[JMcDonald]

I am looking for the pretty much largest mill I can find for ~1000 or so. If it is a really sweet deal I might save a little longer and buy that. So far I have been looking at the X3 and RF45 clones (X3 is in my budget, and I am trying to decide how worth-the-wait the RF45 would be over the X3). I am looking for something that I could use manually for a while (namely to make the parts for a CNC conversion, and also maybe additional things like mill accessories and what not). I have a full Xylotex 4-axis CNC kit with 425oz-in motors, but I am not in too much of a hurry to make use of it. I am tired of making hasty mistakes so Id rather take my time setting that much.

Does anyone have any pics or experiences with the RF40? I basically "discovered" it today during lots of reading around this board, and I believe it is the same one sold at HF (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=42827), and seems (by apperance and specification) to share the same table and maybe base with the RF45. I ask because, due to entire head assembly being mounted in front of the column, and the swivel providing a flat rear surface to mount to, it might be relatively simple to convert it to a square-column setup (whether by modifying the stock column via maybe a milled square tube slipped and secured over the round part, or creating an entirely new one). This means the RF40 could be purchased for around 1060 from HF (at the current 999 price), and then about 200-300 put into it, and I could end up with a better Z-axis assembly than the RF45, for still, at minimum, about 200 less than even the Lathemasters RF45 (which would still be about 1450-1500 after shipping).

And, here is a specific question:
Should I expect the RF40 from HF to have the same table and travel as the one from Grizzly ([http://www.grizzly.com/products/Gear...-Drill/G1126)?

Isnt it true that all the carriers of the Chinese / RF (Thai?) mills now carry the same versions of each model? Like, the X3 from HF is listed differently than the X3 from Grizzly, but one person on here bought it and said that they are the same, just that the HF specs are wrong. I also notice that the table and base from the RF31 from Grizzly (http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Mill-Drill/G1006) might be the same, with the same listed 24" X-travel (though shorter Y-travel, for whatever reason). This makes me wonder if the same table, and maybe even the base, is shared between their larger mills, which leads me to believe that all their new models would share the same table / base (and thus travels), indicating that HF is simply wrong again about the listed travels.

Err... let me shorten that a bit. Can anyone verify the RF40's table size / travel based on experience? Or maybe confirm that all RF40 versions are the same unless specifically mentioned (like the IH RF45, since it was known to be bigger and better than the other 45 clones, and I believe advertised that way)?

Sorry if I was rambling!

*edit*
Edited a few things.

BTW, uses for the mill in the long run will be primarily small-scale production of automotive flanges (in mostly mild steel, with occasional aluminum and SS work) in thicknesses from .125" to .375", as well as other things like billet alumnum RC car parts, and other things. I would also like the capability of things like surfacing cylinder heads (something Id think the X3 could be made to do) and small engine blocks (something that would require a bit more than the X3 I think could handle). I know a vertical mill would be best for those engine operations but dont have the budget, and probably not the space for a bridgeport or something like that.

I have other things Id want to do also, but they arent really any more challenging than what Ive already mentioned.

Thanks!

[Runner4404spd]

ok, a couple of basic points first...

1. for mild steel i would wait for the RF45 version or even the IH model, the X3 may do it but i like knowing there is extra in the machine.
2. the xylotex kit is not designed to run anything that large. its usefulness ends at the X2. i have seen a few X3 users use that kit, but if your going to go with steppers get geckos.
3. if you have to get the geckos, i say get servos.

maybe build an X2 first and see how it runs. the use it to build the parts for the larger mill once the small one is cnc'd

[davo727]

Those round column mills will be nothing but a nightmare, Trying to mod one into a square column = nightmare. I would say either get a X3 or a rf45-7045 style mill. Where are you at? Wholesale tool has stores in mi, in, nc, ok, fl, tx and ma. And no I dont work for them but I have a ZX 7045 I got there last year. Picked in up at the Houston store. Mine is a little different from this one http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/p...ovetail_Column I think the specs are wrong on their webpage on this one cause mine has the same size table and I have 24 in X travel and had about 9 in Y travel before I modded it , now mine has 11 inches y travel. All I did was extend the slot in the base for the Y leadscrew nut and I removed the indicator dial off the Y handwheel shaft to allow the y slide to come forward all the way until it touches the handwheel at 11 inches forward travel.

