[heilcnc]

OK I GIVE UP I MUST HAVE BEEN DREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ihavenofish]

OK I GIVE UP I MUST HAVE BEEN DREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nothing wrong with dreaming, just have to have the dream based in real life if you want them to happen.

[mactec54]

I thought I need to say something Heilcnc Dreaming is good putting/turning that dream
into something is hard but it can be done the US can compete with China I do every day & so do many others by just making something that they do just do it a little better they are getting better every day with what they make but also as they get better there price also gets higher soon there price will go to high to buy then the market will come back were US made will be at the same price what will you buy support the US made or by the same priced made in China

[ihavenofish]

I thought I need to say something Heilcnc Dreaming is good putting/turning that dream
into something is hard but it can be done the US can compete with China I do every day & so do many others by just making something that they do just do it a little better they are getting better every day with what they make but also as they get better there price also gets higher soon there price will go to high to buy then the market will come back were US made will be at the same price what will you buy support the US made or by the same priced made in China

are you two the same person? you both share the same passion for punctuation.

[dertsap]

theres no reason that someone in the US or Canada can't build a bench top mill , It's not rocket science , its just the simple fact that someone hasn't cashed in on the Branding yet . It is absolute bs to think that castings can't be made in North America , there are plenty of places to get castings but in order to get them at a decent price then the orders need to be a decent size , I'm sure for the beginner there would be some electrical parts that need to be sourced out to begin with . The thing is it's easy to speak out on a forum which is involved in manufacturing and create a huge out cry that we need to keep our manufacturing here and that we will pay more to support it , its another thing to convince Joe public to do the same ., WE'RE THE MINORITY

[heilcnc]

your right it happened to the Japanese as you can see the stuff from china keeps going
up the more they westernize the more there people will make in wages

[ihavenofish]

theres no reason that someone in the US or Canada can't build a bench top mill , It's not rocket science , its just the simple fact that someone hasn't cashed in on the Branding yet . It is absolute bs to think that castings can't be made in North America , there are plenty of places to get castings but in order to get them at a decent price then the orders need to be a decent size , I'm sure for the beginner there would be some electrical parts that need to be sourced out to begin with . The thing is it's easy to speak out on a forum which is involved in manufacturing and create a huge out cry that we need to keep our manufacturing here and that we will pay more to support it , its another thing to convince Joe public to do the same ., WE'RE THE MINORITY

actually its the opposite. its very easy to get an affordable high quality all us/canadian built electrical setup. steppers, servos, motors, drivers are still cheaply made here in small volume. of course many of the discrete components are from taiwan, but thats unavoidabe if you want the best.

castings is a hard one... granted he chose a bad exampe with the X6 i think. if you took the BF20, which has about 220lbs of iron, you could easily have those made in small volume in north america for $500. this is non treated/hardened gray iron, nothing fancy like meehanite of course. you might get them completely done - milled, ground, scraped and painted, for $1000-$1500 in volume.

now, were already at a loss vs the chinese original manual machine, which retails for $1200us complete and shipped, but we arent so far off that the possible increase in quality doesnt justify the price, especially in a cnc package worth $6000+ at retail.

OR, you could invest in epoxy granite, try to fit the same price range, and claim superiority over the cheaper competition easily. that avenue requires alot of development and investment however.

for ball screws - good ones, and spindle bearings, youll be looking to japanese though, for both price and quality. there simply arent many use makers doing c5 screws in small sizes for any price near affordable. likewise angular contact bearings and such.

i thnk one could easily make a small/medium sized cnc mill in the US and be profitable to the upper end hobby market. youre now competing with german made wabeco machines rather than siegs. not a bad place to be really, but it is a far smaller market too.

i do not think you could make the larger hobby class machines completely in the US and be viable at the moment, your pricing would be near low end industrial equipment, and the quality and features wouldnt justify it.

[ger21]

A different item, but Delta came out with a new Unisaw table saw that is made in the USA. It's about $3000. The old one was about $1600-$1700. I own an older one, but if I didn't, I could never justify paying double the price, and would end up buying one made elsewhere.

[dertsap]

i do not think you could make the larger hobby class machines completely in the US and be viable at the moment, your pricing would be near low end industrial equipment, and the quality and features wouldnt justify it.

I agree somewhat , Haas has the market wrapped up with affordable machinery above $20,000
But with this being posted in a bench top mill section then I'm not picturing a 1-2 ton machine , I'm guilty of having a Chinese machine , its basically an x2 mini mill , there isn't much to them and it takes pretty basic machining skills to produce it , sure isn't ball screwed or anything technical , to make something similar wouldn't be that hard , its a simple basis of any manual machine , to upgrade them to linear slides and ball screws , and or scale the machine size then there is a definite cost and i think most would be willing to pay for the upgrade if it is a quality built machine , if you look at those types of machines they really are a simple pos build , but they do work ok

there had been a point that i thought about dropping a Haas mill and lathe on my line of credit and have a couple machines for this exact purpose . its a large market that few other than the Chinese have chose to break into , my thought weren't of using castings but to design using solid materials

[John Bear Ross]

I wish Taig would make an X-3 analogue, with a variable-speed 1HP motor and R-8 spindle, especially if it is readily convertible to CNC. I have no basis for the pricing, but I think a decent purchase point would be around $2K, plus shipping.

I've been to their facility in Chandler. Nice folks. But I'm not sure they're set up for another product line.

