[l u k e]

I'm in the market for a new CNC mill and there seem to be many to choose from. I'm looking for a Toolroom mill or perhaps a larger VMC. So, before I make a blundering mistake can you guys tell me who the trusted names in the industry are?

[andy55]

try browsing the websites of the big producers: haas, hurco, mazak, fadal, bridgeport, sharp, mikron, etc. to name a few. Your choice could also depend on what make your nearest dealer supports/services etc.

how much $ do you want to spend and what do you want to do with the machine ?

[l u k e]

I'm not buying the machine for one specific job and don't want to limit myself to the work I'm currently doing because I will end up wishing a had something bigger. I don't want to choose a machine solely based on cost and what I'm doing today.

I'm not really asking "what machine should I buy" but really "who the leading manufacturers of CNC mills are?

What I want to do is compare the top manufactures and their machines within the price range I'm comfortable with. I'm looking for the best deal and the most machine. But, I don't want to compare a machine like a Hass to a no name brand machine that hasn't proved itself to the industry yet.

My problem is I'm not sure who the leading manufactures in the industry are. (?) There are many things to consider, but I want to start by weeding out companies with a bad or unproven reputation.

[tim-tbl]

Try xyz maxhine tools and Excel machine, they make some fairly good and reasonably priced Bridgeport turret mill clones.

[Caprirs]

Your budget will greatly influence what market you are in. For example, if you want the top manufacturers of VMCs, consider Mori Seiki. I think their entry level machines are north of $150K. Mazak also makes excellent machines in the $120K range I think. Kitamura makes nifty machines.

Mid-market machines like the Okumas, Daewoos, and Femco will be closer to $100K.

Commodity machines like Haas and Fadal can get you in for $60K.

You can also spend $30K-$45K on a hot rodded knee mill with a control like the Anilam, Servo, or Centroid control. But these have no automatic tool changer, no splash gaurd, no ability to rigid tap, and take up nearly the same floor space as a small VMC.

The performance differences are night and day on these. Without knowing what your end use is, it is difficult to point towards a specific brand. For instance, Haas only uses linear guide ways which are awful if working with molds and dies. On the other hand, a machine with box ways goes through a lot of way lube contaminating the coolant sump more rapidly than a linear guide machine. It is important the machine match the work you intend to do.

Most of the builders make good machines these days but the local support from dealers can vary and make even a good machine useless. Perhaps asking local shops what sort of experience they've had with the local dealers will shed more light on what would be best for you.

[l u k e]

I guess I would be in the "tool room size" class. I'm working with aluminum 99.99% of the time.

Currently I have a small online business that I make and sell custom after-market parts for paintball guns. It is pretty much a part time/hobby business, but it's doing well.

I'm also getting into making custom motorcycle parts for a local guy and would like to expand locally for the other 2 custom bike shops.

I'm currently running a Bridgeport want-a-be Import and find myself spending days instead of hours making parts. I just want to step up production so I can quit my day job.

My budget is in the $50k range.

[DareBee]

Working with small(ish) aluminum pieces I very highly recomend getting a 15k RPM spindle, if your going to spend the money you might as well be able to make up some time.
If you will be doing any tapping whatsoever (even if maybe) make sure to get rigid tap option. I would never buy a machine without.
4 axis is also great - even for simple parts, I run square stock in mine in a self centering 4jaw chuck, I don't even think about using a vise anymore.

[fpworks]

You probably won't be able to get a 15k spindle on a $50k budget, so at least spring for the rigid tapping option. You'll be glad when you look finish a batch of parts with hundreds or thousands of tapped holes!

A good place to start looking is Fadal 2216L or Haas VF1, if your parts and fixtures will fit in the machine's work envelope.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a used machining center, but that is just my opinion. Just make sure that you are very well informed and prepared if you decide to invest in a used machine.

Consider the following in your budget as well:
tool holders
workholding
CAM package. (if you don't already have a CAM package)
electrical power
air supply

Justin

[l u k e]

I do believe Fadal has a higher spindle speed compaired to a Hass in the same price range, I'll have to do more reasearch.

The tooling part is kinda of a bummer because I spent a bundle setting up my manual mill, now I'll have to pretty much start over. But like they say you must spend money to make money.

I'm not really concidering a used machine, stuff like this I perfer to buy new...

[l u k e]

I do have a Fadal and a Hass dealer with in 100 miles of where I live...

[Caprirs]

Haas and Fadal both make good machines. It's easy to get support and parts are available (and for a long time to come). If you expand the business, potential employees are most likely to be familiar with those two machines.

Used machines are fine if you are comfortable repairing them and can get the parts. There are great deals to be had but there are a lot of potential pitfalls. Additionally, if you will be fairly busy making parts, then down time can be a deal breaker as the lost production can offset the lower entry price. The best used machines come from someplace you already know so the history is established and there are no surprises.