[JMcDonald]

Im in Central Oklahoma, actually. I noticed that side, but with either shipping or tax its gonna be around 1600, which would take me a while to save up. I started a business over the summer, but as school has started to get more difficult, I want to cut down the time I needed to spend in the shop manually fabricating things down by selling only things that were either made by CNC milling, or a CNC milled part plus a weld or few. So, with school requiring more and more time now, I dont know how long Id have to make that extra 500 bucks just to get started. The sooner I got the mill, the sooner Id be able to make the shift from mostly hand-crafted items and custom fabrication work, to machine-crafted items, which would really make my life easier.


As for my steppers, yeah I bought the kit when I was looking at smaller mills (I am no longer in a wood-floored shop, so the weight is much less of a factor now). However, I think I could get away with, at most, gearing down the steppers to get more torque, and maybe even going with finer leadscrews. But Id really like to try to get them to work since I already have them.


And I know trying to convert a round column to a square column mill is never as easy as it sounds, but I do think that this particular round-column would be easiest to convert due to the head layout.

Thanks for the posts! Anyone have more pics of these (RF40), specifically head shots from the back / side? This side pic is the only one I can find:


*edit*

BTW, converting to square column would not be a huge priority. If worse comes to worse, Id just use the spindle for the Z-axis for a while. Even using the spindle, I am confident I could get it to work with CNC for most of the things I wanted. Id obviously face the challanges of having to re-tram the head between different types of jobs, but if I were doing mostly flanges for a while (or some other job that is a repeat of the same type of work), then I wouldnt to touch the head anyways. Then, when I finally got some column assembly done, I could just set up the new Z-axis accordingly, and have a true full-travel Z-axis.

*edit*

BTW: Found a pic of the RF40's base.
davo727, did your ZAY45's base look like this?:

[philbur]

I have a RF40 clone sitting in a corner in my garage (unused). I bought a square column CNC machine.

Buying a round column in order to convert to CNC is not the best idea. Buying a round column in order to convert to a square column is an even worse idea (actually it's crazy). A couple of steps further back and you will be thinking, if I buy some iron ore I could convert it into to a VMC.

Joking aside, if your budget will not stretch to an RF45 type then get the X3 and get on with it. Sidestepping to an RF40 because you can't stretch to a RF45 is just not logical.

Regards
Phil

And I know trying to convert a round column to a square column mill is never as easy as it sounds, but I do think that this particular round-column would be easiest to convert due to the head layout.

[JMcDonald]

Could you post pics of your RF40 please? Like around the head/column area?

Also, what are the table dimensions and travels of your RF40?

Thanks.

[philbur]

Table is 28 3/4" x 8 1/4"

x and y is 19 1/4" x 10 5/8"

spindle stroke is 5"

pictures as requested.

Could you post pics of your RF40 please? Like around the head/column area?

Also, what are the table dimensions and travels of your RF40?

Thanks.

[JMcDonald]

Ah ok thanks. I think I will just keep it between the X3 and 45 machines. Thanks for the advice everyone!

[davo727]

Very wise choice grasshopper Good luck on your mill shopping. Dave

[JMcDonald]

Philbur, how old is your RF40 mill? It looks different than this one (how the column mounts to the base):



Could anyone else verify if all RF40s would have the same table as the one Grizzly lists, with the same travel as the RF40?:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Gear...ll-Drill/G1126

It also seems that the RF31 shares the same table (32.X by 9.5), looking at the grizzly site and www.fignoggle.com.

Still just checking out the options. Please bear with me . Just trying to learn as much as I can before making any final decisions. I would be a little more willing to take my time on this if the sale on the X3 from Grizzly was going on longer, but I have 10 days to decide at this point, before the X3 gets as expensive as the RF40.

[philbur]

It's about 12 years old. It’s Taiwanese (by Bemato) not main land China. RF40 in reality is a generic name for a round column, geared head, mill/drill. There is quite a wide variation out there.

I though you had decided on an X3 or a RF45. You had better not be back-sliding on us.

Don’t forget to budget for tooling. You can very quickly get upto USD1,000 +

Phil

Philbur, how old is your RF40 mill? It looks different than this one (how the column mounts to the base)

[JMcDonald]

I really am trying to stay in one place . But I by trying to learn everything I can, I am hoping to not do something Ill regret.

