[MrMetric]

Hi,
I need to make some changes to the SYSTEM PARAMETERS of my Dyna DM4400M Mitsubishi Meldas M3 controlled mill. Specifically, I want to add a fourth axis. The Dyna manual happily shows the screens that need to be modified, but neglects to tell you how to get into those areas. I found the USER PARAMETERS and MACHINE PARAMETERS areas, but the SYSTEM PARAMETERS area a complete mystery to me. They are not mentioned in any of the Mitsubishi manuals I got with the machine, and I have had no luck finding the information in my online searches as well.

If anyone knows how to edit these values, I would be very interested in hearing from you!

Thanks!

[MrMetric]

System Parameters are a protected feature, it turns out. I managed to figure it out though, and I'm well on my way to getting a 4th axis working now, which is cool. I had problem getting the amp tuned, but technical support was phenomenal and they gave me some pointers.

None of this is for the feint of heart. I had to tinker around a lot with a logic analyzer and such. This generation of Meldas drive does not use flux feedback, so you can't just plop any encoder on the drive and have it work. Only BEI or Tasagawa have encoders that have UVW timing tracks for the corresponding UVW AC power of the servo. Kind of a pain, if you ask me. And the manuals are not not best. The information is there, but it isn't very easy to find. Sigh.

[legendboy]

I feel your pain, the old Meldas controls are rock solid but just old (1990?)

I have a 1997 L3 slant bed lathe, Mitsubishi tech support is really great! If you need a contact, pm me and I will give you the info.
Its too bad they took the L3 and M3 manuals off their site

[MrMetric]

Hi and thank you for the response....

I actually didn't realize that Mitsubishi removed the manuals. I was able to get those from them, and a *whole* lot more, last year, but you had to create an account to access the area. Frankly, I kind of stumbled on the information. The manuals are not all that well written, though, and they definitely do not have any of the information in there about accessing the protected areas. Mitsubishi was willing to send a service guy out to my house and do the work, but the travel time was prohibitively expensive. This is a hobby machine for me, so I don't derive any income from it. Paying rates typically structured for entities that are profit centers is a whole other beast. I'm not saying Mitsubishi was out of line, but for the hobby person it was way more than I could justify.

As it turns out, I was lucky. I found a ratty old sheet that had some notes on it. Clearly the previous owner had to get into the protected area and had talked to someone that knew how to do it. The long and the short of it is that I was able to enable the fourth axis. I'm still working on some mechanical issues, but it all works from the perspective of integration into the control (mechanical being that I had to change to a Mitsubishi servo, which has a different mounting arrangement than the original servo).

I was wondering what type of CAM system you are using for your machine. One of the challenges for me is that I don't have anyone to really ask questions about this stuff because I'm not in the trade. My old Hurco was conversational so I didn't have any G-code at all. But this guy needs a post processor and nobody seems to really have one for the Meldas. Is the post processor a generic Fanuc guy? The net result of my quest there is that I haven't been able to find an inexpensive CAM system to pursue because I cannot find the post search problem. I'm in a little bit of a conundrum.

[hwgasdfasdf]

Hi and thank you for the response....

As it turns out, I was lucky. I found a ratty old sheet that had some notes on it. Clearly the previous owner had to get into the protected area and had talked to someone that knew how to do it. The long and the short of it is that I was able to enable the fourth axis. I'm still working on some mechanical issues, but it all works from the perspective of integration into the control (mechanical being that I had to change to a Mitsubishi servo, which has a different mounting arrangement than the original servo).

So can you fill us in on how to get there, or are you just teasing your secret?

[MrMetric]

No, not trying to tease. The reality is that I was responding to a query about something else and I didn't have the information available to me on how to get into that area of the setup. I'm not near the information now too, so I still can't update here.

I do have to add that it seems like nobody uses the L3/M3 controls anymore. There was little interest when I was asking about the controls, zero interest in the low level config, and even zero interest when I've queried multiple groups about what type of control the M3 mimics when it comes down to finding a post for the control. Honestly, it seems like a dead subject.

If I remember, I can post the info on the low level setup, but will anyone ever care? Happy to do it though.... I just have to remember to get the info and update here. If I forget, feel free to PM me.

[hwgasdfasdf]

Oh, hey there "stranger" from different communication channels and didn't know your username here! I didn't mean to be a jerk, I just figured I'd also need to get there at some point, so why is there a post here teasing how to do it, but not actually telling me how to do it

For anyone else that comes across this trying to figure out their old Meldas M3 control, we're going to check if both talking about the same thing, but I think it's just:

To switch from "user" parameters to "machine" parameters
ALARM/DIAG -> PLC-I/F
type 1001 into device, blank for data, and "M" into mode and press input (M for Machine parameters)

to switch back to User parameters, same as above, but "U" for User parameters.

This completely changes the parameter screens you can access through the TOOL/PARAM button.

BUT this is only to switch between User and Machine parameters, NOT System Parameters so clearly there is a secret here still...

