[hardrocker]

I thought I seen a thread on rebuilds but can't seem to find it again. Anyway, I posted more a more specific description of the task to the general machining forum as we might be still looking at Haas too (if they had re-builds, probably would be the choice as we get great service from them on our toolroom VMC), but there looks to be a lot of value in the Fadal remanufactured machines [sorry if this is a slight cross-post].

Like new, the salesman said "current controls, motors, yada, yada, six month warrenty, yada, yada"

Anything I'm missing or being mislead?

Any chance the factory would let me do a final run off before it ships, so I can have it set up for the specific application? Better yet, will they install custom aftermarket options? Will they put in a Fanuc control [I may be wrong, but think parts would be a bit easier; programming idiosyncracies should be closer to the HAAS too, perhaps] in the rebuilds? (the salesman didn't seem to know much about the last few questions)

Thanks!

[ltmquik]

I know in the past if one ordered a reman machine from Fadal they basically get which ever machine is ready at the time. The controls may or may not be new as well with motors etc. I have been in the Fadal reman department and was impressed with the way Fadal strips the machine down to the base casting and then rebuilds the machines. I have one that was shipped with a used control (e-stop button had arrows completely worn off) and rusty door latches on all the cabinets. The z-axis ball screw went out after about a year. Since then I have not had any problems. I have seen remans with newer controls and new cabinets. Its just the luck of the draw. I am not sure how MAG is running the reman department now though. I would just get a new machine to guarantee getting what you want. I also would want the one (1) year warranty with their track record lately.

[hardrocker]

Thanks! For the "out of the box" reliability we want, maybe new is better; it seems lemons crop up everywhere though.

I think the only way I'll be somewhat confident about getting what we need on this machine is having a run-off before it ships. We're dealing fairly low forces in X&Y, not too bad in Z, nothing sub-mil on accuracy, but we want very good reliability and instanious service [thus FADAL and HAAS in our area] on a mediocre budget - which is slighty ill defined, but the powers that be aren't writing any blank checks!

It almost looks like I have a better chance with the reman than new for a pre-shipping run-off [especially if I want some oddball upgrades], but I need to talk with our dealer again. On a slight tangent, I talked with Neal at the reman center, and was quite well impressed.

Hey, where's the rest of the loyal [or dissatisfied as well] Fadal guys; maybe I should have posted in the HAAS forum! :stickpoke

[hardrocker]

BTW, I did a new search and found the threads I was looking for, but would still like any insight out there! Thanks!

[hardrocker]

Figured it's time to update everyone here:

We did go with the reman Fadal as the dealer had one in stock (and one on order); our budget wasn't moving and new machines in either Haas or Fadal weren't available in less than 6-8 weeks [it'd been a 30X16 at that to make budget].

Now where it get's a bit crazy:
They were going to sell us the 32MP with 30HP for no extra cost; ready for immediate delivery. They moved it to the showroom and powered it up so we could come see it; I was very impressed. Anything that would have concerned me was new - nothing showing any wear. With close scrutiny, I did find a tiny (maybe 1/8X1/8) drill mark left on the table [else looked new], and the chiller was likely used, but I walked right by the machine first thinking it was new. The screw adjustment sheet and ballbar looked great too, probably better than many new machines of most brands!

However, another customer seen it when they moved it to the showroom, so though we had first chance, we had to settle for a different machine (concurently on order) to get enough time to get the paperwork around on our end.

The extra two week leadtime wasn't optimal but workable and delivery was as quoted (though the through spindle pump shipped separate and I haven't seen it yet - tommorrow I think). This one only has the 22.5HP (true 15HP motor?), and just the MP; both downgrades were fine for the application, and we got $2K discount, 1year warranty, and intial onsite calibration followed by an 11th month recalibration to insure it's holding up [the actual options exchanged, would have still been a much better value, but we didn't need them]. On the down side, the factory calibration reports were fine but not as impressive as the other machine. Also, I never thought to insist on a floppy drive (it wasn't quoted separt from the MP32 package, [the ethernet would have been nice too], on the other one), but we'll likely make a 232 cable anyway.

This machine looks as good or better than the other one, but after we got it on the floor and started playing with it, a couple shipping issues showed up (door latch cracked as well as a screen protector smudge and small cracks on the house where the door rods cross through), the trucker noted that his trailer was hit at a truck stop, but we didn't see the damage until install - the dealer assured me these issues will be taken care of. Where I have a bit of concern: what if it had a really good jolt, bounced the table around and chipped turquite or something; but that's perhaps pretty paranoid.