Best,
JBR

[ihavenofish]

how bout this:

someone recomend me a caster in canada who will do prototype volumes for "small" gray iron or meehanite objects, and i will find out what it truely costs at this point with a prototype design of mine. they must offer some secondary services like milling, aging, etc. if the price is viable heres the plan:

the target is 2 basic machines.
- 5"x16" table, 175lbs
- 8"x30" table, 325lbs

the designs will be cnc specific, however generally based on the weiss/wabeco style modular frame structure as opposed to say, the x3. i think the design is stronger and more suited to heavier cnc use. they are also easier to disasemble, move around with a single person, and service by the nature of the design.

general specs would be
- dovetailed ways with tapered gibs
- swiveling head for horizontal milling
- head removable from the Z saddle for non standard spindle options
- frame will accept common flanged ball screws by default
- facility for one shot oiling systems
- mounting points for way cover options, limit switches, head counter balances, glass scales, tool chagers, power drawbars etc

the head will take a 65mm spindle cartridge on both machines to make it universal for cost, tooling, and accesory streamlining. the common 800w and 1200w high speed spindles will also fit in as an accessory. the stock spindle cartridge would be capable of 10,000rpm minimum, and have shafts with R8, MT2, and BT30 taper options. the shaft will support both thread on or spring drawbars. the spindle will be belth driven with a 2 speed pulley setup.

why am i breaking this down in such a way? i think the frame should be offered as a kit. the kit would be available raw, or milled with the obvious price differences. all mechanical and electrical components, while defined, will be the responsibility of the buyer.

so, as an example, in a milled kit, youd recieve, unpainted :
- base
- column
- cross saddle
- table
- Z saddle
- head
- unassembled spindle cartridge
- unassembled belt drive frame
- gibs, bolts, nuts, and other required small parts.
- dimensioned cad drawings and recomendes hardware specs.

in the raw kit, youd recieve all the same parts, but the casings would not be treated or machined in any way.

from here, individuals can purchase the kit of their skill level and build the machines up with any parts they chose. likewise retrofitters can buy the castings, build turnkey cnc's and sell them with warranty and service giving birth to several "made in NA" cnc mill offerings. we get to cover much of the market ranging from the serious hobyist/builder, to small prototyping and production shops. we also dont stomp badly on the toes of the already successful retrofitting companies or retailers of other small mills because all we offer it parts which they can also use.

one last quirk, the design, once completed and ready for sale will be made public domain. you cant stop a chinese firm from copying the design within a year, so my preference is to reinforce local markets (everywhere) by freely allowing production by anyone with the means. it will be up to the local foundry to prove that they can produce the machine at high quality for a competitive price.

thoughts?

[dertsap]

thoughts?

looks like you've got your work cut out for you

[ihavenofish]

looks like you've got your work cut out for you

not really, most of the works done, i started this project years ago. what i need is one of the bright folks here to recomend me someone who can do top notch iron castings in canada (or alternatively the US as a last resort).

i know of one meehanite certified caster in quebec, but they seem to be geared toward objects the size of a house.

[dertsap]

a company i worked at had all of their product castings done at some place in Saskatchewan , unfortunately I don't recall the companies name , we put out dentist chairs so the casting weren't enormous and they were of pretty good quality , not sure if they did machining but we didn't need it , we did all the machining in house , our max capacity was 40 chairs / week but at $15,000 for the base chair it was pretty good , my point is they didn't require extreme amounts

[dertsap]

http://www.pacmak.com/
it's a local company , not sure how they are but from what i understand is they hire a lot of hacks in their machine shop because they don't like to pay a decent wage , so they are either extremely greedy or they are cheap to get stuff done

[ihavenofish]

http://www.pacmak.com/
it's a local company , not sure how they are but from what i understand is they hire a lot of hacks in their machine shop because they don't like to pay a decent wage , so they are either extremely greedy or they are cheap to get stuff done

well thats a glowing recomendation!

in any case, they do not cast iron, it seems only aluminium and copper.

[Geof]

Here find yourself a Canadian cast iron foundry:

http://www.profilecanada.com/categor...&pos=49&slid=0

I scanned through the list and BC seems to be overly represented.

[ihavenofish]

Here find yourself a Canadian cast iron foundry:

http://www.profilecanada.com/categor...&pos=49&slid=0

I scanned through the list and BC seems to be overly represented.

fricken westerners!

thanks for the link. i found the quebec place, and i was mistaken. there were 2, and one will do small objects including machine tool bases. they are fully automated for production, 50pc an hour up to 125lbs/pc. i wonder if id be too "small fry" for them..... one way to find out i guess.

also, i remembered theres another fellow making a router from castings on here. he mentioned in his thread $3.15 per pound for gray iron casting in the small volumes hes doing which aparently has doubled from his last order. hes made his own patterns, so i dont know if any other charges were involved. at that rate, it would be $1000 for raw castings of the "big" version of my design and about $600 for the small one. i think thats actually viable for the market IF the product is high quality.

we'll be literally triple the retail cost for finished castings than the entire weiss machines, but thats worst case, and even then justified for the features i think.

[Geof]

fricken westerners!...

Ah, but you see us westerners do real things not illusions.

[ihavenofish]

Ah, but you see us westerners do real things not illusions.

real things.. like tree hugging, and granola munching... and.. other.. things...

actually, i lived in PG, my dad lives in vernon