In the manuals I have with my machine, this is actually listed in multiple places, but they don't really tell you what you're doing. It's even in the M3 Instruction manual, but buried in an appendix!

I prefer to understand how the control works, not just mindlessly press incantations of button press sequences listed in the manual.

[MrMetric]

LOL. A "jerk" you are not! I can personally attest to that. I have appreciated our dialog both on the CNC forums and personally. You have a plethora of information and ideas that I always welcome.

You did bring up a very legitimate point, though. I never finished off on updating the other thread with the "how" of getting into the system parameters, as had been my original intent. Even though you and I seem to be one of the few folks interested in the M3 control now, the reality is that sooner or later, someone else is going to stumble into our little discussion and probably want this information. I believe in disclosure and dissemination of info, and to that end, I "owe" the other thread the method by which you enter system param mode. Once I dig it out, I'll post to the other thread.

[MrMetric]

I couldn't find the other post where I had asked the question about system parameters. If I find it later, I'll update it with this information. In the meantime, the following process allows you to gain access to the *SYSTEM* Parameters. These are not detailed anywhere in the manuals, so you'll have to be a little creative on figuring out what they are for. I'd definitely take notes on what these were before you start mucking with them:

1. 'ALM-DIAGN" button
2. 'PLC-I/F' soft key
3. DEVICE DATA MODE
(300) () (S)
4. 'INPUT' button
5. 'TOOL/PARAM' button
6. You should now have access to the system parameters. Make changes as desired
7. Power cycle the machine to put the parameters into effect

Machine Parameters. Same As above except step #3
DEVICE DATA MODE
(1001) () (M)

The machine parameter entry process and a description of the parameters themselves are published in the Mitsubishi manuals that were shipped with the machine.

[Matt_smith185]

I have a leadwell mcv-op and the battery in the control had died so parameters are lost, would anyone happen to have a parameter backup for this machine it's running on a Mitsubishi meldas L2/l3

Thanks

[MrMetric]

Matt:
I don't have the parameter information for your specific configuration, but I'm pretty sure you could get close.... And you might not need to do much. Let me explain.

I had a tangential conversation on the phone yesterday that is trying to get his Dyna mill running. It has been sitting there for 8 years without power, so the battery was definitely completely depleted. Now, he hasn't gotten complete success yet (had a bad amp to deal with, etc), but one thing he did notice was that the parameters seem to all be correct. This let to an extensive conversation and some conjecture about how the machines may be designed. The other gentleman mentioned that either in the manuals or in a discussion with Mitsubishi, the existence of EEPROM came up. This is essentially memory that does't need a battery to remain in its programmed state. So, what does that really mean? Well, I know for a fact that the ladder logic (which essentially customizes the control to a particular mechanical machine) is in EPROM. But EPROM is slow. My *theory* is that all of the "initialization" steps that you can find on this (and similar) sites is actually doing a pretty simple task. I theorize that it is formatting battery backed up RAM (hence not capable of lasting for a long time because the battery will be drained) and then copying the ladder logic from EPROM to this RAM. In this fashion you would have fast ladder logic.

Parameter information, is not that big, which is definitely a differentiator from ladder logic. Due to the small size, the parameter data could easily be destined to be stored in EEPROM and read during startup. IF this theory is true, then you may be in good shape. You could simply reformat your RAM using the steps described (you have them?) and then see if everything seems like it is configured properly (lots of poorly written Mitsubishi manuals to review there)... If it does, then you are set! Needless to say, you *should* make a backup of those parameters as soon as possible!

One area that you *will* have a problem, however, is with macros that are needed to run the machine. An example of this might be the tool change subroutine. These are stored in RAM and will *NOT* survive a battery failure. You will either have to come up with your own solution there or find someone that has a similar machine.

Hope this helps....
Alan

[robl71459]

Hello Everyone
This is my first post here. I recently purchased 2 Dyna Mechatronics machines, a DM4400m vmc and a Dm3300m turn center.
I recently (past couple of weeks) managed to get the VMC running. It needed a battery, power supply and servo drive. I am wanting to get both of them running in there original state, so I can experience the machines in there as built state.
meaning using the original controls and hardware, I have worked in the machine tool industry for over 40 years. and also have a home shop for myself.
I have retrofitted machines both in my career and in my hobby. I am eager to connect with whoever can help me get my machines up and running. This site is wonderful!
and have been lurking for some time now. I have only a couple of manuals for the controls, no Dyna Mech info other than what i have found here.

Rob

P.S. I am very interested in any information I can get from anyone willing to share it, Thank You, in advance.

[MrMetric]

Hi Rob,
I suspect I actually know the machines that you have. Are they the ones that were listed on eBay a while back? If so, you got them for a song, and they looked like they were in decent shape. Yeah, so rust, but it looked like surface stuff...