The tool changes and G0s are a bit slow, but nothing unexpected. Our toolroom guys have a Haas and jest that their pushbutton (instead of on-screen) menus are nicer, but production won't use much more than "start" and occasional tool offsets.

All in all, I'm thinking it will be a good machine for the task.

[Scott_bob]

hardrocker,

Why did you not get the test cut done on your selected machine?
Why would your "powers that be" not spend a little more on a better machine, that will not break down like your old Fadal will?
Why would they feel comfortable buying a CNC product that performs well when it needs service, instead of having a machine that does not break down, but outperforms the Fadal both in accuracy and performance?
If getting quick service out weighs the benefit of accuracy and performance, what are you guys selling anyway?

Good luck,

[carbidecraters]

A bunch of questions

1. If a oring goes out on coolant thru does it cause the spindle bearings to fail (Like the Matsurra?)
2. Did they ever have a coolant thru and 15000rpm or 12000rpm?
3. What pressure is the stock Fadal coolant thru runing at?
4. In what years did they offer the 12000 or 15000rpm spindle?
5. What was the first year they offered the spindle thru coolant?

[carbidecraters]

oops

[hardrocker]

hardrocker,

Why did you not get the test cut done on your selected machine?
Why would your "powers that be" not spend a little more on a better machine, that will not break down like your old Fadal will?
Why would they feel comfortable buying a CNC product that performs well when it needs service, instead of having a machine that does not break down, but outperforms the Fadal both in accuracy and performance?
If getting quick service out weighs the benefit of accuracy and performance, what are you guys selling anyway?

Good luck,

Ahhh, great questions Scott_bob.......

Actually, the Fadal vendor was the only "local" dealer willing to run a test cut [or for that matter power up anything but brand new machines already on their showroom], so they did gain some points there. They had just installed an identical [actually 15HP] machine near us, and arranged for me to bring in a dozen parts for test cutting; when they offered the 30HP to us they had it powered up 3days after I expressed interest (I didn't do any cutting there as planned [I had a nice chuck of 4140prehard and a big insert cutter in the trunk, as well as the products driving the project]; as I realized the morning I drove out that we'd never get the signatures here with-in the 24hours I needed, so I wasn't going to dirty it for another customer). As far as the one now sitting here, it came directly from Fadal, and after viewing the previous two, I couldn't justify a trip to California

As far as a better machine? Well that's two-fold, actually three if I address the last point first. We do very little machining; pressing, forming, welding, brazing ect. comprise the products, but a new product needed a very deep hole drilled in several places [with tool changes and coolant requirements: out of the league of high-speed drilling machines, but toleranced very easy for even a cheap VMC].

Now with that in mind, our management budgeted the project thinking that Haas was the "Cadillac" of machining centers, and that we may even be able to do it with a drilling machine (first glance at the prints, I even thought the latter). Where it gets more interesting is the collective analysis paralysis around here: pick at details for weeks on end, then scramble and/or pay expediting charges to have the same thing [or lesser!] at the same time [or latter] than originally planned.

Beyond the parts we ran with the dealer, we don't even have the R&D done for this process......so just the fact I now actually have a machine sitting here, the Fadal pretty much does feel like a Cadillac!

[hardrocker]

Should answer the obvious question:

We haven't done any R&D in our toolroom's Hass because it doesn't have through spindle coolant. Then again, as of right now, neither does the Fadal!

[hardrocker]

Coolant pallet arrived! Will be installed starting Thur afternoon, maybe finishing on Friday.

Then we'll see if that 22HP has any torque! On the 15HP machine we [all machines were recently built or remanned 4020s] ran the trial, I don't recall the meter even topping 50% in the cut; should be a peice of cake with 50% more. Of course, long term we'll see how the spindle bearings and coolant union like 10Krpm hole after hole after hole........

[billystein]

if you would to see another for rebuilt fadals then call m+j 818-631-4431.
i bought a fadal last year for a decent price and even got a 1 year warranty.
miguel told me he had 17 fadals in his back yard.


just a thought

[Scott_bob]

Coolant thru the Tool is the best...

One option:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...00264&PMT4NO=0
(If you don't have the Coolant thru option)

We just Plumbed in a Coolant Fitting on the top of the cabinette.
When we wanted Coolant thru, we attached a short hose to this Tool Holder, and M08 turned on this Fitting...

Works ok, even with the low pressure, low volume stock Fadal pump...
Way better than try to just flood from the outside.

