[turbostang]

I've been reading this site now for 2 weeks or so and I have successfully confused myself beyond the point of salvage. lol.

I've pretty much made up my mind that I want the X3 but there are a lot of unanswered questions. I've searched so much and bookmarked so many threads I just don't remember what I bookmarked them for.

I've seen the Syil conversions and they seem pretty nice, but they rule out the DIY part of it for me - not to mention the initial cost etc.

So - the plan seems to be to get the CNCFusion kit with ballscews etc, and from there I am lost.

I've already DL'd the MACH3 software and messed with it quite a bit, so it is becoming more familiar every day. I've also DL'd the GSimple CAD stuff, and it is a bit tough, but it's getting there. (it lacks a few features that I'd really like, like shortcut keys native to windows etc.)

My main questions are in regards to the capility of the machine and also some of the equipment I want to get.

It seems the majority uses 200-400 oz. stepper motors, but my question is what's the difference in steppers vs. servos? pros vs. cons?

Next, What controller board is best suited? I see tons of different ones it seems like, and honestly I don't know what to look for. Does the controller board control the coolant toggle? or can it? preffered brands? pros vs. cons?

Do most of the controllers, if any, have the provisions for the limit switches?

...and last (for now) - power supplies. What specifics do I need to look for?

What's the easiest way to speed up the motor? simply convert it to belt drive?

I'd really rather overbuild than "get by"... I hate to sound so noobish, but this place is just simply too much information!

FWIW - I will be milling small parts of aluminum, some mild steel etc.

Ah.. I remembered one more thing - I've never seen any mention of accuracy on finished parts. How good is it? Are they accurate enough to do Helical interpolation?

Sorry for the book, and thanks for the help guys!

[in2steam]

There are alot questions to answer, you should #1 move the question to the newly formed subforum, #2 ask fewer questions in one post, #3 you are in for more research, at this point it only sounds like you know that you want to cnc not what parts you are going to buy. I would suggest you do a search on all you questions before you repost. Also don't bother with the servo vs stepper question you will get nowhere as the sides are both equally good, it boils down to how much money you want to spend.

chris

[turbostang]

No answers on any of that? Anyone else?

I figured as much on the stepper vs. servo, but what about the controller boards etc?

edit - I was trying to keep it all in one thread as opposed to 30 different threads.

[edferg]

I've gone the DIY route sorta - I bought a CNC ready mill and wired my own controller box using Gecko drives. Bought steppers and controller enclosure off ebay, etc.

My formula for DIY is: take the cost you estimate and multiply by 1.5. Take the time you estimate and multiply by 3.

When I was all done and added up my true costs, I was very close to the cost of a turn-key system. What messes up an initial cost estimate is all the small stuff that really adds up, and all the small stuff you buy, then you don't use because you figured out a better way later.

Since you're in the research phase, add up all the components you'll need (not just the big stuff, but every nut & bolt, every length of wire, every connector, every shipping charge) and compare to the turn-key Sybil X3. My guess is you'll pay now or you'll pay the same over time by building it yourself.

If you decide to DIY my advice is to do a lot of research and make sure you are purchasing the right components the first time. Also consider if you miswire something you could blow a stepper driver - there goes the savings.

If you decide making parts is your first priority, then consider a turn-key solution, even if it means taking out a loan.

I use my mill in a home-based business and it has paid for itself many times over. Soon I will need a second, larger CNC mill. Even though I could piece together a second system, it doesn't make economical sense for me.

I realize this is a DIY forum. It really comes down to your priorities and abilities.

Ed

[turbostang]

Ed- Thanks for the informative response. I kinda figured on the 1.5 X estimated cost and the 3 x estimated time - That seems how all of my projects go, lol.

I like the idea of the X3, but it may prove to be too small for my applications. The parts are actually small, but small production runs may take its toll on the little guy.

I've been considering a 6X20 as well, but it appears that you loose a bit of spindle clearance over the X3's. Not that it's a big concern - a simple column spacer would take care of that, but most of my parts there shouldn't be any where near a height concern.