1) I dont want to buy the X3 and wish I had saved for something bigger.

2) I dont want to now decide to save for a 45, and several months down the road find myself still mill-less, and wish I had simply bought an X3 or RF40 while they were on sale.

3) I dont want to buy an X3 thinking I am only losing an inch or so in each direction, only to find out that the RF40 in question shares the same ~24 x 9 travel.

See my delimas?

The main purpose of this thread is to find out whether or not the RF40 is still a viable option for me. The main concerns were the head / attachment, and the table / travel. I am not too bothered by the head / column attachment as far as modifications go, but I still dont know if the RF40 from HF would come with the 9.5 x 32.25 table like the one from Grizzly, which would be almost a requirement to make it worth going through the extra hassle of making it work. But, still, its not looking good for the RF40, heh.

*edit*

Ok, I think I really am just about settled on the X3. Thanks so much for all the help, everyone!

[pzzamakr1980]

Good man, I have the X3 and I love it. I would like an IH mill, but that can wait. Also, dont slide and get the round column.

[philbur]

But surely you already know the travels/table size for the HF RF40 clone. Below is an extract from the their web site.

ITEM 42827-0VGA

6 Spindle speeds: 95, 175, 310, 450, 850, 1500 RPM
Table size: 27-1/2''L x 8-1/4''W
Y-travel: 6-13/16''
X-travel: 19-13/16''

You are not going to like the 1500 rpm spindle speed. You could of course throw the gearbox and motor away and fit a three phase motor and VFD and take it to 4,500 rpm. But by now you are throwing away half of what you have paid for, in order to get what you want.

I am curious as to why you are not concerned about converting a round column to a square column. It is by no means a trivial task

I really am trying to stay in one place . But I by trying to learn everything I can, I am hoping to not do something Ill regret.

1) I dont want to buy the X3 and wish I had saved for something bigger.

2) I dont want to now decide to save for a 45, and several months down the road find myself still mill-less, and wish I had simply bought an X3 or RF40 while they were on sale.

3) I dont want to buy an X3 thinking I am only losing an inch or so in each direction, only to find out that the RF40 in question shares the same ~24 x 9 travel.

See my delimas?

The main purpose of this thread is to find out whether or not the RF40 is still a viable option for me. The main concerns were the head / attachment, and the table / travel. I am not too bothered by the head / column attachment as far as modifications go, but I still dont know if the RF40 from HF would come with the 9.5 x 32.25 table like the one from Grizzly, which would be almost a requirement to make it worth going through the extra hassle of making it work. But, still, its not looking good for the RF40, heh.

*edit*

Ok, I think I really am just about settled on the X3. Thanks so much for all the help, everyone!

[JMcDonald]

Well, HF has shown to be wrong before on their sizes, and even Grizzly shows several different table sizes and travels. Hell, in one listing, they actually list two different travel ranges! So, Id rather go by what people actually get, rather than what is advertised.

About the round > square column conversion. Here is my logic:

1) The back of the head that swivels would have to be ground flat to work at any angle, right? Or at least, ground parallel to the column.

2) There are three bolts that hold the head steady to the column, and those seem to do the job, especially if they were Grade 8 bolts.

Putting those together, it makes sense to me that it would be *relatively* simple to make a plate, out of somewhere between 1/2" to 1" thick steel, with three studs in it that fit the stock swivel bolt pattern. That plate would bolt to the back of the head. The plate would then bolt to linear bearings mounted on the square column that itself would be pretty strait-forward to make. By "relatively," I mean that you could even make it with the mill itself. Take off the head and mark out / measure the bolt pattern for the bolts that go through the head from the column mount. Then, using that pattern, use the mill to fabricate the plate. This would require no permanent modification to the mill (wouldnt need to do any drilling / cutting on the head, etc). The column would be made of simple plates and mounted to the base using the stock mounts.

Of course there are complications with any first-time custom build, but that was the jist of it.

[davo727]

The main purpose of this thread is to find out whether or not the RF40 is still a viable option for me. The main concerns were the head / attachment, and the table / travel. I am not too bothered by the head / column attachment as far as modifications go, but I still dont know if the RF40 from HF would come with the 9.5 x 32.25 table like the one from Grizzly, which would be almost a requirement to make it worth going through the extra hassle of making it work. But, still, its not looking good for the RF40, heh.