[hardrocker]

Excellent! I didn't even realize MSC stocked these. A while back Kendco quoted me about something like $1,000 [for a collet style though IIRC, didn't see that one on MSC], and they said that it wouldn't last very long; even if that was the case, to get some prototyping done, I think it would have been fine.

We maybe should order one of those adaptors for the toolroom anyway, so the Fadal doesn't get loaded with more and more prototype stuff. Of course, with the particular product slated for the Fadal, ThruCoolant was pretty much necessary - not just very, very nice.

[hardrocker]

Scott_bob,

After my verbose reply to your earlier questions, I'm curious of what someone outside of this plant thinks of the course this project played out [I was told to spec out the equiment way back in February!]. I've seen both extremes at other places, but it sure seems like we cut our options on this project too many times [not that I think the budget would have expanded outside of Haas or Fadal anyway].

Actually, on the maintenance note though, every shop I know of in 100mi any direction of here is using exclusively or has at least one Fadal [the same rep handles Kitamura and services everything, but not many around here putting out the cash for high end machines]. So, not speaking for or against the Fadals reliability, I suspect this area should have good service representation for a long time.

[Scott_bob]

hardrocker,

Well as you might guess I am not very optimistic about Fadal Engineering survival. Not with the way they run their buisness. But I have thought that same thing about Microsoft. Actually these two companies have similar faults. Both rely on their popularity rather than on quality or performance.
Low cost at the expense of performance.
Service availability at the expense of durability.
Too many American companies settle for designed obsolecense. You know that widget that was actually designed to break, so you'd come back and buy some service that you're so happy about getting so quickly. And for years Fadal has offered a control that only increased the frequency of breakdowns...

I would not be happy with a Fadal CNC with one of their controls on it. In my opinion you'll be paying for service on your CNC that will be much higher than the additional cost of a better machine that is more accurate and reliable. It's the same idea with race cars. Buy a cheaply made car (you pick) or a quality made car (you pick). At the finish line who is going to win. 2nd place is the 1st loser...

[hardrocker]

Buy a cheaply made car (you pick) or a quality made car (you pick). At the finish line who is going to win. 2nd place is the 1st loser...

Pretty good analogy! It's a good thing we're not in a race here; however, repairs, not to mention downtime, sure can eat up inital savings real quick. Even the best names in anything still make an occasional lemon, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to pay for better odds. To make that analogy complete, I drive a Chevy, and my wife a Ford; no Lexus in my yard, so I perhaps can't be expecting the company to consider value in intial investment.

I'm not as pessimistic about Fadal disappearing, but I am curious how long they'll play out the old control. I actually asked the dealer, and it sounded like they were burned bad enough by the 104 fiasco that Fadal will likely just keep offering Fanac etc. along with the old MP.

BTW, my previous post addressed Scott_bob, but I actually meant for anyone to find humor at our expense i.e. analysis paralysis leading to grabbing the first available machine. Of course, I'd loved a "heavy duty" machine, but the Fadal may well be the right tool for the job. However, the fact I could have had one running 3 weeks earlier with more HP, onboard CAM, and a preshipping cutting tests [I wonder if they'd let me try some parts in the Kitamura at the same time for the fun of it?!] still perplexes me.

[DareBee]

The race car analogy reminds me of a guy I know.
He always says (CHEAP, FAST, RELIABLE - Pick two)

[ltmquik]

I do not think that Microsoft is a good comparison. There are not many options other than Linux or MAC for OS. I don't think Linux has any performance or reliability over MS.

Fadals problems started occuring when they were bought out by G&L and then again by MAG Corp. Each time, each of the parties bring their own management into the picture. Each time there is total chaos because they all want to change to suit themselves. Fadal has a long way to go to get to where they were before G&L.

[Scott_bob]

Itmquik,

From talking with virtually all the software programmers I talk to...
"If you" were a software programmer, you might have a different opinion.

Microsoft does not care to address the significant problems with their product, they just patch it up, add another layer of complexity to the OS, call it something new and sell it to the poor gullible bums (like me) who want the latest OS to stay competative in the job market.
That is why Microsoft OS is known as bloatware...
Intel and AMD and others, have down a great job with hardware. Do you think the OS has kept up with hardware? I don't think so. By the way MAC or Linux both are supperior OS to Microsoft. And you are wrong about Linux, it is more reliable and faster than Microsoft.

2ndly, both Fadal's legacy controls were developed before any ownership changes. How exactly is that G&L or Mag Corp's fault?