The only problem with the 6X20's is that I have not seen a "kit" to convert them like I've seen for the X3's. I may have missed it though, and specifically I speak of the Grizzly G3102.

What software etc do you use? Does your machine produce fair accuracy?

[alexccmeister]

Hi Turbo,

Have you ever thought about getting the X2 mill and buying the cncbridges x-y table plus Z axis support for cnc conversion? I did that but now waiting for the mill and x-y table to arrive. But the down side is that the table will take long to arrive as there is a backlog of orders. Anyway just a thought. The table has a large envelope to work on. Checkout their website at cncbridges.com for details.

Mach3 is a popular and easy software to use once you get a hang of it. As for accuracy, I think 0.001" sort of figure would be good. Just my 2 cents.

Alex

[turbostang]

Hey Alex,

Thanks for the ideas, I went and checked out the cncbridges site again - and I noticed that they only show ACME thread lead screws. My concern is wear and tear over time, and mainly accuracy. I plan on making a few thread-milled parts and I'd hate to spend a bunch of time chasing accuracy problems.
I did email them about ball screw upgrades, I'll report back as soon as I get an answer.

-Brooks

[nagjames]

CNC Bridges - stay away from them!!! (for now)

Read his first post 2006-09-21
"We have 8 of these available for end of October delivery."
But he didn't deliver any so far. I'm not saying he is a scam artist His table looks great that's why I read the entire 280 something threads. But he cannot deliver.
Once he sets the price and promises that he is going to ship in a few days. Then he redesign some parts which sets him back again.
I was hooked on it too but I'm more cautious. I like to read user reviews and feedback on the product I buy.
CNC Bridges will be on my watch list again if they'll have a product.

James

[turbostang]

CNC Bridges - stay away from them!!! (for now)

Read his first post 2006-09-21
"We have 8 of these available for end of October delivery."
But he didn't deliver any so far. I'm not saying he is a scam artist His table looks great that's why I read the entire 280 something threads. But he cannot deliver.
Once he sets the price and promises that he is going to ship in a few days. Then he redesign some parts which sets him back again.
I was hooked on it too but I'm more cautious. I like to read user reviews and feedback on the product I buy.
CNC Bridges will be on my watch list again if they'll have a product.

James

I wondered about that myself, the more I read, the more I research, the bigger the machine I want to buy gets. :wee:

[edferg]

I've read through the CNC Bridges thread - he sounds like a sincere guy. However, I would never buy something like that until he has in fact delivered product and I've had a chance to read several reviews from owners. Even the established mill builders and modifiers continue to tweak their designs years later - I don't want the first production run of anything

Back to the questions - I use TurboCNC with my steppers and Gecko drives. The price is right and it works very well. Its an inexpensive way to get your mill going. Later you can decide ( as I will ) to move up to something like Mach3 ( or whatever Art is working on to replace Mach3).

Ed

[edferg]

Turbo - did you say "production runs"? Can we assume you have, or will be starting a business?

If so, that changes your whole approach.

For example, last year I purchased a used OmniTurn CNC lathe for $8,000. I got to depreciate (write off) the full cost of the lathe that year on tax schedule 179. Lets say I'm in the 25% tax bracket - the lathe effectively cost me $6,000.

Now, lets say I purchased a manual lathe for $4,000 and spent $2,000 on parts plus 2 months converting it to CNC. The IRS won't let me deduct my time, so that machine would have cost me $4,500, for a savings of $1,500. But wait - I would not have nearly the quality of machine, and in the two months time I would have spent designing, ordering parts, converting to CNC & testing, I was able to produce parts and generate income. Much, much more than enough to make up for $1,500 in DIY savings.

If you have a business, do a financial evaluation as well as a technical evaluation. Even if you have to take a loan to get the machine you need, you are better off. The tax savings will pay for several months of payments. Your time is better spent making parts and generating income than modifying a machine. If the math proves otherwise then rethink your business plan.