With the aluminum parts, more spindle rpm typically means faster cycles.

[andy55]

The performance differences are night and day on these. Without knowing what your end use is, it is difficult to point towards a specific brand. For instance, Haas only uses linear guide ways which are awful if working with molds and dies. On the other hand, a machine with box ways goes through a lot of way lube contaminating the coolant sump more rapidly than a linear guide machine. It is important the machine match the work you intend to do.

Hi Capris,

Could you expand on this a bit ? why would linear guide ways be bad for molds and dies ?

[l u k e]

What I found curious about the two companies is that with Hass, they boast about ease of programing, no G-code experience necessary etc. With Fadal there seems to be little emphasis on the control. The conversational programing is a must for me up front.

It's a little annoying that Hass seems to be the only company (from what I've found so far) that lists the pricing on their machines and options.

[Caprirs]

I apologize for over generalizing. The linear guides found in inexpensive machines (like Haas and Bridgeport) are inadequate for real mold/die work as they lack rigidity for doing the heavy material removal required. If the mold/die is small, they will be acceptable but on large molds, they do not do so well.

There are companies that use linear guides and advertise them as mold machines such as those found on Makino HMCs and Mori Seiki machines. However, compare the guides between the Makino and the Haas and the difference is instantly obvious. The guideways on a machine like the Haas will be 1"-2" wide and the carraige will be only ~4" long. The Makino will have a guideway that is 6" wide and the carraige 12" long. Of course, the price is significantly different as well.

A good article on the different types of guideways: http://www.americanmachinist.com/304...le/False/8001/ Some skepticism though as the "experts" quoted are working for the machine tool builders so they may be biased in their statements.

[Caprirs]

Luke,

As far as I know, Haas is the only machine that is not negotiable on price. That is why they list the price on the web. When you call the local dealer, they just take the machine order with no haggling. Most other builders sell the machines to their dealers for approximately 15% less than list price and allow the dealer to do what is needed to "make the deal". Haas is akin to Saturn cars.

The conversational programming can be great when you are getting started and trying to learn. It can also be an impediment once you are comfortable on the control and want to do more complex tasks and programs.

[l u k e]

As far as I know, Haas is the only machine that is not negotiable on price. That is why they list the price on the web. When you call the local dealer, they just take the machine order with no haggling. Most other builders sell the machines to their dealers for approximately 15% less than list price and allow the dealer to do what is needed to "make the deal". Haas is akin to Saturn cars.

Oh, I didn't know that.

The conversational programming can be great when you are getting started and trying to learn. It can also be an impediment once you are comfortable on the control and want to do more complex tasks and programs.

Yea I defiantly know that learning G-code is a must, but in this case I must put the cart before the horse or the CNC mill won't happen. Until I own one, learning G-code won't be a priority.

I'm guessing anything I'm currently making on my manual mill can easily be programed in the conversational mode. I'm hoping to put the machine right to work while learning all I need to make the most of the CNC capabilities.

[DareBee]

Fadal has the 32MP control which has a PC and CAM system built into it.

[l u k e]

I just did a google search and read up on the 32MP control. Based on that artical and what I've read on the Hass site, the 32MP seems to be the more versatile control. (?)

[fpworks]

Luke,

As far as I know, Haas is the only machine that is not negotiable on price. That is why they list the price on the web. When you call the local dealer, they just take the machine order with no haggling. Most other builders sell the machines to their dealers for approximately 15% less than list price and allow the dealer to do what is needed to "make the deal". Haas is akin to Saturn cars.

I guess this is dependent on the dealer. The Haas dealer for my area came down on the price quite a bit during negotiations.

The conversational programming can be great when you are getting started and trying to learn. It can also be an impediment once you are comfortable on the control and want to do more complex tasks and programs.

I think conversational programming is most useful when doing one-off tasks, such as fixturing and tool making for you shop. I don't think that it is an impediment for other things...but it is needed less frequently. Personally, I rarely-to-never use conversational programming. The speed at which I can accomplish a one-off part is far more dependent on my CAM software than the control interface. Since I program and operate my machine, I will ALWAYS go to my CAM system first, unless it is for something really simple.

As far as the control is concerned, both brands are flexible enough to get the job done if you're doing 2.5D work with 7.5k or 10k rpm spindles...but a better control (such as a Fanuc AI-NANO) will really shine when you are doing high speed, high resolution 3D contouring. Take a look at what you need the machine to do for you...if this is not your niche, any Fadal or the Haas control will do fine.

In all reality, I use the control during setup and loading a debugging a program. Then I turn off the monitor and use my favorite button: the big green one. :cheers: How much does conversational programming matter at that point? Since you need the machine for production...none!

Justin

[l u k e]

Can you (or anyone ) explain how CAM works?

Does it generate G-code from a CAD drawing?