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spcutler Request for quote and advice... 03-02-2010, 12:56 AM
DareBee Yes Have you got $1000 for... 03-02-2010, 01:58 PM
Jim Estes How deep is the rectangular... 03-02-2010, 03:37 PM
mactec54 Hi spcutler You can do... 03-02-2010, 03:49 PM
universalfab This is definately sound like... 03-02-2010, 11:30 PM
Dualkit The guy said he had a LOW... 03-03-2010, 12:04 AM
universalfab Thats a good way to look at... 03-03-2010, 03:59 AM
Tormachmaster Post a picture. This is the... 03-03-2010, 12:44 AM
spcutler Thanks all for the advice so... 03-03-2010, 12:10 PM
irrational Hey Scott, are you doing... 03-03-2010, 03:22 PM
spcutler Oh my, you've spoiled my... 03-04-2010, 12:37 AM
universalfab That is going to cost you... 03-04-2010, 04:52 AM
DareBee Funny guy. A machine that... 03-04-2010, 06:16 PM
spcutler Didn't I specify that I would... 03-05-2010, 01:32 AM
mactec54 spcutler Don't take to... 03-05-2010, 02:34 AM
spcutler Thanks, Mactec. The grooves... 03-06-2010, 01:25 PM
SBC Cycle You know the first thing I... 03-11-2010, 06:58 PM
zephyr9900 So you need a clueless (or... 03-12-2010, 12:54 AM
universalfab Oh it's "just" I like how... 03-12-2010, 09:59 PM
DareBee Yup Spent 5 hours... 03-11-2010, 10:39 PM
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8

    Request for quote and advice on smallish part

    Hello--
    I'm looking to have a part machined out of steel (probably 8620). Starting material will probably be 2" diameter rod, 8" long. Final product will look something like a Christmas tree (a cone on a cylinder), but with a rectangular spiral groove on the conical part.

    I have a pretty low budget and I don't quite know where to start. A local place offers design classes, and I'd bet I can design the part myself, but I have nowhere to get it machined. I'm guessing it'll need a 5-axis machine but I don't really know that for certain. If I manage to produce a design in Solidworks, can I expect to hand the file off to someone and get it machined without too much extra effort on my part?

    At this point I'm pretty much just exploring options, so if others have alternative suggestions (lost wax casting or something?) I'd like to hear those as well. I don't need super-high dimensional tolerance or surface quality; cost is the main criterion. Thanks for any help!

    - Scott

  2. #2
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    Jan 2004
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    If I manage to produce a design in Solidworks, can I expect to hand the file off to someone and get it machined without too much extra effort on my part?
    Yes

    Have you got $1000 for your christmas tree?
    www.integratedmechanical.ca

  3. #3
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    Feb 2005
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    224
    How deep is the rectangular spiral groove? I think this could probably be done on a 4-axis machine. Just involves rotating the cone as the groove is cut. You would get a slight radius in the bottom of the groove that would result from the cutter traveling down the angle of the cone.

  4. #4
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    Jan 2005
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    Hi spcutler

    You can do this part on a manual 2 axes lathe with a taper attachment, we used to make a part like this for wood splitters
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Sep 2009
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    313
    This is definately sound like a turning job. Can you post a picture or your part?

  6. #6
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    Jan 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by universalfab View Post
    This is definately sound like a turning job. Can you post a picture or your part?
    The guy said he had a LOW BUDGET, if you continue to interact with these people I suggest you go get your blood pressure checked. It seems you are going out of your way to find ways to stress yourself out.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    The guy said he had a LOW BUDGET, if you continue to interact with these people I suggest you go get your blood pressure checked. It seems you are going out of your way to find ways to stress yourself out.
    Thats a good way to look at things and your probabley right.

  8. #8
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    328
    Post a picture. This is the only way you can get any type of quote on this part.

  9. #9
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    Feb 2006
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    Thanks all for the advice so far. I haven't had time to draft a picture yet (the design is mostly in my head at this point), hopefully in the next day or two I can put something together.

    All I have at the moment is this:
    http://www.scottcutler.net/images/spiralconefield.png

    The left of the image is the center axis (ignore the curvy gray lines; those are magnetic field lines). The part outline is in blue. Note though that the grooves are not circular; they form a spiral.

    These proportions aren't final, either, but hopefully it conveys the gist of the design. I'll post a full drawing later. This is for a hobby project (hence the budget constraints) so I have no problem with posting this stuff publicly.

    - Scott

  10. #10
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    Jan 2010
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    Hey Scott, are you doing something with Ferromagnetic Liquid?
    Kinda like this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDnrFgd7yfo&feature=fvw"]YouTube- Amazing Magnetic Art Sculpture!![/ame] ?

    -IM

  11. #11
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    Feb 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by irrational View Post
    Hey Scott, are you doing something with Ferromagnetic Liquid?
    Oh my, you've spoiled my surprise ! You deductive skills are excellent, as that is exactly my intent. The spiral cone shape turns out to be a "perfect" shape for making ferrofluid do neat things due to the way it directs and concentrates the magnetic field.

    Well, now that the "secret" is out, to anyone that's interested, your video shows the basic shape that I'm shooting for. Below the surface of the fluid is an additional cylinder that the electromagnet is wound around, but the complicated portion is visible.

    Another variable is that I'm not dead-set on a size--if it turns out that the cost is too high for the size I want, I maybe be willing to go with something smaller, such as 1" or 1.5" in diameter.