Ed

[turbostang]

Turbo - did you say "production runs"? Can we assume you have, or will be starting a business?

If so, that changes your whole approach.

For example, last year I purchased a used OmniTurn CNC lathe for $8,000. I got to depreciate (write off) the full cost of the lathe that year on tax schedule 179. Lets say I'm in the 25% tax bracket - the lathe effectively cost me $6,000.

Now, lets say I purchased a manual lathe for $4,000 and spent $2,000 on parts plus 2 months converting it to CNC. The IRS won't let me deduct my time, so that machine would have cost me $4,500, for a savings of $1,500. But wait - I would not have nearly the quality of machine, and in the two months time I would have spent designing, ordering parts, converting to CNC & testing, I was able to produce parts and generate income. Much, much more than enough to make up for $1,500 in DIY savings.

If you have a business, do a financial evaluation as well as a technical evaluation. Even if you have to take a loan to get the machine you need, you are better off. The tax savings will pay for several months of payments. Your time is better spent making parts and generating income than modifying a machine. If the math proves otherwise then rethink your business plan.

Ed

Yeah, production runs - small ones at that. I don't have a business persay - but I do a lot of work "on the side" making turbo kits for racecars. This machine will go hand in hand with that "side work". Right now I don't have any commercial accounts and I pay FULL retail on parts, parts that I can make! The parts I will make at first are very simple in shape, don't really require ANY skill to make and really don't have to be that accurate. (they get welded all over, and covered anyways). Sooo, I can still make the parts manually for now if needed. Also, I don't have the capital needed to buy a complete ready to run machine just yet. I want to try to sway my business away from the fabbing part and move towards peddling parts - which will take time.
Eventually, I may turn it into a full time business - but it won't be for a few years. I have just recently landed an excellent job in I.T. that pays well - and it's very hard to leave that security behind. Not to mention we are in the process of buying a new house (with land in the back for my shop ), so moving a complete CNC machine would be a PITA. Although, I may call on some of those favors I am owed and make it a mill moving party at my place

[edferg]

Sounds like you're in that zone where you have one foot in as a hobbyist and one foot in as a potential small business. My business was "bootstrapped" from a couple of machines in my garage.

Even if you're selling a product on "the side" you want to think in terms of return on investment. If you maintain the mindset of a hobbyist, there is nothing wrong with that. Just settle on the fact that hobbies are expensive and the return on investment is fun and satisfaction and a little $$ for side jobs.

If you want to start a business, keep your initial investment as low as possible until you know you have an ongoing demand for your product. For that reason you may want to consider outsourcing your parts. That approach may appear to reduce profit margin, but you have to look at the cost of a mill and the break-even point in units sold to pay for it. When your volume justifies buying a machine then do so. Again, play with various scenarios on a spreadsheet, keeping in mind tax benefits, return on investment, and risk.

Finally, I had a "secure" job in IT until they started outsourcing programming to India. I'm glad I had my part time business started before then. I collected unemployment for 6 months while ramping it up to a full time business.

Ed

[turbostang]

Sounds like you're in that zone where you have one foot in as a hobbyist and one foot in as a potential small business. My business was "bootstrapped" from a couple of machines in my garage.

Even if you're selling a product on "the side" you want to think in terms of return on investment. If you maintain the mindset of a hobbyist, there is nothing wrong with that. Just settle on the fact that hobbies are expensive and the return on investment is fun and satisfaction and a little $$ for side jobs.

If you want to start a business, keep your initial investment as low as possible until you know you have an ongoing demand for your product. For that reason you may want to consider outsourcing your parts. That approach may appear to reduce profit margin, but you have to look at the cost of a mill and the break-even point in units sold to pay for it. When your volume justifies buying a machine then do so. Again, play with various scenarios on a spreadsheet, keeping in mind tax benefits, return on investment, and risk.

