso style not the Maztrol, Fadals, Enshu's with Fanuc but in the limited time I went out and looked I didn't see almost anybody wanting to pay $23. in the Detroit area. I did get one offer and probably should have taken it for $22, but it didn't seem worth it to start over with a new company for $2. an hour. There seems to be such a gloom and doom around here it's depressing, I'd much rather work at a place with enthusiasm about the future but really is $23 or plus benefits that much to ask anymore? I've also heard some people don't like to hire people with over 8 years, because they are set in their ways.. Where do you draw the line..Really? I also had one guy freak out kind of when he asked me my hobbies and I said I like to machine at home too and I've got a manual lathe and cnc mill that I tinker on. What is that all about??????

[a1cadcam]

yup.... a nice place to work and lower pay is way better than big money and hating to go to 'work'... i was there...

[Rockyr49]

yup.... a nice place to work and lower pay is way better than big money and hating to go to 'work'... i was there...

You said a mouth full. Not that I'm complaining about my pay...but I also work for the best people I have ever met. That's one of the advantages of working for a small company. You get treated like a member of the family. I started with them 15 yers ago to try to get through a time of unemployement. Figured as soon as something better came along I'd take it and stay home every night. Here I am as we speak (or type) at a PC in Livonia, MI. 400 miles from home. Loving every minute of it. I'll do it until they throw me out.
Thanks boss.

Rocky

[trubleshtr]

Good help is hard to find these days hee hee hee....that's why I started my own industrial automation repair business.......

[tobyaxis]

Now seeing the error in my post. At times we forget the facts. Do to too many people saying the they are machinist that aren't employers must do something to weed out who souldn't be there. Sorry, my rant wasn't directed at anyone. The fustration of finding a good employer is equilly as hard as finding good help these days. 90% of the places I work the mension of having a Manual Mill, Lathe and CAD/CAM rases a lot of questions, specifically fellow co-workers. I love what I do, and do what I love. Isn't it wiser to hire someone that Loves what they do over someone that Hates what they do?
Living in NY there are a lot of EGO's here. If some one thinks that you can move up they do everything possible to keep you down, rumors etc. Why are people this way, money and EGO. I really wish companies would weed out these types.

Just a thought.

[Rockyr49]

Bottom line is you are worth what the market will pay you. You might thinks you are worth $30 and hour, but if the market where you are is paying $15, then tha'ts what you are worth. I'm trying to sell my house. I think it's worth $150,000. The real estate agent says more like $125k. Might sell for $115K. Then that's market value. Same with work. I might be worth more somewhere else, but as it is now, I'm being paid what the market says I'm worth. If I don't like it I can look elsewhere. Not gonna happen though.

Rocky

[MrMold]

Did you know that nearly 25% of the Tool and Die Makers in the USA are no longer employed in the last 5 years. In Michigan, the state that employs the most has 33% less. Michigan unemployment rate nearly double the national average.
I started my business about 10 years ago and have seen many of the companies I did business with fail. I used to employ as many as 10 people, but now run the shop myself. I was offered a job recently and was concidering it until I found out that they were only willing to pay me what I made 20 years ago. I have a steady flow of qualified people coming into my shop looking for work (wish I could employ them). There is no shortage of employees. The last job I bid was awarded to a Chineese firm for less than my material cost. Could some one please explain this to me.

[tobyaxis]

With you 110%. Our Gov't is selling us out. Global Trade is Killing everyone. Overseas they don't even have to respect our copyright laws or patents. Which means that an American Companies will fail. Not Far, but we have to be far to all, go figure. What can we do when US companies take advantage of them as well. As seen around the world crime is going up rapidly, even here in quiet out of the way places. What Can We Do?

Realizing this is the wrong forum for chit chat, but this is a real problem. What Do We Do About It?

tobyaxis :frown:

[Draconious]

I use to do AutoCAD detailing/design/layout for automotive tooling, was layed off... with the exception of ebay, a temp job at best buy, and some minor contract work with photo shop.. I've been unemployed for over 7 years. Mooching off parents... who were also unemployed (same jobs only unigraphics) for a year or so, they moved to chicago, got a job quite fast, lots of jobs there, left me hear in this house till its sold.

Some say the chineese are intentionly loosing money on as many jobs as they can get from usa... to put as many companies under as possible. I laugh as I say this cuz its silly... but who knows.

Anyway I am taking CAM/CAD/CNC/RP classes/certificute... class starts within a few weeks. I am willing to take a CnC related job just to learn it... and I dont really care what it pays lol... I need to flipping eat.

[Docdie]

I'm in Central Illinois and the Co. I work for has dwindled us tool/mold makers to 3 in our shop and are sending new tooling to Tiwan. We still do protype molds but that will be going away soon as well. The gent who said they quote for what material costs is correct how can we compete with that?

[Professorwiz]

All you have to do is look where all the material is coming from these days. Alot of it comes from China. The tarrifs here push the material prices way up to protect "American steel workers" But now most of the steel mills are owned by overseas interests. Rouge is owned by the Russians now (OR whatever that country is calling itself these days).

[cncjobs]

Hey this is just my job, The shops in michigan will only pay them so much they dont care how much skill they have

[Jer7440]

"How can the Chinese qoute the job for the cost of your materials?" you ask. It's easy, their people are lucky if they are making 1/10th of what you and I are making. How much more competitive would your company be if the employees were willing to work for $2.50/hr instead of $20-$25?

Part of the "World Economy" theory is that everyone should be equal (this worked out so well for the communists). It's way easier to bring the American worker down than it is to raise everyone else up. I live in MI, in the Grand Rapids area. Tool and Die shops have been dropping like flies around here. To survive you have to be smart and as efficient as possible.

[jason_l]

China: one of my hobbies is making watches. The chinese can make a mechanical watch and sell it for $20. A mechanical watch with the same "functions" from anywhere else will usually retail at a grand and up! Often times several grand. The watches I make cost me several hundred dollars in parts alone (often $400-500), with less "functions" usually. Luckily, "made in china" caries a huge stigma in the mechanical watch world and has an entirely different market.

Wages: I have been considering going into low-scale production of my watches. A key point in my business plan is to break my dependence on overseas (swiss) makers of stainless steel watch cases. This means working with a machinist. As much as I have always been interested in machining, cnc, and fabrication in general, my business plan may likely require my time spent elsewhere if my production capabilities are to reach my goal. Regardless of how much I "wish" I could get this help for, my business plan will need to accomodate the reality of the market rates. If it can't, then I have to accept that my business plan is a bust as-is and will require changes. That's the reality of business.

It is sad when people won't blink an eye when paying the mechanic 65-100/hr, but then can't handle paying those same rates to other professions/trades (from plumbers to computer programers).

[eugene5645]

hello Melissa and every one else.. first off this is my e-mail addy. [email protected]. if you have any suggestions, or can be of any help PLEASE e-mail me direct.. thanks.. i have 20 years experience on acme screw machines. 19 years of which being set-up trouble shooting experience. i am highly skilled when it comes to cutting metal, and know screw machines inside and out.. in 2000 i took some cad/cam courses. i took computer aided manufacturing 1 and 2. two years worth of schooling. i have certificates of completion with outstanding achievement. i learned how to program haas mills and lathes. on paper, and using cad/cam programs. i also learned how to program a wire EDM. i really enjoyed it. i would love to do this kinda work for a living. right now i am working. i am a screw machine department supervisor. i make in the 20`s.. does anyone know of a shop that would hire me? without a drastic pay-cut. if anyone know of a shop. PLEASE let me know. i am really interested in a career change. thanks for your time..