I've got a 4400m and probably have all the information you need. At this point I'm actually starting to feel comfortable with the control configuration and such. I'm not really operating it yet, but I have repaired some drives and such. It is interesting. I've got an S12 that I'm trying to get running right now. What I really want to do is acquire some broken drives so that I can learn more about fixing them. My background as originally in electrical engineering, but not so much in the power electronics. And, the majority of my career has been in software, which is what I do now. Doing the work on the drives has given me a chance to dust off old skills and to get the oil moving in that part of my brain.... And, it feels good!

Alan

[robl71459]

Hi MrMetric
You sir are absolutely correct, They are indeed those machines! And I actually paid significantly less, due to the fact that
someone had been attempting repair work and left it incomplete!
Now, before I go any further, I want to apologize to everyone for how I thread bombed the posts here.
After reading my own post.... I now realize that I was out of line. My post sounded like I was looking for a hand out!
I am not, just hoping to smooth out the learning curve i will be having while getting these machines producing again.

So... Sorry to anyone I may have offended. And I will watch my manners better in the future.

Rob

[MrMetric]

Actually, I didn't get that feeling at all. :-) I went back and re-read the post and I (personally) still don't see this as a thread bomb.

Why don't you send me a PM with your phone number and timezone. If you are in the US, I'll just give you a call and get that low down on where you are on the machines, etc. I'm actually curious about the lathe, now that I've worked on my VMC for a while. But CNC is CNC... I doubt the lalthe is much different (from a control perspective) than the VMC

[dynoman8618]

MrMetric/LegendBoy/hwgasdfasdf

No intent to hijack this thread but I also have a Mitsubishi Meldas M3 control running on a supermax Rebel 1. The maching lost it's paramerter from sitting and a dead battery. After almost a year I was able to get the machine up and running almost 100% the only issues I have with the machine is the Manual Numeric command for M, S, T codes does not allow Tools changes using the T function. the Manual Numeric Command is avaialble in several locations including the tool setting pages as well. the M codes and the S functions work correctly however the T does not. I am able to issue tool changes using T# amd M06 using MDI or via automatic program just find but the M in Manual Numeric command continues to give me an error codeT002 I think unable to complete. I have been told i need to have a too change macro but I do not have a tool change macro. I would think a T#M06 command in MDI or in a program would not work if that was required. any help would be greatly appreciated.

Also there is one other thing which is there are two types of Tool offsets. a Type1 and Type 2. i know before this machine went down it had a type 2 which has the tool lenght as well as the diameter offset in the same parameter. with a Type 1 you have to put each in a different offset location. does anyone know how to get the Type 2 function again. I read a couple posts about making a parameter change and powering the maching but I don't have such a parameter Please let me know if you have any info on this issue.

Lastly I know info on this topic is very difficult to find so if you would like to work together i am more then happy to help out and work with any fellow machinists with these controls

Thanks

Dynoman8618

[A1CNC]

Thanks for the info on how to get to the system parameters. I have a supermax rebel 3 with a meldas m3 that has sat for 2 years unpowered and I am trying to get it back up.

Made huge progress today, Had the monitor finally displaying and was able to get into the machine parameters but was lost on getting to the system params.

Dyno man, Not sure what trouble you are having as it sounds like you can do a toolchange in MDI or when running a program. On my older meldas MO machines, I had to enter a G28 Z0. Before a T##M6 command for it to work.

Maybe something similar for you.

MrMetric, Are you still looking for a post or cam system to use with the M3 control?

[MrMetric]

It turns out that the parameter dump isn't too hard to decipher, and you can probably update system parameters that way too. They are not encrypted or abstracted in any way.

dyno... Unfortunately I cannot help you with the tool changer macro. Each machine is going to be different. In fact, it is highly likely that some TC would not even *be* in a macro but, instead, embedded into the ladder logic. All of this is really the decision of the machine integrator. Let's take my DM4400m as an example. On that machine, there is a subsystem that manages the tool change process. Think of this as an indexer. The M3 control literally just says, "hey I want to load the tool in carousel position 3". It is the subsystem's responsibility (which has its own CPU) to make that action happen. Yes, there is a little more to it than that because the M3 has to move the Z down and up for the change operation, but fundamentally, most of the work is done on the subsystem. The tool change macro simply handles the interface.

The point is that you will need to get this from another owner of a working model of your machine.... Otherwise you will have reverse engineer the whole idea of how it works. It wouldn't be impossible, but it could easily be a PITA and beyond a lot of people's scope of ability.... It would be far easier, safer, and faster, to just find someone with a working machine. The macro will likely be in protected memory space. You can read up on that in the manuals. May TC macro is #9000, as I recall.

A1CNC... Yes, I'm still on the hunt for a CAM that will work well with an M3 control. Please PM me on info if you have something... Thanks!

Alan

[A1CNC]

I have been using Bobcad for years with Mitsubishi MO and M520 controls. Now that I have a M3 machine I am sure that I can make the post play nice with the M3

[fedosgad]

Hello and sorry for bumping old thread!
MrMetric, do you by any chance have information about accessing system parameters on Meldas 64 system? I'm unable to check your method right now, but will do it as soon as I get to the machine.