Finally, I had a "secure" job in IT until they started outsourcing programming to India. I'm glad I had my part time business started before then. I collected unemployment for 6 months while ramping it up to a full time business.

Ed

I tried to keep it at the hobby level, but people keep coming to me for more and more work - for almost 3 years now. If the machine breaks even, or even worse loses a few bucks, that's ok to me too - it's no different than having to buy retail. For now, it's just the satisfaction of making my own parts, if that makes any sense.
My wife's a CNC programmer of 13 years at a major player in the aerospace industry - so the programming part of it should be quite ok. I guess all in all, I want to be able to say "I have a CNC machine in my garage"

[edferg]

"I want to be able to say "I have a CNC machine in my garage"

Sometimes I'm so focused on business I forget what I have in the garage.

A while back I needed a little round spacer for something I was fixing in the house. My first reaction was, "I need to go to the hardware store and find something that will work". Then it hit me - I have a small lathe in the garage! Twenty minutes later I had my part.

Ed

[turbostang]

I do the same thing on a different scale. (with welding stuff). Now my work has taken a turn for a much more custom side of things and I need a mill and a lathe. (Your spacer comment reminded me of it).

Over the years in this business, There is no telling how much time a mill and lathe would have saved me. I've gone to the machine shop who knows how many times because I didn't have either of these tools. grrrrr.

My wife just doesn't see it like that though, she only sees one more thing in the garage that she already doesn't get to park in.

In retrospect though, I think I am going to get the G3616 from Grizzly

[alexccmeister]

Hi Turbo,

If you need the machine fast, I don't think cncbridges table will be for you at this moment. And you will probably have a hard time getting an answer for now as the guy is busy working on his table to send out. But to be fair he is a very nice person to deal with. Just the backlog of orders keeping him extra busy.

But acme leadscrew is pretty much what he is offering. I remember him mentioning ballscrew will add more cost beyond what customer will want to pay.

Good luck with your decision.

[turbostang]

Since my last post I had sent him an inquiry asking about ballscrew options etc. When I questioned durability and wear and tear on the ACME's he replied with :

We are seeing 80ipm with 276ozin Nema 23's. .000 to .002 backlash on X & Y. Low maintenance and easy to adjust.

He seemed sincere in his reply and he did mention he was way behind because of changes to the parts etc..

I am still relatively sure I am going for a bigger mill anyways, I'm deathly afraid of getting something undersized and as my business grows faster and faster I'll just wear it out.

[dlenox]

turbostang,

I have a Grizzly 3616, for about 1 yr now. Have not done anything very difficult on it, simple stuff. But am pretty pleased so far.

Only pain is changing the spindle speed, manually remove cover and change belt on pulleys. Often I compromise on the speed setting.

I see on another thread that you got the 3617 and doing conversion on it. I will be watching as I am interested in doing same here.

Dan L

I do the same thing on a different scale. (with welding stuff). Now my work has taken a turn for a much more custom side of things and I need a mill and a lathe. (Your spacer comment reminded me of it).

Over the years in this business, There is no telling how much time a mill and lathe would have saved me. I've gone to the machine shop who knows how many times because I didn't have either of these tools. grrrrr.

My wife just doesn't see it like that though, she only sees one more thing in the garage that she already doesn't get to park in.

In retrospect though, I think I am going to get the G3616 from Grizzly

[turbostang]

turbostang,

I have a Grizzly 3616, for about 1 yr now. Have not done anything very difficult on it, simple stuff. But am pretty pleased so far.

Only pain is changing the spindle speed, manually remove cover and change belt on pulleys. Often I compromise on the speed setting.

I see on another thread that you got the 3617 and doing conversion on it. I will be watching as I am interested in doing same here.

Dan L

I bought the Grizzly and ended up sending it back. The ways almost instantly started galding. The spindle was noisier than it should have been and it got REALLY hot. Grizzly was great, the took it back with no problems and gave me a full refund.

I ended up getting a bridgeport Series I with Centroid controls - this thing ROCKS!