    By the way, here is a vid of my own experiments with the stuff (much less nifty than your vid, but neat in a scientific way):
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaUnubDdouc"]YouTube- Ferrofluid demonstration[/ame]

    -Scott

  12. #12
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    Sep 2009
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    That is going to cost you more then a low budget.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by universalfab View Post
    That is going to cost you more then a low budget.
    Out of curiosity, where do the bulk of the costs from? I can't imagine that this part would take even close to an hour on an automated machine. By my math, a $100k machine amortized over 5 years is something like $15 an hour. Tool wear costs can't be too much on a part like this. Machinist costs are what--less than $50 an hour, I'd suppose? I guess I don't see why a relatively simple (for a CNC machine) part like this can't be done for something on the order of $100-150 instead of $1000 if the design is done.

    Okay, maybe my cost estimates are way off since I literally know nothing about the industry. Maybe things aren't set up to do one-off items relatively cheaply. That sounds like a market opportunity to me, but maybe the demand isn't there.

    - Scott

  14. #14
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    Jan 2004
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    Funny guy.
    A machine that programs and sets itself from a mental image.
    What a great idea.



    What about heat, electricity, rent, taxes, computer, administration(quotting & billing at minimum), cutting fluid, workholding fixtures, toolholders, money to replace or repair the machine, tooling, CAD and CAM software, etc, etc, .... and most importantly some profit to stay in business with (and feed the kids).


    You want 1000pcs made from C12L14 - how about $35 each.
    www.integratedmechanical.ca

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DareBee View Post
    Funny guy.
    A machine that programs and sets itself from a mental image.
    What a great idea.
    Didn't I specify that I would produce a design in Solidworks (or heck, whichever package is requested)? I have options available here. Though I don't know how that is ultimately translated into CNC instructions.

    You want 1000pcs made from C12L14 - how about $35 each.
    In other words, this is a good approximation of the cost of electricity, machine wear, and all the other things aside from fixed overhead, right? I've encountered other industries (such as PCB manufacturing) where one-off parts can be done for a small multiple (say, 3-5x) of the raw cost as long as the design work and such is done upfront. If machining is different, I can accept that, but I still find it curious.

    Another thing is--and perhaps this is an invalid assumption of mine--I guessed that there are people here looking for side work and have access to machines (either self owned or from (with permission) their employer). Presumably these people have little to no overhead. I occasionally do contract programming outside of my day job and I'm able to charge way less than any professional house (still with a healthy profit).

    Anyway, I certainly didn't mean to get anyone riled up, and I apologize if I did. I just like to understand thing when reality is out of line with my expectations.

    - Scott

  16. #16
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    Jan 2005
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    spcutler

    Don't take to much notice of these guys hacking on you, they do it to everyone,Your part is very easy to make How deep & how wide do the grooves have to be & what shape can the grooves be square bottom round bottom
    Mactec54

  17. #17
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    Feb 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    spcutler

    Don't take to much notice of these guys hacking on you, they do it to everyone,Your part is very easy to make How deep & how wide do the grooves have to be & what shape can the grooves be square bottom round bottom
    Thanks, Mactec. The grooves will likely be 3/8" across, and 1/4" deep. I initially thought that square bottoms would be best, but I don't think it actually matters for my purposes. Round bottoms would be fine, but they'd need to be a bit deeper; say 3/8".

    - Scott

  18. #18
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    Apr 2008
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    1577
    You know the first thing I always say when someone asks me to do a project like this - You got a buddy who might want one?

    Concerning a CNC, the wide majority of the cost is in the first piece. Programming, tool setting, chuck/vise setup, etc. On many of the parts I make, the second piece is literally a fraction of the cost.

  19. #19
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    Feb 2006
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    1051
    Quote Originally Posted by SBC Cycle
    You got a buddy who might want one? ... On many of the parts I make, the second piece is literally a fraction of the cost.
    So you need a clueless (or well-heeled) buddy to buy the first one.

    But seriously, the "just a hobby" pain tolerance level seems to be about $25/hour, at least for custom model railroading work (modification, assembly, painting etc.)
    Quote Originally Posted by DareBee
    Spent 5 hours yesterday to run two 4 minute cycles
    And the 5 hours is what you can't charge for "just a hobby" jobs... If that is not the case, please let me know how!

    Randy

  20. #20
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    Sep 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephyr9900 View Post
    So you need a clueless (or well-heeled) buddy to buy the first one.

    But seriously, the "just a hobby" pain tolerance level seems to be about $25/hour, at least for custom model railroading work (modification, assembly, painting etc.)

    And the 5 hours is what you can't charge for "just a hobby" jobs... If that is not the case, please let me know how!

    Randy
    Oh it's "just" I like how people use that abnocious word, "it's just 5 hours or free labour". No way guy that all goes into account, if I have to spend 5 hours setting up to machine your obviously fairly complicated part to take 5 hours of set up then yeah your going to pay buy my hourly in shop rate. Being that it's for a individual instead of company and you can attach hobby to it makes no difference, it's still time and money, and money is what it's all about. Does that make sense to you? Or do I have to draw out the economics of it on a chalkboard for you? This "RFQ" and everyone looking to have these suppossed jobs is just getting worse and worse. If you want to play you gotta pay. "The leaches have come to suck me dry!!" YOU PEOPLE ARE WORSE THEN THE GOVERNMENT.

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