*edit*

Ok, I think I really am just about settled on the X3. Thanks so much for all the help, everyone!

You mention head and column attachment mods on a round column-- How do you think you would get straight linear motion up and down? Im not sure how you would be planning on making the round column z work? Anyway X3 sounds like a good plan if it works for your budget. Talley-Ho


PS- PHILBUR - Are you really in Norway? What do you do there? Are the chicks all hot as hell over there? Maybe I will visit sometime.

[tmarks11]

The plate would then bolt to linear bearings mounted on the square column that itself would be pretty strait-forward to make.

I think that you will spend more money converting a crappy round column mill into something else then it would cost to buy a RF-45 clone square dovetail mill from lathemaster. I gotta belive that just a couple linear bearings would not give you the same rigidity as a dovetail column.

You want to work on engine blocks? Keep your eye on your local craigslist; someone in my area just sold a Bridgeport for $750. Maybe you can find something big enough that is used in your price range.

[cota]

in all your reading on here, have you found anyone that recommended
a round column mill over a square column?
I don't think so.
pay heed my son, they tempt you with lower prices
because nobody wants to buy one at regular prices
when they can get a square column for the same price.
why waste your time modifying an RF40 to give you something inferior to an X3
that costs the same?
A Super X3 will give a little more travel than the X3 but still cost less than the RF45.
Or just wait till next Wednesday and return all your gifts to get the extra cash for the RF45.
hohoho

[JMcDonald]

I think that you will spend more money converting a crappy round column mill into something else then it would cost to buy a RF-45 clone square dovetail mill from lathemaster. I gotta belive that just a couple linear bearings would not give you the same rigidity as a dovetail column.

For something like this Id probably use two 15-25mm rails with 2 blocks on each rail. Everything Ive heard says that the rails are usually stronger than what they are mounted to, and I think I could build a pretty sturdy column setup.

You want to work on engine blocks? Keep your eye on your local craigslist; someone in my area just sold a Bridgeport for $750. Maybe you can find something big enough that is used in your price range.

I havent found anything really. Everything on ebay that is cheap is pickup only since it is usually just people dumping old tools and dont care for the hassle of shipping it. There is nothing in my area on craigslist, which is suprising considering that OKC is a major industrial area. I might call around some local shops and ask, though.

I am not so much focused on boring cylinders or line boring main bearings, but Id like the capacity to mill smooth the head and block surfaces. If whatever I end up happens to be beefy enough AND accurate enough to do jobs like that, cool. If not, no sweat.

[JMcDonald]

in all your reading on here, have you found anyone that recommended
a round column mill over a square column?
I don't think so.

No, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

why waste your time modifying an RF40 to give you something inferior to an X3
that costs the same?

I wouldnt do it if I thought it would be inferior, heh. If I could get 24 x 9 horizontal travel, vs 16 x 6 horizontal travel, Id call that a pretty big improvement. If I had more power to use bigger cutters and bits, Id call that an improvement. The greater quill travel and throat depth would also be handy. If I *could* modify it to a square column, then Id also be able to at least match the X3 in column rigidity, usability, and vertical travel.

However, given that the RF40 doesn't seem to have the extended table / travels (the only one that seems guaranteed is the RF40 from Grizzly, but that's 2500... which would be blown out of water by an IH '45 for the same price), then it is not really worth it. For the work Id put into the RF40 to get the benefits of the X3 (square column), I could just as easily build a new base for the X3 that gives more travel. I already have 25mm rails that are 20" long that would allow 10-12" of travel in the Y-direction (for maybe cases where I wanted the table to move out from underneath the spindle), and Id buy linear rails or make friction slides (probably using brass and some form of steel, and probably fully supported) to give an X-axis travel of 24", or even more if I really wanted.

I know that sounds like I could just save the same money and buy an RF45, but I dont imagine Id spend more than 400 making such additions, meaning the cost is still about 1350, versus 1650 for the cheapest '45s I can find. Lastly, of course, buying the X3 now would be much better for business, versus saving for the RF45 and not making much (which would actually compound the problem of saving for a '45, heh).

A Super X3 will give a little more travel than the X3 but still cost less than the RF45.

The SX3 has the same travels, just a better head (whose advantages are not used or reduntant for CNC).